New AI Policy

The Smiling Pony

( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡° )

It still take some effort to prompt them to generate something

I “made” over 8Gb of generated images in less than a month before I got bored.

It takes my 3070 less than 1.5 seconds to generate a 512x512 image regardless of prompt complexity. 6 seconds if I want a 2k image. I can generate hundreds upon hundreds in an hour, with dozens being “good enough”. All by typing in less text than what’s in this post (or literally just copy-pasting the tags from an existing image!) and pressing “Generate”, not even providing a sketch or doing any editing or composition.

Do you seriously not see a problem with how that relates to a site like this?

Sure, people can put effort into those prompts, make sure they get exactly what they want from them. And that’s what we want people to do, to make sure they put in the effort to get the best, pick the very best, and even put in the effort to edit things manually, clean things up, do composition, and actually make it their art, using AI.

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S410

🐎

@The Smiling Pony

I don’t have an issue with the 2 image per day limit. I’m talking about the shadowban from Trending.

So, you generated 8Gb of images. What if you sieve through them all and pick only one, only the best one? While you didn’t make that image yourself, you still had to do some work to get it, right? So, why should it be excluded from Trending?

Particularly considering the new daily limit, which should prevent the overwhelming flood like before.

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Clear Vision

Petrolhead Artist

It still take some effort to prompt them to generate something, even if that effort is even less than posing pre-made 3d models.

The best way I could describe things is to imagine the AI art scenario but with a human in place of the computer: I’ve personally had times where there was a lot of back-and-forth conversation with a client that was needed in order for me to make something that was exactly what they wanted. I’ve also had clients write up very detailed descriptions (sometimes with other pictures) on what they wanted before I even began their commission. If the client puts in a lot of effort into their description, would it mean that the rights and credit for the resulting image goes to them instead of me?

Prompting (at least IMO) shouldn’t be considered as effort with regards to artistic merit or credibility. Even if you put in considerable effort into writing prompts, all you are doing essentially is commissioning a computer to make something for you. Anyone can come up with ideas and describe them, pay someone to create their ideas for them (or maybe find someone willing to do it for free), but only the person who actually made the idea a reality should be credited.

As far as making 3D art with pre-made models, the model belongs to whoever made it, but the art piece itself belongs to the person who made that. I’ve seen 3D artists credit the model maker in their work when used, which is definitely the way to do it.

Also, training models takes some skill and know-how as well (similar to creating or modifying 3d models), so even if a generated image wasn’t edited at all, but it was generated using a custom fine-tuned model, I’d argue there’s quite a bit of human effort put into it.

How many people are making AI images with their own model though? Even if you can name people, it’s guaranteed to be a minority rather than a majority. Almost everywhere you look, there are more people who consume or use something than people who directly make it. Derpibooru and artwork in general is no different.

Even if there were to be exceptions for people who have made their own model, either from scratch or using an existing model as a base and doing transformative work with it, I see no way in which Derpi staff could police this effectively when the line between AI generated and assisted is still being debated a little.

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LightningBolt

Senior Moderator

Undead inside

@Background Pony #B3BE
That is assuming the stuff they want to see if commonly enjoyed and popular, and I don’t really see the sense in that personally. Of course, I just don’t like normie stuff and I find it hard to imagine people ONLY looking at that once a day and nothing more.

@AppleDash
I feel this way too.

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S410

🐎

This isn’t about credit.

If someone commissions an art from an artist and uploads it here, that image will appear in Trending.

If someone prompts an art from a machine learning image generator and uploads it here, that image will not appear in Trending.

Even though Machine learning systems don’t generate images on their own, just like some artist don’t draw ponies unless they’re commissioned to do so.

So, in both cases, the image doesn’t exist in vacuum. In both cases someone commissioned/prompted that image (so they’re directly responsible for its existence), found the result pleasing and decided to share it.

I’m not claiming that the prompter is the author. I’m merely pointing out that humans aren’t completely out of the loop. The only difference is that in this case the human acts as a curator instead of the creator.

It’s not like someone setup a GPT model to generate prompts automatically, a diffusion model to generate images, a CLIP model to derive tags, and a script to upload the results.

Right now there’s human intent behind pretty much every machine learning generated upload. And I believe that if the uploader believes the image has some value, other humans should be allowed to view it as well, if they want to.

The current shadow ban attempts to prevent people from seeing MLG content, even if they want to see it. If it’s hidden by default, and I un-hid it, let me fucking see it, thank you very much.

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LightningBolt

Senior Moderator

Undead inside

@S410
Don’t look at trending then. It’s one subsection of the site that only reflects the tastes of faceless masses, it isn’t anything more. It makes sense for it to focus on human made stuff as AI made stuff right now is highly rudimentary and samey with anything ‘good’ looking from it as it doesn’t have the capability to create anything more exciting without human intervention.

This isn’t a ‘shadowban’, it’s exactly ONE section of the site,. that people are capable of hiding if they so choose.

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Ciaran

Senior Moderator

友情は魔法だ

[…] I believe that if the uploader believes the image has some value, other humans should be allowed to view it as well, if they want to.

Then are you also opposed to ai generated being filtered by the default filter? Because the image not showing under the Trending feature has absolutely nothing to do with people not being allowed to see the image.

This site simply is not promoting it.

Before you reply, please note that an image being filtered by default is also not a ‘silent ban’ - we prominently display that information, and every user on the site is encouraged to make their own custom filter.

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S410

🐎

@LightningBolt
@Ciaran

I think MLG content being hidden by the default filters should be enough.

Force-adding an attribute to the Trending search query make the UX actively hostile towards people people who want to see MLG content website-wide (i.e. they removed it out of their filters), as it, essentially, forces anyone to manually remove that query every time the visit the Trending page, if they want it to behave as one would expect.

Applejack is a background pony no one cares about. Let’s add -aj to the query too! Anyone who wants to see her can just remove that part of the query or just not use that part of the website! No big deal! /s

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TexasUberAlles

Deletion reason: Rule #6 Off topic, pelase use the other thread to discuss this.

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🂾𝕃𝕚𝕟𝕔𝕠𝕝𝕟𝔹𝕣𝕖𝕨𝕤𝕥𝕖𝕣𝔽𝕒𝕟🂽

Goodbye guys ;)

@S410
Dude I understand your point but don’t get too cocky please 🥺 thanks 😊

@TexasUberAlles
A few are still around. Been checking their forums recently, but not a lot of action on that end.

Derpibooru just has longer history and fan base that’s not going to be matched so quickly, even three years later. (I missed that entire drama period so I probably shouldn’t be talking, but anywho.)

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LightningBolt

Senior Moderator

Undead inside

@S410
Are you aware there is many ways to look at popular images beyond that single page? All the other ways involve full user direction and specifications. Trending is not the one and only way. The goal of the site is to showcase artists. Full stop.

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🂾𝕃𝕚𝕟𝕔𝕠𝕝𝕟𝔹𝕣𝕖𝕨𝕤𝕥𝕖𝕣𝔽𝕒𝕟🂽

Goodbye guys ;)

@LightningBolt
Basically second this.

_{^{also didn’t know you became a senior moderator too, congratulations 🥰 only seen Mildgyth and Fleetfoot with those statuses before 😇}}

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Ciaran

Senior Moderator

友情は魔法だ

Force-adding an attribute to the Trending search query make the UX actively hostile towards people people who want to see MLG content website-wide (i.e. they removed it out of their filters), as it, essentially, forces anyone to manually remove that query every time the visit the Trending page, if they want it to behave as one would expect.

The purpose of Trending on this site is to promote recent HUMAN-made art that is scoring better than others. That is all. The site’s decision to exclude ai generated from that is a reflection of our stated intention to continue to focus on human made art.

If you do not want to see a showcase of human made art, you can opt out by disabling the “Show sidebar and watched images” option in your Displays options under your account’s Settings.

Applejack is a background pony no one cares about. Let’s add -aj to the query too! Anyone who wants to see her can just remove that part of the query or just not use that part of the website! No big deal! /s

Please dial back the amount of hyperbolic arguments you are making. No one is seriously proposing anything like this, and it is not analogous to us deciding to not promote ai generated.

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S410

🐎

Just because there multiple ways to view images, doesn’t mean that one of them has to be hostile towards a part of the userbase.

If you do not want to see a showcase of human made art, you can opt out by disabling the “Show sidebar and watched images” option in your Displays options under your account’s Settings.

I want to see a showcase of Trending Images. Like, all the images. That’s what the page is called.

Though, you could rename it to “Tending Art” and filter out other non-art images, such as screenshots of comments, 4chan, articles, games, barely pony related content, etc. Basically most things that don’t have an artist:* tag or the art is not the main focus of the image.

That way the name of the page would actually be representative of what it does and it would clear up even more space for actual artists.

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Clear Vision

Petrolhead Artist

If someone commissions an art from an artist and uploads it here, that image will appear in Trending.

Because it was made by a human, for another human, and uploaded to a site that wants to prioritise human-made art.

If someone prompts an art from a machine learning image generator and uploads it here, that image will not appear in Trending.

Because it was made by a computer, for a human, and uploaded to a site that wants to prioritise human-made art.

I’m not claiming that the prompter is the author. I’m merely pointing out that humans aren’t completely out of the loop. The only difference is that in this case the human acts as a curator instead of the creator.

As far as the actual creation process of the image itself which is what matters IMO, humans are out of the loop unless you then proceed to do transformative work to the resulting generated image.

The current shadow ban attempts to prevent people from seeing MLG content, even if they want to see it. If it’s hidden by default, and I un-hid it, let me fucking see it, thank you very much.

You can search for it if you specifically want to see AI images, or failing that you can add AI content to your watch list so it will come up under your Watched tab. At least for me, I mostly look at My Watched tab more than the trending tab, as it shows me more of the content that I want to see anyway. I see no reason to not leave the Trending tab for humans who put in a whole lot more work than AI prompters do, as a reward of making an image that was liked by many people in a short amount of time and have potential for things to snowball further. It’s why I was able to get 1K upvotes on an image as an artist hardly anyone knew.

Trending is usually filled with popular artists people are already familiar with anyway, and right now I don’t think we should be making it harder for artists to potentially get discovered by allowing half-assed AI art that looks good at thumbnail size to compete on the same level as human art (at least by default)

Posted 11 months ago Report

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-Craft-

@LightningBolt
ehhh, just to be clear it absolutely is capable, no one acting in good faith would say all these images look samey (the portrait bias is more my fault then the ai’s), it is just that 2-3 of those images are of a style that will get a lot more traction and people are social animals who would rather have a dozen of those fluttershy’s that get tons of attention then have a dozen different pictures that get a third as much.

People like Zealousmagician seem to derive quite a lot of joy from wringing new styles out of the machine but by and large, its not the sort of thing that gets widespread pull on derpi. challenging pony art with something to say is a one in a million proposition these days even with a human behind the wheel, so I don’t think we should act like the state of things is some flaw that might be gone in 8 months, at the end of the day its people who choose to upload it and no matter how hard your gpu tries it can’t make you upload something that tickles your noodle. yet.

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Ciaran

Senior Moderator

友情は魔法だ

Just because there multiple ways to view images, doesn’t mean that one of them has to be hostile towards a part of the userbase.

I disagree. I do not see it as hostile to anyone. The feature is specifically intended to promote art by fan artists. And ai generated, by definition, is not art. So, now that there is a chance that it might start encroaching into the Trending Image results it has been specifically excluded to make sure that art by fan artists remains the focus of that feature.

I feel that you have done a really good job of expressing your opinion on this. Can we simply agree that you are not going to be ok with the site excluding ai generated images from Trending Images, and that this site is almost certainly going to continue to use Trending Images to feature art by human artists?

If that is possible, then I would like to suggest that you request a new feature to optionally control whether ai generated images appear in the Trending Images results. Something on the Display settings for the Profile might be a good place for that to reside.

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LightningBolt

Senior Moderator

Undead inside

@-Craft-
Samey to my opinion, of which I was referring to mainly explicit content, mind. I am aware my own personal opinions on images is wildly unique and not shared by many others.

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Background Pony #5638

Machine learning generated images don’t appear out of thin air, though.

True, but I mean, how difficult would it be make them more or less “appear out of thin air”? Surely someone with a little programming know-how could write a program to, say, randomly open stories on Fimfiction, copy a some preset or random assortment of words and characters, populate them into an image generating AI, and churn out a few hundred random pony related images. Set it to save to an external drive and repeat the process until there’s no space left, and you’d eventually have hundreds of thousands of pony or pony related pictures that were produced with so little human involvement they might as well have just popped into existence. And odds are reasonably good that at least some of those would be on par with even the “best” AI images that did have direct human involvement.

Also, if someone out there decides to actually do this, I humbly request you name the program Infinite Monkey. Because honestly, what else would you call it?

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Background Pony #6312

Are “prompter:” tags not automatically categorized/namespaced? Several of them are green.

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Ciaran

Senior Moderator

友情は魔法だ

@Background Pony #6312
Nope. We currently have to do all of that by hand. That’ll change, but may take some more time.

I did spend a couple hours on the generator tags a few days ago, I might spend some time on prompter tags too, but just in case there any last second changes or code updates I really want to wait with those until the proposal is final and live.

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Background Pony #9046

Deletion reason: Rule #6 - has nothing to do with this proposal/whining about not being able to kinkshame others

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Background Pony #03D3

I agree with some of the policy changes such as an upload limit. Although this site is a site hosting all things pony-related, having an upload limit not just for AI content, but in general to prevent spam is a good thing. I would argue it should more than 2 images per day, make it a dozen. Regardless whether it is AI generated or not. It would also incentivize people to work harder on the AI content they create and edit it to include a good background or setting and multiple characters, that AI today are unable to handle.

I think it is a bad thing to retroactively delete AI images outside of DNP requests and it reminds me of the very disgusting practices other platforms such as YouTube do whenever they have a policy change. A year ago AI art was a novelty. I remember me generating my first few crappy pony images using DALL-E mini and being completely amazed by it. They should remain as a legacy for AI art.

AI art should not be hidden by default and should be allowed to be featured. Let’s be honest, we as humans have a vastly different standard towards AI content then we do for content made by humans, just like there is a different standard between CGI and traditional animation. If an AI work is really outstanding, why shouldn’t it be featured?

I don’t have an issue with the change of tags. But then there is this policy

Do not use AI to emulate an artist’s personal style without clear approval from the artist. This does not apply to highly commercial or culturally significant styles (e.g. from renown dead painters, or popular TV shows). Unintentional “style copying” due to model biases may be deleted after review.

This in my opinion is a disastrous rule that will cause a lot of issues going down the line. There are thousands of artists, many of whom have different styles and content, but also similar ones. It is absolutely ridiculous to demand from AI that it not generate a particular style of art as no-one holds a copyright to that art-style.

Rule #3 changes is off-set by the changes made to the upload limit and is in my opinion unnecessary, that again, brings AI art under fire. Derpi is for all things pony-related, is it not? And there is an up-vote system to give praise and attention to good art, while hiding the bad art.

Overall, AI art is just as valid as digital art drawn by a human, which is just as valid as art physically drawn by hand. Of course to many, with me being being no exception, artists that can draw paintings by hand seem much more talented than digital artists and AI artists. However, that changes nothing to the validity of the art they publish.

Posted 11 months ago Report

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-Craft-

@LightningBolt
Ah, I was avoiding nsfw because I assumed linking to it here would be bad but in that regard I do agree things are more inflexible at the moment as far as nsfw goes.

———

Someone earlier mentioned that generator:stable diffusion did not make sense as ‘stable diffusion’ is the underlying technology rather than a generator. Perhaps the stable diffusion tag could be repurposed to be used as a category for images based in whole or in part on diffusion technology. This would allow people who only want to see images avoid things like voice synthesizers while both SD and synthesizers could still be amalgamated under the general ‘ai content’ tag.

Just a thought.

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saby

Moderator

extra fun at parties

@Background Pony #03D3

Do not use AI to emulate an artist’s personal style without clear approval from the artist. This does not apply to highly commercial or culturally significant styles (e.g. from renown dead painters, or popular TV shows). Unintentional “style copying” due to model biases may be deleted after review.

This in my opinion is a disastrous rule that will cause a lot of issues going down the line. There are thousands of artists, many of whom have different styles and content, but also similar ones. It is absolutely ridiculous to demand from AI that it not generate a particular style of art as no-one holds a copyright to that art-style.

I don’t want to say too much, out of abundance of caution (refer to the “beans up noses” principle), and also because I have no personal info on why the current wording is as it is, but as far as I know this part of the rules is supposed to be more of a caveat, that if staff catches you doing some specific types of shenanigans, “oops, AI must have done it on accident, what a coinky-dink” is not going to work as a defence.

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