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Guess an ex-tyrant like Starlight Glimmer can easily imagine the potential tyranny in others.
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+-SH safe2277818 +-SH edit181335 +-SH edited screencap95888 +-SH screencap302984 +-SH daybreaker4472 +-SH princess celestia117432 +-SH alicorn338351 +-SH pony1711464 +-SH a royal problem2429 +-SH g42135414 +-SH my little pony: friendship is magic268274 +-SH adventure in the comments1354 +-SH crying58340 +-SH eyes closed148912 +-SH facehoof2101 +-SH fire16849 +-SH fridge horror191 +-SH glare9202 +-SH magic102514 +-SH night41360 +-SH nightmare1705 +-SH sadlestia104 +-SH text97524 +-SH theory505
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😥
Maybe some people just like to look for deeper meanings where they might not exist. It’s a common human tendency known as apophenia, of which pareidolia (seeing faces or other images in random shapes) is a subset.
Besides, sometimes it’s fun to take ponies too seriously.
When I say significance here, I’m talking about the producers’ capacity to inform the audience of what the characters are thinking and what their intentions are. What the story they’re telling is. We’re talking about this here because some people think that Daybreaker is a real thing in-universe and other think that she isn’t. Others, like me, say that even if she is real, it makes no difference because it’s just a pointless quirk on Celestia that doesn’t really influence character development or the overarching story (if there is one).
Comparing it to a better written scene, no one can say that Rick didn’t understand what happened when Morty walked out of the bathroom in “Meeseeks and Destroy”. No one can say that Rick doesn’t love his grandson (and hates himself for it) after the third season.
Yes, I know that fans see MLP as better children’s entertainment than the average, but, honestly, the only thing it really does in that regard is that it has a decent main cast of female characters. But it doesn’t really mean much when it neglects to avoid stereotypes in the other gender or even in other characters of the same gender, and that is when characterization is consistent.
But really, I like the cartoon. I just don’t see it as this, avant-garde, revolutionary cartoon people seem to think it is. And yes, when it has a character that is one thousand years old and treats it the way it treats Celestia, it is stupid. When characters have motivations like “my friend left me when we were kids”, it’s not particularly clever. When it does a flashback that shows the big moment when an important antagonist made her move and don’t give it time to even let the character be a menace, it’s just bad writing.
I’m starting to hate to have these conversations because it sounds like I hate the cartoon, like I hate Celestia, that I think that DHX is full of incompetent people. And none of those are true; but what deeper things?
At which point we irrevocably disagree. If you see “significance” in one show but not another, if you think any subtle details in MLP are just the fans seeing things that aren’t there, there’s nothing I can say to that. Except that, if it really were just another “ultimately stupid children’s cartoon” we wouldn’t be here talking about it. The show was intended from the beginning to have deeper things than your average little girl’s cartoon, and it’s paid off.
Edited
Good. Be happy with your headcanon. That is what headcanons are for.
No, that is not a problem. Especially when we’re talking about headcanon.
What difference does that make? Celestia is still the brain-dead waste of animation she’s been the last four or five seasons, that would make no difference in the cartoon if she died next season opener.
Let’s suppose that Celestia is some kind of ultra powerful “Supermare”. Whatever happened to the “regal ruler of Equestria”, her best moment in the near past is still acting like a retarded teenager that can’t make an important decision without freaking out because the writers decided that comparing her to Twilight would be funny (of course, because Starlight Glimmer is that important…) or that she can be reduced to the just the pawn that happens to raise the sun because they’re too lazy to come up with something unique about her. Not even saying that she’s a good ruler or anything, or a half-decent teacher. It’s always “implied” or “up to interpretation”. What a waste of a great idea. Just another idiotic “adult” in a children’s cartoon that needs to get out of the way of the “awesome plot”.
And then there is another thing: this is My Little Pony. It’s a cute and fun, but ultimately stupid children’s cartoon. The best it can half do is “child turns to monster because friend left”. This is not Westworld, or Rick and Morty where you can find significance in the way characters act subtlety. Or even try to provoke real thought beyond “this is cute”.
It’s always the fandom that comes up with embellishments or try to see meaning… And then, typing a few characters in a 100 or so text is easy… Actual character arcs, season wide stories without a load of filler to pretend that things happened in between and emotional investment in a character are a bit harder.
I prefer to think about things and find a way for them to make sense, rather than just assuming things are “nonsensical.” I enjoy the show much more that way.
That’s my policy. I’m quite happy with my headcanon, and I’m happy to let other people be happy with their headcanons.
Is that a problem? I don’t see it as one.
No, actually, the most logical thing to do is to consider it nonsensical and wait until the cartoon decides to make up it’s mind about it. It’s not like it makes a difference, anyway. Not even in the scene itself because it has nothing to do with Daybreaker’s existence or any consequences of her being real. Like I said, the whole thing is about SG’s dream. It sounds like I don’t want Daybreaker to be canon, but I actually don’t care otherwise. Here is the thing: the only ones that seem to care about this are the fans. And because of that, a more recent conversation has convinced me that it’s up to whoever cares about this to decide if Daybreaker even exists for for themselves. To me, the only way to make her canon, is to input information into the scene. To me, all this says is that people just want her to be canon, even though it makes no difference, changes nothing about any character involved and the cartoon as a whole couldn’t care less.
But since the “cut content” is a meta reason (like any bad/inconsistent writing) and not an in-universe reason, the only in-universe implication you can go with is that Luna either previously knew about Daybreaker (the interpretation I went with in my short fic), or can sense its nature somehow. For the most part what we see is what we get, and that’s what we have to work with, unless you ignore/retcon part of the show itself.
Luna is in her dream…
Dream Ponies: [singsongy] That smile’s too wide… It’s obviously not real…
Dream Pony: Why don’t you want us to go on our field trip?
Princess Luna: [through teeth gaps] I don’t…!
[teeth clattering]
Princess Luna: I mean, I do!
Dream Ponies: [singsongy] That smile’s too wide… It’s obviously not real…
Princess Luna: Celestia! I’m so glad you’re…!
[magic zaps] They both go to Starlight GLimmer’s dream.
Princess Luna: [speaking normally] I’ve seen a lot, but I haven’t seen this before.
Princess Celestia: It’s Starlight Glimmer’s. She’s afraid this is what will happen if we continue to fight!
Starlight Glimmer: [sobbing] What was I thinking?! I’m never going with my gut again!
Princess Luna: If you don’t fix this soon, it could have a grave consequence on Starlight’s psyche. Luna is worried about SG, not Daybreaker.
Princess Celestia: But my magic isn’t powerful enough! I thought if we worked together…! Celestia pusses out as per standard MLP proceedings.
Princess Luna: I have your magic, remember? It doesn’t work in the dream realm. It has to be you!
Princess Celestia: Oh, Luna, I can’t do this! I was wrong! Your job is so incredibly hard! You have to battle nightmares and work in the darkness and do it all alone! It takes such a brave, strong pony to do what you do! It’s a nightmare
Princess Luna: And that pony is you. I walked a day in your shoes. I thought all you had to do was smile and be adored all the time, but I was wrong. There is so much more to it than that.
Daybreaker: [laughing maniacally]
[magic zaps]
Nightmare Moon: [screams] Ugh!
Daybreaker: [laughing maniacally]
[flames roaring]
Starlight Glimmer: Don’t do this to each other!
None of that implies that Luna knew Daybreaker or even was worried about her. She’s not even worried about Celestia fighting what is supposed to be her own version of Nightmare Moon.
Princess Luna: In order to defeat Daybreaker, you need only to trust in your strength as I do.
Luna just magically knows the name because this cartoon is nowhere near as tight as people like to pretend it is and, honestly, implies cut content more than the fact that Celestia has some inner monster.
Luna has seen Daybreaker before.
“There are several large gaps between “interpreting something differently than the author intended” particularly when the author’s intent is unclear, and actually writing your own story, partly because – why should they write their own story when this is simply how they see a story that exists?”
Well, the problem, to be clearer, is not necessarily interpreting. But treating headcanon that comes from that as if it’s canon. If something isn’t clear in the source material, then it’s just something that we don’t know. Suppose I wouldn’t like fanfiction, for example, if the problem was “interpreting” by itself.
“I’m not sure why that particular difference is relevant.”
It is because MLP is simple. Complexity is usually in people’s theories, like this idea that Daybreaker is Celestia’s Nightmare Moon, and not just a figment of Starlight Glimmer’s dream.
“I’ve never claimed otherwise and have stated as such repeatedly, and I also agree with keeping an awareness of the nature of one’s own headcanon as non-canon, so I’m not sure why you’re still trying to make this point given I’ve never voiced opposition to it.”
I wasn’t making a point. I was explaining my position, because it seemed like there was some confusion. Then, I suppose we agree on this one.
“And that is your headcanon, because canon Celestia can and has made major decisions without breaking down – and while it’s possible for something to really affect her, it’s also rare. Even during the S4 finale, when explaining the decision to Twilight that she and the other princesses would be giving up their magic to her, she was calm despite what this meant. Even Twilight is capable of making decisions like that, and she’s far more neurotic and prone to panic than Celestia. “A Royal Problem” was the one instance of Celestia coming close to panicking in a crisis, and the S7 opener showed her worrying but she also wasn’t under any sort of time pressure so she had time to worry. Really, if you take away S7 there’s no basis for the notion that Celestia would “crack like a twig” and the only reason she hasn’t done more is because the show doesn’t let her, and she’s often taken out of commission for narrative purposes.”
I disagree. Celestia messed up bad in that episode. If she’s going to make decisions without breaking down, she rather do it right, at least or the whole thing is moot. I know that she did talk normally to the others, but we didn’t see her coming to that conclusion, like we saw the process during S07E10 and S07E01. Though I believe that showing Celestia coming to the decision on how to deal with the situation on S04E26 would’ve been a huge waste of time in that particular episode and was best left out.
But I agree 100% that the problem is that she never did anything because of narrative reasons. After all, I do think that the intention is that Celestia is a competent leader and all that. Not that it really matters, but it’s just another reason I think that Celestia needs an episode about herself.
“You see the difficulty sometimes in separating headcanon from canon? The distinction isn’t always obvious, and people can disagree on what exactly the canon is in the first place. For the reasons mentioned, I disagree that the concept of “canon Celestia” you described is actually canon.”
Yes. People can and do disagree on what the canon is. And they have their reasons. I think sharing is the point of discussing. Good for you. You probably appreciate the character a lot more than I do right now. I need to see things happening in the cartoon before I can call then canon.
There are several large gaps between “interpreting something differently than the author intended” particularly when the author’s intent is unclear, and actually writing your own story, partly because - why should they write their own story when this is simply how they see a story that exists?
I’m not sure why that particular difference is relevant.
I’ve never claimed otherwise and have stated as such repeatedly, and I also agree with keeping an awareness of the nature of one’s own headcanon as non-canon, so I’m not sure why you’re still trying to make this point given I’ve never voiced opposition to it.
And that is your headcanon, because canon Celestia can and has made major decisions without breaking down - and while it’s possible for something to really affect her, it’s also rare. Even during the S4 finale, when explaining the decision to Twilight that she and the other princesses would be giving up their magic to her, she was calm despite what this meant. Even Twilight is capable of making decisions like that, and she’s far more neurotic and prone to panic than Celestia. “A Royal Problem” was the one instance of Celestia coming close to panicking in a crisis, and the S7 opener showed her worrying but she also wasn’t under any sort of time pressure so she had time to worry. Really, if you take away S7 there’s no basis for the notion that Celestia would “crack like a twig” and the only reason she hasn’t done more is because the show doesn’t let her, and she’s often taken out of commission for narrative purposes.
You see the difficulty sometimes in separating headcanon from canon? The distinction isn’t always obvious, and people can disagree on what exactly the canon is in the first place. For the reasons mentioned, I disagree that the concept of “canon Celestia” you described is actually canon.
Edited
I’m not getting egged. Seriously, I’m not. I’m talking about it.
@Dusk Raven
“What I’m getting at is that the “reader” doesn’t necessarily have a reason to care what the writer intends.”
I disagree. Because, to me, without that, I think you might as well be writing your own story. Just let me make something clear here: I’m all for people talking about their headcanons and all the theories that the story spins in their head. I do that all the time. But I also think that it’s important to keep it well contained in a separate box from the canon. You can say that my way is a lot more limited, because it is, but I think it’s the right way to understand a story someone is telling you. It’s THEIR story.
“An example is Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451 – it was originally a critique of television, but readers soon interpreted it as a warning against excessive censorship. At that point, the writer’s intention doesn’t have much of an influence – what really matters is how a reader actually perceives it, and the most you can do as a writer is write it well enough that the reader perceives what you want him to perceive.”
We’re talking about something much simpler here, and there are no real-life attitudes that one can take because they believe or not that Daybreaker is actually a part of Celestia.
“That also doesn’t mean people can’t talk about their headcanons, because some people like discussing that thing, regardless of whether or not it’s “personal.” I mean, the most successful fic I’ve ever posted on Fimfiction.net – reaching the Featured box – was on this very episode, essentially taking my headcanon and writing it out as an in-character discussion between Celestia and Luna. Not to toot my own horn, but people seemed to like it, so… it’s not a bad thing to speak your mind.”
Of course not! If I said that in another post you can be sure it wasn’t my intention. But that is what your story is: fanfiction. Maybe it’s headcanon that fits canon so well that it just might be. (Like when people started writing fics about Luna and her ability to enter dreams before season 3) But just because it makes sense, and it explains a hole in the canon, it’s not canon. Call it pedantic if you will, but those don’t mix in my head.
For example: it makes sense to me that Celestia can be calm, collected and keep under control in a tense situation, capable of making an actual hard and important decision, commanding an army, or even that she is a very powerful individual (both politically and magically) and at the same time freak out because she needs to send Twilight away and could potentially mess up Twilight’s life. The problem is that the cartoon only tells me the last part of all that and because of that, I don’t feel “comfortable” going in a conversation about the character and saying that Celestia certainly kicked some major ass and made Equestria the quasi-utopia that it is. As of now, the canon Celestia would crack like a twig the moment she needs to actually do anything.
@Amethyst_Crystal
I felt it was heavily insinuated she was upset about Daybreaker, and that she was being indirect about it.
Whether Daybreaker really is as terrible as her her own ’dark side’ or not, that is less easy to determine.
To me, Celestia was upset at her incapacity to fix the problem (Which was the point of the whole thing: their lack of appreciation of each other’s jobs) and Luna was worried about Starlight Glimmer and not Daybreaker. I can definitively see why people think the way you do, but I feel like there should’ve been a line of dialogue where Luna explains that Celestia is letting her fears make the situation worse, if that was the intention.
!!!
your current filter.
your current filter.@Daneasaur
@thps48
That’s pretty much always been my headcanon,
Celestia is intentionally holding back the devasting power she is capable of.
@moonlightaveger
I felt it was heavily insinuated she was upset about Daybreaker, and that she was being indirect about it.
Whether Daybreaker really is as terrible as her her own ‘dark side’ or not, that is less easy to determine.
@Dusk Raven
I love that this thread has turned into a discussion on writing stories (no sarcasm)!
Edited
What I’m getting at is that the “reader” doesn’t necessarily have a reason to care what the writer intends. An example is Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451 - it was originally a critique of television, but readers soon interpreted it as a warning against excessive censorship. At that point, the writer’s intention doesn’t have much of an influence - what really matters is how a reader actually perceives it, and the most you can do as a writer is write it well enough that the reader perceives what you want him to perceive.
That also doesn’t mean people can’t talk about their headcanons, because some people like discussing that thing, regardless of whether or not it’s “personal.” I mean, the most successful fic I’ve ever posted on Fimfiction.net - reaching the Featured box - was on this very episode, essentially taking my headcanon and writing it out as an in-character discussion between Celestia and Luna. Not to toot my own horn, but people seemed to like it, so… it’s not a bad thing to speak your mind.
Edited because: Quote tags work weird; also example
So… The reason you’re getting egged on is because we all have numerous, varying theories and headcanons or…? ._.
Depends. Do you know the definition of “headcanon”? Because I know what an implication is. Since we’re talking about this image: you can say that Nightmare Moon is stronger than Celestia because of what the cartoon has shown us, but you can’t say that Daybreaker is Celestia’s evil form just because Starlight Glimmer is dreaming it.
@Dusk Raven
I’m talking about the importance of the intention, because you said it’s not as important as interpretation. It’s easy to write a story and mess up because of the choice of words. A writer can imagine a story in their head and then write it in a way that creates the wrong impression in another person who is the audience. This is why I say that intention IS important. Because the writer can try something and end up doing another in the eyes of another.
“it’s not actually changing with this sort of speculation, it’s adding on, because sometimes an episode leaves room for elaboration. Besides, I already said that I keep an awareness that my speculation is speculation, even if I’m sympathetic to the concept of “Death of the Writer.””
“For the third paragraph, my point was to show that it is possible for viewer imagination to enhance an experience. A good mystery (and often horror) encourages that, but it’s not limited to mysteries, nor should it be.”
We call that headcanon. Which I don’t think is wrong, but it’s personal and others don’t need to care about it and it certainly doesn’t affect the original story.
@Dusk Raven
I disagree. People aren’t perfect and even the best written stories can have problems that the writer didn’t realize. This way, it’s easy to mess up the moral of a story, for example. Or, in this case, some detail about some character.
I like imagining, speculating too. But I keep them distant from the actual story being told. Because I don’t see the point of reading a story, watching a movie or cartoon, if you’re changing the story to something you like. Then, I think it’s best to write something on your own.
When talking about mysteries, yes. Definitively. The point of a mystery is to withhold information from the audience for the sake of keeping them wondering about the story. Because, yes, it is fun to discover things. Isn’t that the point of consuming material others have produced? Sorry if I’m missing the point, but I’m not seeing the relevance. [/bq]
I have no idea what the first paragraph has to do with what I was saying… because it kind of falls in line with what I was saying.
With the second paragraph - it’s not actually changing with this sort of speculation, it’s adding on, because sometimes an episode leaves room for elaboration. Besides, I already said that I keep an awareness that my speculation is speculation, even if I’m sympathetic to the concept of “Death of the Writer.”
For the third paragraph, my point was to show that it is possible for viewer imagination to enhance an experience. A good mystery (and often horror) encourages that, but it’s not limited to mysteries, nor should it be.
Before we go any further, I think I need to know whether or not you know the definition of “implication”… :T
I think it’s way more than five. Almost the entire fandom seems convinced that Daybreaker is Celestia’s subconscious projecting into SG’s dream.