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Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14549

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14548

AaronMk
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Sky funeral
Anyways, let us also look at the western Bourgiouse/Capitalist Republic and see their best misses since we’re going to strawman about about how communism isn’t viable because Stalin.
 
full
 
Oliver Cromwell - lead a Parliamentarian Revolution against the king of England, ostensibly for the purpose of creating a full parliamentarian Republic in England. Instead seized total control and banned Christmas. Decapitated, replaced by the restoration of the king by the Dutch.
 
full
 
Napoleon Bonaparte - Elected to the highest executive office in Revolutionary France. Crowned himself emperor. Conquered Europe. Deposed a couple times but kept returning. Eventually exiled for good where he is recorded as saying he finally realized why the French wanted him in the first place: to be the French George Washington and not about monarch. Died on an island.
 
full
 
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - President of Mexico a half dozen times, each time deposed for being dictatorial but each time coming back proclaiming himself some military hero. Seized total control of all the things. Would have ruled for life if counter coups and eventual final exile.
 
full
 
Louis-Napoleon III Bonaparte - elected as president. Crowned self as Emperor. San Coullettes spun in grave. Beat by Bismarck. Paris Commune happened.
 
full
 
Sanford B. Dole - Was named President of the Republic of Hawaii after a coup other-throwing queen Liliuokalani. Effectively ruled with an iron fist and wrote the native Hawaiians out of the government, suspending many righteously upheld Republican values such as trial by jury, free speech, and so on. Got rewarded with territorial governorship on the annexation of Hawaii by the United States.
 
full
 
Chiang Kai-Shek - Elected president by National Committee in Beijing, China for China. Used army to ban the Chinese left from politics. Got chased to Taiwan where he begged for money from the US. Turned Taiwan into a shoe factory. His party since has been very difficult to uproot from power.
 
full
 
Fazlollah Zahedi - Deposed in coup by the US and British because Mossadegh was threatening BP oil. Tortured a bunch of people and basically ineffectual. Part of the reason Iran hates us.
 
full
 
Pinochet - Installed as president in a coup by Reagan. Became a meme.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14547

Cyborg_pony
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
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Because communism failed under Stalin does not mean it is nonviable, because even in cases contemporary to Stalin during and after his rule we have snapshots of communist society that functioned. This is to suggest the Republican model of government is untenable because Oliver Cromwell named himself more of a dictator king than the ones he supplanted.
Every time that a so called communist nation has been proclaimed it has been hijacked by power hungry dictators. Every single ONE!
 
It’s communism up until the death tolls and inequality is discovered. Then is use every excuse to deny reality.
 
@Commune  
I dunno. Most communist countries I’ve seen have gone from thriving to economic disparity, poverty and massive wealth inequality, while nations using a capitalist system have bounced back without uprooting the entire government system that causes the very problem the communist countries now face.
 
It would appear what causes destruction, is a mindset that believe being owed everything.
 
It seems very much like greed and jealousy is the root of communism.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14546

AaronMk
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Sky funeral
@Commune
Capitalism will eventually end. BUT it will be replaced by something that will not be pure communism. I am not under the delusion that capitalism will go on forever because we have seen economic structures change over the centuries.
 
>He believes something other than full communism will replace capitalism
 
 
I take it you read Nick Land.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14545

RadioDemon
Duck - User has been known to often resemble a waterfowl
Wallet After Summer Sale -

So many orphans~Alastor
@Commune  
Capitalism will eventually end. BUT it will be replaced by something that will not be pure communism. I am not under the delusion that capitalism will go on forever because we have seen economic structures change over the centuries.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14544

AaronMk
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
Flower Trio - Helped others get their OC into the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
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Tree of Harmony - Drew someone's OC for the 2022 Community Collab
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Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Philomena - For helping others attend the 2021 community collab
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.

Sky funeral
Because communism failed under Stalin does not mean it is nonviable, because even in cases contemporary to Stalin during and after his rule we have snapshots of communist society that functioned. This is to suggest the Republican model of government is untenable because Oliver Cromwell named himself more of a dictator king than the ones he supplanted.
Every time that a so called communist nation has been proclaimed it has been hijacked by power hungry dictators. Every single ONE!
 
full
 
LeJoggingManThroughCapitalChucklesAtYou.jpeg
 
||  
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LeYugoslavManWhoContinuallyLiquidatedCentralAuthorityToCompositeMembersLaughingAtYou.jpeg  
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ElMexicanGuerillaManWhoSworeHimselfAndHisSoldiersOutOfPoliticsOfRegionHeLiberated.jpeg
 
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LeCommunistMartyrsPurifyingCommunism.jpeg

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14543

Commune
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đźš™
I would like to add this discussion is coming from me just critiquing capitalism  
Are you people so afraid of criticism of the dominant ideology that you would just bring in strawmans every time ?  
So much for the free marketplace of ideas

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14542

RadioDemon
Duck - User has been known to often resemble a waterfowl
Wallet After Summer Sale -

So many orphans~Alastor
Because communism failed under Stalin does not mean it is nonviable, because even in cases contemporary to Stalin during and after his rule we have snapshots of communist society that functioned. This is to suggest the Republican model of government is untenable because Oliver Cromwell named himself more of a dictator king than the ones he supplanted.
 
Every time that a so called communist nation has been proclaimed it has been hijacked by power hungry dictators. Every single ONE!

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14541

Commune
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Friendship, Art, and Magic (2017) - Celebrated Derpibooru's five year anniversary with friends.
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

đźš™
@Cyborg_pony  
“Communists are just jealous”  
Uh huh  
full  
full  
Or perhaps capitalism is an inherently unstable system that causes destruction inherent within its very nature

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14540

Cyborg_pony
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@Commune  
Sure. It was the “Nazis” that took over.
 
So, either communism either creates dictatorships or Nazis?
 
By the way, you forget the reason the SOCIALIST WORKER PARTY took over, was because communists were demanding German have their possessions removed and were attacking them, making them out to be sympathetic.
 
Kind of a parallel of recent events in a way.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14539

AaronMk
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
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Sky funeral
@Cyborg_pony
Actually a lot of communist regimes that weren’t dictatorships were taken over by the US Government or literal Nazis and guess what, it turn those societies into even worse shitholes
Grenada, the German Revolution, revolutionary Catalonia, the Zapatistas(which still exists), the Hungarian Soviet Republic, Shinmin Autonomous Region, the Paris commune
None of them were stateless but were more or less communist
 
Let us not forget based S A N K A R A
 
full
 
>You will never affect such grand land reform as him and double national food production so the nation may feed itself, and set the country on firm footing to perhaps be the wealthiest in Africa before being Tupac’d and cut into pieces and replaced and your country falls back into being the poorest again.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14538

Commune
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đźš™
@Cyborg_pony  
Actually a lot of communist regimes that weren’t dictatorships were taken over by the US Government or literal Nazis and guess what, it turn those societies into even worse shitholes  
Grenada, the German Revolution, revolutionary Catalonia, the Zapatistas(which still exists), the Hungarian Soviet Republic, Shinmin Autonomous Region, the Paris commune  
None of them were stateless but were more or less communist

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14537

AaronMk
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
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Philomena - For helping others attend the 2021 community collab
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.

Sky funeral
If a Republic is so great why is only Venice one and Switzerland so impoverished?”
Well, there is one thing they have something in common that might shed light on that, as many have said wasn’t a good idea, but didn’t listen.
Also, many other places of thrived, yet no “stateless” communist society has, since they always just replace it.
With a dictatorship on the bodies of political opponents, useful idiots and the innocent
Also, funny how Distribution of wealth in those “stateless” societies, always seems to end up in the pocket of the leader and a few of his benefactors and friends. It’s almost like it’s a complete lie to get greedy people on their side, then throw them in a ditch when they start wondering where their share of the wealth is.
Just a little forethought.
 
I refer back to my original point and add: are you so sure about that?
 
Even arguably up to the present day societies conforming to socialist models persist. In his book Trauma Farm poet and novelist Brian Brett recounts eighteen years of living on a small farm homestead and in a small farm community, in such anything and everything that can be shared it; agricultural equipment, breeding male animals, work; he relates it to Peter Kropotkin’s seminal work in biological, anthropological, and historical observational study Mutual Air. It’s a fundamental example of the gift economy at play in the modern world, for the mutual support of social relations among themselves.
 
The gift economy isn’t entirely alien, and has been an observed part of primitive society as much as it has been modern society outside of the formal market networks so praised by the liberal left and right and beyond. By existing, it is what the ultra-left would describe as the economy of need, receiving what is needed to do what is needed, because it is implicit in doing what is done you provide the means by which you get what you need to survive as you give to those that gave to you what you need to survive.
 
This sort of model is much close to what may be what we as humans evolved to be involved in. In his book Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging Sebastian Junger (behind the documentary Restrepo) wrote significantly on the paradox of white man in the American colonies, all the way up to the early 20th century abandoning modernity to live with the natives in supposedly primitive society; because the distribution of wealth is more equitable meaning judgement on the individual is based less on what they own, and more on what they do and their value as an individual.
 
And even post Indian-Wars during the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl, Oklahoma Farmers made it a habit to occupy auctions for their neighbors home and property to lock everyone out, bid a penny, and give everything they bought back to the neighbor in solidarity.
 
But the survival of the current model is not because it is inherently ideologically superior, or provides any greater happiness than tribal society. Merely in that right now the material conditions in the world, or the material conditions that it creates perpetuates it. But the moment that changes, the ideology of the present model falls with the material conditions.
 
The idea does not make the reality, the material condition makes the reality is what I am saying. And that a change in the end of the material reality to effect a shift in anything will cause a shift in the ideology. And as long as people are unaware, and oppressed under the pretenses that they are unable to effect change: capitalism will continue to prevail.
 
Because communism failed under Stalin does not mean it is nonviable, because even in cases contemporary to Stalin during and after his rule we have snapshots of communist society that functioned. This is to suggest the Republican model of government is untenable because Oliver Cromwell named himself more of a dictator king than the ones he supplanted.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14536

Cyborg_pony
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@Shirani  
And communist advocates always have an excuse why what they own isn’t to be taken, but everyone else’s should be.
 
When you look real close at it; The supposed “Greed” of capitalism seems to be more from them as well as just jealousy that they do not own what someone else has, so they demand it be taken from them.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14535

RadioDemon
Duck - User has been known to often resemble a waterfowl
Wallet After Summer Sale -

So many orphans~Alastor
@AaronMk  
The same greed that communists criticize capitalists for is inherent in every single person on the planet. It’s one of the reasons why communism will never succeed unless everyone’s needs are met without taking away the stuff they own. Because taking something will ALWAYS breed resentment which will create your enemies that will ultimately destroy you in the long run if you keep being dictatorial.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14534

Cyborg_pony
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
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If a Republic is so great why is only Venice one and Switzerland so impoverished?”
 
Well, there is one thing they have something in common that might shed light on that, as many have said wasn’t a good idea, but didn’t listen.
 
Also, many other places of thrived, yet no “stateless” communist society has, since they always just replace it.
 
With a dictatorship on the bodies of political opponents, useful idiots and the innocent
 
Also, funny how Distribution of wealth in those “stateless” societies, always seems to end up in the pocket of the leader and a few of his benefactors and friends. It’s almost like it’s a complete lie to get greedy people on their side, then throw them in a ditch when they start wondering where their share of the wealth is.
 
Just a little forethought.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14533

AaronMk
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Sky funeral
@AaronMk
So what you’re saying is, it can’t work.
I’ve often heard it said that constantly trying something and expecting different results is the definition of… Something.
I forget what.
 
As opposed to the whole of history where it’s actually been the other way. This in that context sounds a lot like the 13th century noble going, “If a Republic is so great why is only Venice one and Switzerland so impoverished?”
 
It took a massive shift in the distribution of wealth in the 15th century and the continuing trend to build a steadily more powerful middle class for the overthrow of monarchy to be carried out in Europe in the 1790’s or for the social and economic situation in America to empower the American colonies to give them the thought disposing of crown rule would be a good idea, and then the competing, equal economic interests of the drafters of the constitution to shoot down the niche proposals to form an American monarchy. Compared against similar independence movements elsewhere in America, the economic and material wealth was shared among a much broader class of people than a very narrow colonial aristocracy in Central and South America.
 
Otherwise, per Republicanism: that would have died after Oliver Cromwell.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14532

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14531

Cyborg_pony
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
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@AaronMk  
So what you’re saying is, it can’t work.
 
I’ve often heard it said that constantly trying something and expecting different results is the definition of… Something.
 
I forget what.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14530

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14529

AaronMk
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
Flower Trio - Helped others get their OC into the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Crystal Roseluck - Had their OC in the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Tree of Harmony - Drew someone's OC for the 2022 Community Collab
Elements of Harmony - Had an OC in the 2022 Community Collab
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Verified Pegasus - Show us your gorgeous wings!
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Philomena - For helping others attend the 2021 community collab
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.

Sky funeral
@Ereiam
A nation state is the cohesive identity, society, and culture of a large group of people. It’s effectively a group identity that identifies itself as a distinct people and nation. Which means a nation state CANNOT exist without a societal structure. Which is its backbone to keep everyone together. Communism wants to destroy the state which effectively means that to do so it needs to destroy the societal framework upholding the nation-state itself.
 
No, communism wants to destroy the state as it exists as a separate entity from the rest of the whole. As Marx wrote in his earlier Young Hegelian works, man exists simultaneously in two ways: as the political self and the civic self. Both, by keeping the state identity separate from the daily affairs can not become a cohesive whole to unite the individual self. And neither can the state full acknowledge different political individuals through the implicit or the implied recognition of one sort over another (gay and straight, black and white, Christian to Jew, etc.)
 
Certain reforms may be taken to remove the state’s capacity to distinction and thus destroy its ability for the state to recognize that specific facet of the individual self, or for that to be really important and thus it becomes part of the individual civic identity. As he writes in the Jewish Question, a Jew can not be an emancipated person (in mid-19th century Europe) since the nation-state as it existed is recognized as being a strictly Christian State, and being a Christian State can not recognize, and is antagonistic towards those who do not identify as being Christian. The Christian State may grant privileges to make the one nearly as if equals to the other, but the viability of the State then set up as being one thing to another can as well revoke those privileges on account of the state being that, and not dissolved of all capacity to call itself an X-state nominally in service to X-people, where Y-people are merely resident non or quasi-citizens.
 
The state as it exists as an economic reality falls into the class conflict worldview, where those who hold economic property - or economic enclosures as I’ve post-Marx commentaries suggest - are themselves an economic class different from those who must rent, or labor to otherwise produce the value derived from that property. Where the state exists to recognize property and protect it, they are recognized as being the implicit political and legal members of the political state. It is this state, as the state function described before which is to be destroyed.
 
Its much in the same paradigm as early Republican political philosophers such as Thomas Paine who wrote that their Republicanism will abolish government. Because the contemporary government is invested in monarchy as aristocracy. So be destroying the political recognition of the two, to establish a government of the people by the people government is itself destroyed. And to continue with the Paine propositions of government: we come to the smallest acceptable model of government for society as a whole. But Paine himself too recognizes the distinct danger aristocratic or quasi-aristocratic persons have in the Republic where their wealth can serve as a nobility in of itself; he did like to talk about how these people should be taxed more to curb their power. In much the same way Marx recognizes taxation as being a means for the state to curb and limit their own recognition of private property, if not to erode it.

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14528

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14527

Commune
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đźš™
@Shirani  
society can exist without a state  
A state is merely a function of hierarchical class rule, used by one class to maintain their dominant position
 
Communism doesn’t intend to destroy society to destroy the state

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14526

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) » Post 14525

RadioDemon
Duck - User has been known to often resemble a waterfowl
Wallet After Summer Sale -

So many orphans~Alastor
@AaronMk
 
@Ereiam  
A nation state is the cohesive identity, society, and culture of a large group of people. It’s effectively a group identity that identifies itself as a distinct people and nation. Which means a nation state CANNOT exist without a societal structure. Which is its backbone to keep everyone together. Communism wants to destroy the state which effectively means that to do so it needs to destroy the societal framework upholding the nation-state itself.

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