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Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 27

stsyn
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
Elements of Harmony - Had an OC in the 2022 Community Collab
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Best Artist - Providing quality, Derpibooru-exclusive artwork
Fine Arts - Two hundred uploads with a score of over a hundred (Safe/Suggestive)
Economist -
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes

Moderator
@xbi  
I can tag some pictures as ‘luciferamon eye style’, ‘lumineko head shape’ and ‘ears from imalou’.
 
Probably at this point overtagging starts. These tag won’t solve anything except… potential (?) attribution. I meant artist:* tags, though, and I can easily imagine this. Ofc tags is not a “no fun allowed” zone, but it will be just “tagging for a purpose of tagging”.
 
I can believe this if Rainbow Dash was not in the training set. But it is actually is in the training set. And we can perform an experiment — if we remove Rainbow Dash form training set, I am 100% sure Rainbow Dashes will disappear from output.
 
Not completelly . This approach might work with a very different ponies, but good luck determining Applejack.
 
I can write my mirroring script as unreadable “Brainfuck” language complied to assembly to make it harder to proove that it uses existing character to produce the same character. Or I can just hide sources from you. Still you will believe more your eyes and don’t try to spend your time to proove that this script get mirrored images in not-random way. You will just ban mirrored reuploads without any proofs.
 
Still depends of realization and presentation. If you present your script as “put this image inside and receive output with same character”, then original character tag will apply. Right now TPDNE is presented as “The ponies might actually already exist” (if they at least group output on their site, then maybe). 15.ai, for comparison, presented as “Have text voiced by this character”.
 
“rainbow dash with horn” or “wrong eye color” or “alternative hair style”
 
Keep in mind, that artistic mistakes/decision is not the same thing, as “pollution of output with different characters’ details”.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 26

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 25

xbi
Fine Arts - Two hundred uploads with a score of over a hundred (Safe/Suggestive)
Da Magicks! - Merited Fine Arts badge with only their own art
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes
A Really Hyper Artist - 500+ images under their artist tag
Best Artist - Providing quality, Derpibooru-exclusive artwork
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

@stsyn
 
>Oh, and wait until some artists will recognize their style and ask to tag them.  
BTW, why not. I can tag some pictures as ‘luciferamon eye style’, ‘lumineko head shape’ and ‘ears from imalou’. Even if they don’t have these artist pictures as input, still why not. There were already tags like ‘I don’t believe it’s not artist X’ for human-made pictures too. They possibly cause some practical issues because of offending both artists, I think and got deleted because of this.
 
>Right now it’s a question of realization, you cannot be 100% sure, that this “Rainbow Dash” was generated solely by “Rainbow Dash” pics. And it causes huge amount of borderline cases:  
I can believe this if Rainbow Dash was not in the training set. But it is actually is in the training set. And we can perform an experiment - if we remove Rainbow Dash form training set, I am 100% sure Rainbow Dashes will disappear from output. The Celestia-like images contains this golden ear piercing in output because all original pictures of Celestia have this part of her crown in ear.
 
I can write my mirroring script as unreadable “Brainfuck” language complied to assembly to make it harder to proove that it uses existing character to produce the same character. Or I can just hide sources from you. Still you will believe more your eyes and don’t try to spend your time to proove that this script get mirrored images in not-random way. You will just ban mirrored reuploads without any proofs. And I have to proove that these mirrored pixels where created randomly, and YOU don’t have to proove the opposite. We have pretty similar situation for this AI tool - it takes existing characters and produce these existing characters. So it is actually task of someone else to provide proofs that this tool generates canon character by accident, not because training set. Now we have quite strong evidences that they generated not by accident
 
Even if existing character was generated totally by accident in fair way without any MLP show content in input, still it useful to tag as this character for searching. It removes legal/IP problems, but it does not remove the practical benefits from tagging as existing character.
 
If program takes Rainbow Dash in input and creates Rainbow Dash in ouput, presumption of character reuse should be used, not presumption of “Rainbow Dash was created just by accident”. The only way to prove that Rainbow Dash pictures were created randomly is to remove Rainbow Dash from input and see that the tool still creates this huge amount of Rainbow Dashes.
 
Yes, there borderline examples where some details are missing. I don’t think is important, and can be easily tagged too as “rainbow dash with horn” or “wrong eye color” or “alternative hair style”

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 24

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 23

DGCK81LNN
Solar Supporter - Fought against the New Lunar Republic rebellion on the side of the Solar Deity (April Fools 2023).
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Philomena - For helping others attend the 2021 community collab
Artist -

A Chinese brony (kinda)
@stsyn  
Gosh, that makes a lot of sense. I’m about to change my mind…
 
How about this. No matter how they look, don’t add character tags, but just pony, oc, unnamed oc. Visible horn/wings should be tagged. If it really looks like a canon character, tag not [character].
 
*sigh* This is how tags work: nothing can be fully defined by just tags.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 22

stsyn
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
Elements of Harmony - Had an OC in the 2022 Community Collab
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Best Artist - Providing quality, Derpibooru-exclusive artwork
Fine Arts - Two hundred uploads with a score of over a hundred (Safe/Suggestive)
Economist -
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes

Moderator
@xbi  
This is very philosophical question, why random generator in artist mind is something different from random generator inside the generator
 
Because random generator in artist mind has multiple steps, and choosing the character to draw — is one of them.
 
Also, it is was AI generator developer intention, to take existing characters into training set.
 
Right now it’s a question of realization, you cannot be 100% sure, that this “Rainbow Dash” was generated solely by “Rainbow Dash” pics. And it causes huge amount of borderline cases:  

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 21

DGCK81LNN
Solar Supporter - Fought against the New Lunar Republic rebellion on the side of the Solar Deity (April Fools 2023).
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Philomena - For helping others attend the 2021 community collab
Artist -

A Chinese brony (kinda)
  • The ponies might actually already exist, but these specific images of them do not.
This is from the AI’s website. The AI(‘s maintainer) admits that images of already existing characters can be produced.
 
Again, the AI itself doesn’t tell who it’s drawing, so I guess we really should just tag what we see.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 20

xbi
Fine Arts - Two hundred uploads with a score of over a hundred (Safe/Suggestive)
Da Magicks! - Merited Fine Arts badge with only their own art
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes
A Really Hyper Artist - 500+ images under their artist tag
Best Artist - Providing quality, Derpibooru-exclusive artwork
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

@stsyn
 
This is very philosophical question, why random generator in artist mind is something different from random generator inside the AI. We don’t have scientific non-falsifiable method to verify what is ‘intention’ inside some process, let it be human mind or ‘AI’.  
But for legal point of view or practical search purposes this philosophical question is not important.
 
I can write script which reuploads back to to derpi random mirrored image from derpi. Technically it is the same, script generates new picture withot ‘intentions’. I can do a little bit more sophisticated transformation than mirroring and mix features of many pictures. When the program mixes features of Fluttershy with features of Fluttershy, it gets Fluttershy, not “new character”.
 
Also, it was AI generator developer intention, to take existing characters into training set.
 
Also, artist can use random dices to randomly select pictures from derpibooru to mix them. There is no difference if program roll dices.
 
If I totally randombly choose pictures to trace and features of some random character, it still will be trace of one picture with features of this some character, which can fall under DNP of original artist. If some program perform this trace, it causes the same results.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 19

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 18

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 17

loxaxs

@stsyn
 
Does this mean that your answer is (A2.2 (see my first post ))?
 
Not tagging images according to what is inside is a loss of information to Derpibooru, and a loss of value to Derpibooru users. This would mean that to search among images produced by artist:thisponydoesnotexist, Derpibooru users would have to turn to some other image board – which is a pain because no other image board is as big as Derpibooru for (cute) pony images.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 16

stsyn
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
Elements of Harmony - Had an OC in the 2022 Community Collab
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Best Artist - Providing quality, Derpibooru-exclusive artwork
Fine Arts - Two hundred uploads with a score of over a hundred (Safe/Suggestive)
Economist -
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes

Moderator
While AI uses canon/oc characters as training base and results of course looks similar to the training base, keep in mind, that there is still a huge difference:
 
Unlike artists, who are specifically intended to draw something (“today I gonna draw some Fluttershy”) and expecting specific results of their work, this AI just generates art. You can’t tell this AI “please draw Fluttershy”. If they produce something, that looks like Fluttershy, you can’t ask it “do you know, what did you just draw?”, because it didn’t (and you didn’t) ever chose, which pony to draw.
 
Until there is no AI, which you can ask for an art of specific character, or which will at least mark resulting characters, results should not be tagged as them. We allow tagging 15.ai results with characters because of this.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 15

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 14

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 13

Cloppershy
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Pone Addict
@hexado  
I fully agree with your points.
 
I could take one of the generated images I like, edit out the artifacts to clean it up, maybe slightly color correct it if the colors don’t match, and upload that as an edit. I would have to tag it fluttershy because I clearly had authorial intent to make it Fluttershy, and not any other pony. I just used the generated “OC” as a starting point. And my edit would still be indistinguishable from a generated image for any outsider.  
(Edit: Looks like someone did it already >>2400563)
 
Or what I could do is draw a Fluttershy image, but then tag it as oc and link to one of the generated images as a reference. I will insist that it is not Fluttershy, but the OC generated by the AI.
 
I won’t do either of those things because I’m not petty, but I’m using these examples to point out the inconsistency that necessarily arises from the current ruling.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 12

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 11

hexado
Lady's Wink -
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Hard Work - Merited Perfect Pony Plot Provider badge with only their own art
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

  1. Something is using existing pictures of the character to produce the character. Something is “Artificial Intelligence” or SFM screenshot or human with pen and paper or human with some advanced tools like Photoshop or human with command line tools or “Artificial Stupidity” or mix of all this. Doesn’t matter.
     
  2. Output looks like this character.
     
    Why any reason to not tag as this character?
     
    Sometimes there are slight deviations like other eye color, they can be tagged too. There are some “grey zone” for some outputs when there are too much deviations, but why remove tags when the ouput have exactly all features of the character without any ambiguity?

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 10

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 9

hexado
Lady's Wink -
A Really Classy Artist - 250+ images under their artist tag
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Hard Work - Merited Perfect Pony Plot Provider badge with only their own art
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

Is the description “Do not tag these with canon character tags no matter how they look.” Is this some official mods decision?
 
This is very-very-very-very-very-very-very-very controversional. Very-very.  
Because what we see in the image is defined by what we see in the image. Not the type of intelligence which/who created the picture. Also this ‘AI’ just mix existing character to produce the same characters. It does not mix rainbow with horses and birds to produce Rainbow Dash. It mixes Rainbow Dash with Rainbow Dash to produce Rainbow Dash.  
If I process Rainbow Dash picture with some tool and get a bit reshaped Rainbow Dash picture, why does it stop to be Rainbow Dash? The ‘intelligence’ in the name of some algorithm is just letters in the algorithm fashionable name, not some well-defined algorithm feature. Actually all these fashionable ‘AI’ is linear algebra matrix multiplication, similar to linear algebra matrix multiplication in photoshop filters. ‘intelligence’ is mostly hype fashion word to get more attraction to the algorithm, no much difference with ‘artificial stupidity algorithms’ for any tagging purpose.
 
Also, if I redraw the ai-generated picture of Rainbow Dash or use it as reference, does it make my drawn character non-Rainbow Dash?
 
I could possibly sligtly agree that AI producing Rainbow Dash as output without Rainbow Dash input is not Rainbow Dash in legal sense (not in common sense though for searching purposes). But if algorithm gets Rainbow Dash in input and produces Rainbow Dash in output then the output is Rainbow Dash from any point of view. Legal or searching or anything.
 
Also, at least, even if this is official unrevertable decision don’t tag these characters, please at least add tag ‘non X’ if you remove tag ‘X’. So they can be searchable as ‘not X’ or ‘*X*’ at least. Removing tag ‘fluttershy’ without providing any other way to find it as ‘*fluttershy*’ is tag vandalism.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 8

DGCK81LNN
Solar Supporter - Fought against the New Lunar Republic rebellion on the side of the Solar Deity (April Fools 2023).
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Philomena - For helping others attend the 2021 community collab
Artist -

A Chinese brony (kinda)
In my opinion, “this pony does not exist” is currently more like “this pony pic does not exist before”, for the AI can actually “learn to draw” a specific pony.
 
For each case in @Cloppershy ’s post:  
  1. just tag [character]  
  2. [character], wrong eye color  
  3. [character], multiple horns  
  4. maybe [character1], [character2], fusion…?

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 7

🐴
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
Solar Guardian - Refused to surrender in the face of the Lunar rebellion and showed utmost loyalty to the Solar Empire (April Fools 2023).
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Magical Inkwell - Wrote MLP fanfiction consisting of at least around 1.5k words, and has a verified link to the platform of their choice

IRL 🎠 stallion
@Cloppershy  
I agree with your reasoning that they should earn character tags for this exact reason: if it looks indistinguishable from Rainbow Dash, it should be tagged as Rainbow Dash.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 6

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 5

loxaxs

@LightningBolt
 
Here’s a copy of the post I wrote before I discovered this one:
 
Have a look at this search. Today, 2020-07-17, you’ll see it contains a lot of images that should be tagged fluttershy, twilight sparkle, etc. but aren’t. I’ve tried tagging them, but it turns out that not everybody agrees on whether these images should receive the character tags.
This is due to thisponydoesnotexist being an AI (a generative adversarial network to be specific), and to the name of the site: “This Pony Does Not Exist”… if the pony does not exist, it cannot be a know character, and must be a new OC each time…
So here are two questions:
  • (A) Should we tag the images: according to “what they look like” (A1) or according to “what they were meant to be represent” for the author (A2)
Note that in the case of (A2) we still need to decide if the person selecting the image in the pool generated by the AI has the value of an author, in the absence of any other author (yes (A2.1)) (no (A2.2)). Please also note that there are thisponydoesnotexist images tagged “not fluttershy” by the uploader, so the difference between (A1) and (A2.1) matters.
  • (B) (from a more practical viewpoint) What should we do about the tagging conflict of the thisponydoesnotexist images?
 
So yes, LightningBolt, I believe you should look into question (A), – how do we tag images?

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 4

Cloppershy
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Pone Addict
It only applies to main characters because they are the only ones frequent enough in the dataset that they are exactly reproduced by the network (but I also would have no problem if someone tags a random background pony or OC if the image looks exactly like it).
 
But I don’t see how tagging these images would be “lumping them in” with other images (tagged as that specific character, I assume), because for someone who doesn’t know about this they are absolutely indistinguishable from other images of that character.

Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 3

LightningBolt
Umbrella - For Patreon supporters
Lightning Dee - Derpi Supporter
Pixel Perfection - I still call her Lightning Bolt
Silly Pony - Celebrated the 13th anniversary of MLP:FIM, and 40 years of MLP!
Shimmering Smile - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of Equestria Girls!
Lunar Hero - Went above and beyond in the name of Lunar freedom, they will be remembered in legends and folklore as paragons of heroism for generations (April Fools 2023).
Flower Trio - Helped others get their OC into the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Roseluck - Had their OC in the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Chaotic Little Trees - 1000+ images under their artist tag
King Sombra - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of The Crystal Empire!

Senior Moderator
Undead inside
It looks like it, sure, but it wouldn’t be fair to lump it in with the rest and it’s still one big assumption and people will of course ONLY do it with main characters and nothig else. Best to have none of them have character tagsinstead of playing games.

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