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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9269

Background Pony #2E4C
but you are comparing two different relationships, just because of the alicorn factor, but other than that they have almost no similarity,
It’s like comparing the relationship between Hitch and Sparky and Twilight and Spike just because it’s a pony and dragon relationship
the idea from the beginning was for Misty to leave Opaline who was an abusive mentor in every way.
Twilight and Celestia were a totally different relationship and whether that relationship should have changed or not is another discussion.
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9268

Tiger beetle
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She doesn’t blindly trust Discord.
Yes she does.
Not really, no. Enchanting the Elements so he can’t steal them, and leaving them with Twilight says the exact opposite.
She advocated for releasing a potential ally, so now she gives this ally an important task. If he continues serving Equestria, the safety of ponies is still gonna be in his hands. If she prevents Discord from doing anything of value…then what was the point of reforming him?
Yeah, maybe she should let him prove himself with smaller tasks first. The fact that she puts her little ego project over the safety of her subjects is not a good look for her.
Probably. But again, Celestia’s approach towards such matters is part of her character. It warrants criticism, but I personally do not think any less of her because of how she does things. Clearly has worked out for her, for the most part.
Celestia recognizes she can’t overpower every threat, (especially with the implications of Daybreaker, that she’s holding back a lot), so the all powerful spirit of chaos would be an invaluable tool.
The decision to release him created more problems than it solved, and each of those problems reflects poorly on her decision-making.
Discord can make his own decisions. Celestia isn’t responsible for him for all eternity just because she thought it was a good idea to give him a chance. I think you can only throw so much of that responsibility at her At no point do I think ‘wow, Discord’s being a jerk, I sure wish Celestia left him as a statue.’
But that is also how she trained Twilight, and I wouldn’t expect a different approach from her.
She trusts Discord (a character who has demonstrated zero redeeming qualities by that point) as much as she trusts her own faithful student. This makes her look like a really bad judge of character, and like she has a surface-level understanding of the resources at her disposal.
She trusts him with capturing a single villain. Not reforming her sister, or saving an Empire, or running the country, so no, that isn’t the same amount of trust. Discord can sense magical imbalance, she sends out Discord. You have a resource, you use a resource. Makes him feel important, makes him feel needed. Easy as that.
Bottom line is, Discord WAS doing exactly what she asked of him, he captured Tirek within like 30 seconds.
This is the closest Discord ever comes to completing a basic task successfully.
Except, where he helped cleaned up his mess at the Acres. Or helped clean up Canterlot. Or save Equestria from the changelings. Or helped Big Mac catch up to Sugar Belle.
Celestia had no prior knowledge of Tirek being some sort of master manipulator, so of course she believes Discord’s got this. She didn’t know Tirek would try to sway him with words - the last person he tried to convince to proceed with his plans was Scorpan, his brother, and that utterly failed.
Discord is unpredictable, so it wouldn’t even take a master manipulator.
?
And Discord has a friend in Fluttershy who’d also suffer at Tirek’s hands if he got his way, which provides extra motivation.
So she naively and incorrectly assumed that Discord cared about anyone other than himself. I’ll point out that Discord broke his promise to Fluttershy at the first opportunity in KCaFO. Again, this points to her being a bad judge of character.
KCaFO is literally his first step to reformation. Of course he doesn’t immediately take to it. The only way that’d happen is if Twilight blasted him with ‘the reforming spell.’ In the end, he still realizes friendship matters to him, and fixes his mess. Then Twilight’s Kingdom shows he cares for others, but needed to be brought down a peg. Discord’s been all powerful throughout his entire existence, makes sense you need to strip him of some of that control make him see what’s truly important. He even says as much. Later episodes reinforce it.
I mean, Luna betrayed Celestia, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t feel regret or doesn’t care about her.
Heck, Scorpan himself tattled on Tirek partially because of his friendship with Starswirl. And she’s right, because Discord outright says he’s doing it for Flutters.
That lasted all of five minutes. Which makes this the second time he’s betrayed Fluttershy’s trust.
Because he lacked support from other ponies, which would’ve grounded him enough to prevent this.
The main difference being that Scorpan grew to care about other ponies, while most ponies continued being hostile to Discord, so there wasn’t as much connection there, which is why Tirek’s reasoning worked in the first place. Plus, saying “yeah, gag the guy, or he might turn you evil again” could be insulting to Discord, and make him feel like Celestia is treating him like an idiot.
Kind of sounds like she should have actually invested some time and effort into reforming Discord before sending him on this mission, considering this was her project in the first place.
Oh, absolutely. She trusted the Mane 6 to guide him, but she definitely could’ve intervened a bit more. I suppose not having that much time comes with running the country. And Tirek escaping was not exactly a pre-planned thing.
You have valid criticisms, but I still remain firm in my standpoint on Celestia.

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9267

IronYoshi
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Best Worst Artist
Celestia gets too much hate. And for the most ridiculous reasons.
But if you say those things about Luna then you’ve just signed your will…
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9266

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9265

DerpyFast
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@Background Pony #2E4C
You can compare and contrast. Twilight and Misty are both unicorns that want the approval of the alicorn they complete tasks for. They both have a fear of failure and disapointing others.
But Twilight and Celestia’s relationship is pretty barebones, and doesn’t develop over the span of nine seasons. Twilight never has to confront the consequences of failure. Not even the Tirek situation is enough to get Twilight to at least question her opinion of Celestia. If you really want to be cynical, you could say that G4 starts and ends with Celestia telling Twilight “No, you have to do this instead”.
Meanwhile, you have Misty and Opaline. The villain-henchpony relationship turns out to be a facade that masks an abusive relationship. We learn exactly where Misty’s fears come from, and she eventually confronts them. She becomes disillusioned with Opaline, and chooses to make a change in her life.
It’s like a dark parallel that goes into more detail.
@Tiger beetle
I’m going to address these in the opposite order.
She doesn’t blindly trust Discord.
Yes she does.
She advocated for releasing a potential ally, so now she gives this ally an important task. If he continues serving Equestria, the safety of ponies is still gonna be in his hands. If she prevents Discord from doing anything of value…then what was the point of reforming him?
Yeah, maybe she should let him prove himself with smaller tasks first. The fact that she puts her little ego project over the safety of her subjects is not a good look for her.
Celestia recognizes she can’t overpower every threat, (especially with the implications of Daybreaker, that she’s holding back a lot), so the all powerful spirit of chaos would be an invaluable tool.
The decision to release him created more problems than it solved, and each of those problems reflects poorly on her decision-making.
Now, you can criticize her approach of ‘crises equals an opportunity for a test of character’. If you disagree with such a way of conducting things, that is also perfectly valid.
Oh, I do.
But that is also how she trained Twilight, and I wouldn’t expect a different approach from her.
She trusts Discord (a character who has demonstrated zero redeeming qualities by that point) as much as she trusts her own faithful student. This makes her look like a really bad judge of character, and like she has a surface-level understanding of the resources at her disposal.
Bottom line is, Discord WAS doing exactly what she asked of him, he captured Tirek within like 30 seconds.
This is the closest Discord ever comes to completing a basic task successfully.
Celestia had no prior knowledge of Tirek being some sort of master manipulator, so of course she believes Discord’s got this. She didn’t know Tirek would try to sway him with words - the last person he tried to convince to proceed with his plans was Scorpan, his brother, and that utterly failed.
Discord is unpredictable, so it wouldn’t even take a master manipulator.
And Discord has a friend in Fluttershy who’d also suffer at Tirek’s hands if he got his way, which provides extra motivation.
So she naively and incorrectly assumed that Discord cared about anyone other than himself. I’ll point out that Discord broke his promise to Fluttershy at the first opportunity in KCaFO. Again, this points to her being a bad judge of character.
Heck, Scorpan himself tattled on Tirek partially because of his friendship with Starswirl. And she’s right, because Discord outright says he’s doing it for Flutters.
That lasted all of five minutes. Which makes this the second time he’s betrayed Fluttershy’s trust.
The main difference being that Scorpan grew to care about other ponies, while most ponies continued being hostile to Discord, so there wasn’t as much connection there, which is why Tirek’s reasoning worked in the first place. Plus, saying “yeah, gag the guy, or he might turn you evil again” could be insulting to Discord, and make him feel like Celestia is treating him like an idiot.
Kind of sounds like she should have actually invested some time and effort into reforming Discord before sending him on this mission, considering this was her project in the first place.
If this is what we do see, then we can infer what she’s like as a ruler off-screen:
  • She’s too trusting, and a poor judge of character
  • She makes reckless gambles and lacks foresight
  • She more of an “idea guy”, who dumps projects onto others
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9264

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9263

Tiger beetle
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@DerpyFast
I disagree. You are inevitably gonna make your assumptions about characters based on how they are presented within the work. And if it’s not too much a stretch, if it doesn’t outright contradict the canon, then I think that’s valid. Celestia’s been shown to be forgiving, wise, kind, playful, able to see potential in others, and more than willing to give second chances. She has regrets, but she doesn’t give up because of them. She still sees herself as a good teacher, and ruler despite them.
Equestria is not a one-to-one of real life. Our rulers don’t have a ‘your destiny is to move the celestial body that illuminates the whole planet’ tattooed on their bums, and they don’t need to look at the totality of over a thousand years of ruling a magical land with magical threats, as to whether they should resign or not, whether they should get someone else to do this. Twilight was that someone else to do this, but that needed time to unfold. I am sure Celestia has made even more mistakes over her long reign, and no, her successes don’t erase her mistakes. But that goes both ways. And what I see, is a land where every citizen can pursue their dreams, resources are plentiful, and not a decrepit shadow of its former self like Griffinstone, or a starving society under a tyrant like the changelings under Chrysalis. Yes, the individual mayors of those towns and cities are there to make decisions on the behalf of those places - but all of that starts with Celestia governing the whole thing from Canterlot. Every meeting with dozens of delegates, every public appearance, every piece of paperwork she signs has a rippling effect throughout the land.
She doesn’t blindly trust Discord. She advocated for releasing a potential ally, so now she gives this ally an important task. If he continues serving Equestria, the safety of ponies is still gonna be in his hands. If she prevents Discord from doing anything of value…then what was the point of reforming him? Celestia recognizes she can’t overpower every threat, (especially with the implications of Daybreaker, that she’s holding back a lot), so the all powerful spirit of chaos would be an invaluable tool. Now, you can criticize her approach of ‘crises equals an opportunity for a test of character’. If you disagree with such a way of conducting things, that is also perfectly valid. But that is also how she trained Twilight, and I wouldn’t expect a different approach from her. Bottom line is, Discord WAS doing exactly what she asked of him, he captured Tirek within like 30 seconds. Celestia had no prior knowledge of Tirek being some sort of master manipulator, so of course she believes Discord’s got this. She didn’t know Tirek would try to sway him with words - the last person he tried to convince to proceed with his plans was Scorpan, his brother, and that utterly failed. And Discord has a friend in Fluttershy who’d also suffer at Tirek’s hands if he got his way, which provides extra motivation. Heck, Scorpan himself tattled on Tirek partially because of his friendship with Starswirl. And she’s right, because Discord outright says he’s doing it for Flutters. The main difference being that Scorpan grew to care about other ponies, while most ponies continued being hostile to Discord, so there wasn’t as much connection there, which is why Tirek’s reasoning worked in the first place. Plus, saying “yeah, gag the guy, or he might turn you evil again” could be insulting to Discord, and make him feel like Celestia is treating him like an idiot.

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9262

Background Pony #2E4C
@DerpyFast
Not wanting to defend Celestia in terms of governance, but Misty and Twilight’s situations are not comparable, In Misty’s case, Opaline was just an evil alicorn who treated her like a servant and abused her.

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9261

DerpyFast
Pixel Perfection - Hot Pockets Spotted
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@Tiger beetle
This kind of gets into why people don’t like Celestia. She’s only a good character if you appeal to assumptions about things that happened off-screen, while downplaying how she’s actually characterized.
It didn’t just backfire, it very nearly destroyed all of Equestria. And Tirek would have just kept going. That’s not just “a bad call”. That’s the sort of blunder that causes a person to have an existential crisis, if not resign outright. If these are the sorts of decisions she makes; if Discord is the sort of person she blindly trusts with the fate of her subjects, then I genuinely do not believe that Equestria is successful because of her leadership.
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9260

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9259

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9258

Tiger beetle
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@DerpyFast
Twilight sees Celestia as a second mother figure, someone she’s mortified to disappoint even by season 8. Not surprised a bad call doesn’t change that. Celestia’s also why Equestria is the prosperous, thriving kingdom it is. A living legend, over a thousand years old, who helped guide pony kind into what it is today. Even after becoming a princess herself, Twilight never really gets rid of this ‘larger than life’ view of Celestia.
I get why Tia chose to send out Discord. Aside from the pragmatic reason of his innate ‘magic drain sense’, she was the one who advocated for his release, and giving him such an important task is a good way reinforce her trust in him. You probably could send someone to watch over him, but Discord might read that as distrust. And to be fair, until Tirek got into his head, Discord was legitimately more than happy to do this, proud even.
It backfired, sure, but I totally understand her thought process.

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9257

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9256

DerpyFast
Pixel Perfection - Hot Pockets Spotted
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My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
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@Toastypk
That segues into another point I wanted to make. Her decision to send Discord to deal with Tirek backfired so spectacularly that Equestria needed a Deus Ex Machina to bail them out. And I don’t think Celestia is ever called out on this, and it doesn’t affect Twilight’s opinion of her at all.
Meanwhile in G5, Misty is a character that gradually becomes disillusioned with her alicorn mentor.
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9255

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9254

DerpyFast
Pixel Perfection - Hot Pockets Spotted
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Non-Fungible Trixie -
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
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Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.

Actually, I kind of want to dig in a bit more.
I think the backstory of Celestia and Luna is fine. But I think the fact that the fandom sided with Luna shows that the story needed a bit more nuance; that there was another side to it. Like Luna, Zipp is a princess that grew resentful of her sister, and rebelled in a sense. But here, we really get to understand Zipp’s frustration. She’s smarter and more driven, and she’s forced to live this lie. Pipp is a bit sheltered and naive, but Pipp gets to be the favorite because she helps keep the lie going. So Zipp was justified in rebelling, and it ended up making Equestria a better place.
Another thing is how Celestia’s School for Gifted Unicorns barely comes up at all, but Mane Melody and its employees are integral to Pipp’s character.
Pipp is an ordinary pegasus without any special powers, but I think the fact that she was able to buy some time against Opaline in both of their encounters makes her marginally more useful in a crisis than Celestia.
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9253

WaynePonePone
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@Toastypk
Celestia and Pipp are actually quite alike, so I don’t really understand saying Celestia is a worse princess than Pipp. I guess the Celestia hate boner is just so strong they can’t see the similarities.
@northern haste
How do you turn one of the most well made and heartfelt ponies IRL video into a propaganda?
Funnily enough though Fluttershy is the character I have to defend the least because most arguments against her kind of work and well, simply not many have a problem with her. She is Fluttershy after all. Though I’ll never understand people who find her too shy, think she has to learn the “same lesson” all the time, or just don’t like shy people in general, like that Karen pony from Fame and Misfortune. Oh I’m sorry. Not everyone lives life without fear, anxiety, and traumatic experience that put them off socializing. Glad your social life is so easy, extroverts. I hope you have fun speaking on stage in front of thousand of people who are judging your every action and movement and think you’re not as good as you think you are.
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9252

Mr.Myoozik
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@Toastypk
Cool, never gonna watch it
@Background Pony #B165
Reminds me of during the early years of the fandom’s popularity, if you dare say that Fluttershy is a bad character, you’ll get shish-kebabbed and roasted with herbs and spices. The Celestia and Luna thing I get since Luna was always the one who got more episodes and development for her while Celestia didn’t get a main episode that focused on her until the penultimate season. But I don’t consider Celestia a bad character.
@northern haste
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Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9251

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9250

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9249

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9248

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9247

Cosmas-the-Explorer
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Explorer in Training
In all seriousness I’m not interested to really debate Celestia’s character. It was more a vent and I was kinda frustrated of other stuff.
People can come to their own conclusions.
I wish you guys luck on debating this Celestia Pipp thing.
@DerpyFast
Interesting I never thought of that. Or maybe I did a while ago.
But I guess that would make Zipp Luna in this comparison.

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9246

DerpyFast
Pixel Perfection - Hot Pockets Spotted
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Non-Fungible Trixie -
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.

@Toastypk
Pipp and Celestia are both characters that:
  • are princesses
  • are extroverted
  • are loved by their subjects
  • are juxtaposed by a more mysterious, introverted, and less popular sibling, with whom they had a falling out
  • are operators of some kind of establishment
  • invite the question of how useful they are in a crisis
Sometimes I feel like I’m the only person in this fandom who knows what “thematic” means.

Pony Discussion » Pony Venting Thread » Post 9245

Toastypk
Pixel Perfection - I still call her Lightning Bolt
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Royal Advisor
@WaynePonePone
But I feel like some discussions about Celestia paint her as a lame princess compared to Luna or Pipp.
Wait, comparing Celestia to Pipp?
They’re so stupidly different! That doesn’t make any sense!
Like, she isn’t in charge of a nation, she’s in charge of likes and glam. And looking good. It’s like comparing the head of a kingdom to a Kardashian.

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