The way Spike walks away XD

Twilight: my friends have betrayed me

well, now twilight knows what disappointment feels like.
 
not jealousy, but disappointment.
 
jealousy was what she felt at cadance’s wedding.

Princess of Friendship, learning another lesson.
 
Also, good job with making the caption clear over the animation!  
I know there’s some trick to do it easily,  
but I still stick with simplified placement on a black bar underneath.

@Background Pony #F03E  
I’ve actually overlooked that! Twilight has been excluded from plenty of Cutie Map adventures and her usual reaction has always been filled with a tinge of jealousy. You are the first person I’ve seen who pointed this detail out. So good job!

This was a natural development of Season 5. Twilight has been disturbingly jealous over all the really important things the Map has been keeping her (and specifically her) from practically since the end of “Cutie Markless.” It’s only natural that some insignificant thing would finally be the straw that broke the alicorn’s back. And that she’d have to deal with it.
 
And possibly that Discord could see it coming, and made sure she learned her lesson in time. And over something trivial, instead of yet another Map quest she could seriously upset her friends on.
 
Besides, if Discord told her and gave her the choice, it could be even worse then just not learning how to deal with her jealousy before she ruined a Map quest. She’s the pony who put a boulder on top of the Mirror Pool. She could take it back off if she realized she didn’t actually have to choose.

@Keith Mowz  
Well the dialogue was what made the scene really important, so its only natural that when its subbed, people are going to talk about it. If someone else wants to create a version without the subbed dialogue, more power to them.
 
I’m done here for now, but its not something to actually regret. We had a lot of good discussions and found a lot of common ground even when we didn’t agree on everything. Compared to the heated hatestorms we saw more often a couple years ago, I think we’ve matured overall as a fandom.
 
@pwingbrony  
I wholeheartedly agree. :)

@Keith Mowz  
Guess so. <rufflkuptr>

@Keith Mowz  
Agreed.

@CronoM  
Hmmm…
 
I see. You think that the show’s status quo may undergo much greater changes than most people would expect. Or, you believe that it should, anyway. I respect that.
 
I definitely don’t hate Discord or anything because of this. His actions made sense, over all. Regardless of how much he annoyed anyone. I know what it’s like to need a sudden or unexpect catalyst in my life to cause me to change in some way, or start an action. I am pretty dependent myself. As a person with a rigid lifestyle. Discord may be what the group needs to learn some unpleasant, but important lessons. I thought this too. Ever since he indirectly guided Twilight to go into the Everfree in the S4 premiere.
 
 
@Keith Mowz  
Yeah. I think I’m done here. For real. I’m sorry. I just got really absorbed in a post. Again.

@pwingbrony  
I have a feeling our perspectives are not that dissimilar. :)
 
And as for your earlier argument on Discord, its not like I’m trying to give Discord a moral highground. Discord’s a dick. We WANT Discord to be a dick. He wouldn’t be Discord if he wasn’t being a deceitful dick. When he awoke angry, he was our first big villain.
 
…But that doesn’t mean he isn’t wise or helpful. With Trickster characters, you really have to grade on a curve. They’re immortal, they’re nigh-omnipowerful, and they love messing with heroes and villains. I just don’t see the point in villainizing Discord anymore then he’s already made clear to be willing and content to be, by using deceit to give Twilight some potentially permanent and healthy character growth. Twilight was really forced to open up this time, and not just to Sunset or Moondancer, but to her other friends as well. And it wasn’t under dangerous conditions, he just used pure psychology, which alone is a step up from many of Celestia’s methods. Considering how privileged Twilight’s life is, and considering how Discord is the living embodiment of chaos who’s actually chosen to support the heroes in his twisted way, I just can’t visualize what Discord did in this episode as ‘a bad thing’, especially in the long run.

Its a shame that this is the only animation of this scene on here. Because it sucks having to unsub from the only image about it because oh my god just take it to the forums or something.  

@pwingbrony  
Twilight may be a prodigy but she is also hyper-dependent. She’s hero worshiped Celestia since she was a child, and as far from all the clues of how much time she spent in the castle, she spent more time with her then with her parents. Improper nurturing can take on many shapes and forms, and Twilight is a particularly impressionable person that her worship of Celestia borders on cult level. Celestia knows how to give praise and encouragement without actually showing her heart on her chest, and that lack of emotional feedback is likely what made Twilight so close-hearted when the pressure of reaching Celestia’s expectations is all that matters to her. From her and Spike’s brief comment on Celestia in Amending Fences, Celestia didn’t seem to have any role of encouraging Twilight to make friends in Canterlot, and by my guess Celestia just sprung this new plan on her so she could seek out the elements.
 
My point with Sunset is if Twilight was supposed to be the one and only main character, they took a very odd route. Instead of waiting until she honestly had grown some independent thinking and unique wisdom maybe in the 4th or 5th season, she was sprung with princesshood in the end of the third season, had a lot of push and pulls for this role in S4, and with Rainbow Rocks and S5, she is beginning to doubt herself for all the right reasons more and more and more.
 
They elevated her to messiah-esque SSG by the end of Twilight’s Kingdom, yet in S5 she is finally starting to see less and less about herself and her role that she likes. Along with that, they are constantly introducing more and more characters that fit her niche and role in certain aspects while being more interesting and less milquetoast then herself. From the bottom of the barrel like Amethyst Crystal, who’s very creation as the town’s former organizer seemed to be a shot at Twilight, to characters as important as Human Twilight, her alternate who’s introverted but more open-minded and untouched by any obsession with pleasing a goddess-like mentor, to Sunset Shimmer, who is in a league of her own in terms of creating a heroic main character instead of a safety net main character. If DHX is still interested in keeping Twilight as the main character princess, instead of de/evolving her as one of the six but more proactive and fully content in her role, they have an odd way of showing it don’t you think? The limited amount of depth they’ve given Twilight’s character until S5 seems almost intentional, for the very sake of extending the series.
 
To really extend the series, they have got to 1) un-enigma Celestia so she can be more involved, amping up the stakes, and 2) Give Twilight her ‘you must unlearn what you have learned’ stage in her life which S5 seems to be leading up to.
 
The reason I mentioned Sunset Shimmer is that she seems to be a perfect catalyst for both possibilities. The amount of investment they are giving her character despite only being in 3 movies is extraordinary. In the 3rd movie, they even used stars to symbolize Sunset’s role being even bigger then Twilight. I don’t know what they have planned, but M.A. Larson said at a convention that Hasbro has given them a lot more independence with the scripts for Season 5 and Season 6, and its definitely starting to show.

@CronoM  
I can definitely picture that. Celestia herself could probably have been emotionally distraught for how she failed both her sister and her other student. To the point where she wasn’t exactly in the best state of mind to take on another student. But, did anyway. I don’t know, though. As far we know, Celestia only taught Twilight magical concepts and other things that don’t necessarily have to do with character building. Just talent building. I honestly can’t imagine Celestia treating Twilight that improperly in a nurturing sense. Especially since we don’t really know if Twilight didn’t still go back to her parents after becoming a student. She very well could’ve still lived with them until she was old enough to live in the observatory with Spike. As a matter of fact, I can imagine Celestia being more concerned for Twilight. I believe in Celestia’s motivation to try to get Twilight to be more social and less introverted. As it was a real problem that she had, and sending her to Ponyville on that fateful day did work out for the better. Twilight is also a prodigy. A genius. She was probably far more mature for her young age than most others. Making it plausible that she was more capable of taking care of herself at that time, anyway.
 
As for Sunset, what does she really have to do with this aside from the point of Celestia’s mental state? I mean, I love Sunset. But, I wouldn’t say she’s more of a main character than Twilight. She’s certainly become an important character at this point. And, now technically the main character of EQG. But, she simply isn’t the main character of current MLP generation. She is a character that adds more to the universe and the other characters. She’s thoroughly gotten her own identity among them. I mean, what does her being Celestia’s failure turned success prove exactly? I just don’t see the point in bringing her up on this post.
 
And, as for Celestia’s character development. I have a feeling that we may get some soon. Maybe next season. I feel that it will happen because this show may only have 2 years or so left in it. Maybe a little more. Or, she may just stay an enigma. Who knows?

@pwingbrony  
Its not that machiavellian. After Luna and Sunset, Celestia simply lost faith in trying to nurture a successor with love and do it right. Sunset was probably like the daughter Celestia never had and was given another chance at family after nearly a thousand years… and she failed Sunset. Sunset left a villain, and I sincerely doubt all the blame was on Sunset. Luna and Sunset may have made a comeback, but when Sunset left, I think Celestia simply had her heart completley broken. She was still determined to have a successor, but she was so emotionally stilted she only saw the path of Twilight’s being her successor was to control it.
 
To your questions, what was the purpose of Sunset Shimmer? She is presented as more of a main character then Twilight to the suprise of many, and she was both one of Celestia’s biggest failures who has now become one of her biggest successes by out-growing Celestia’s shadow.
 
They made the series so long without developing Celestia personally at all. How? Why? To extend the series. How it came out by the time Sunset and Twilight talk about the pressures they live or lived with in Rainbow Rocks was probably a lot more complicated and deep then what they initially set out to do, but that’s how things turned out.

@CronoM  
I don’t know man. I feel like you’re trying really hard to make out Celestia as a disturbingly well thought out mental case that conspires to be above everything. With no morality or hint of humanity that just sets everything up as a means to control a small group of characters. Not even to gain anything more than what she already has. I mean, it’s certainly a possibility. Hell, it’s pretty damn plausible. Fanfictions have been written about it. Headcanons like this linger in the back of some minds. We are older, and we like to get darker with our imaginations.
 
But, I have to ask, do you really think this is the case? Do you really think any writers would intentionally or unintentional instill such negative ideas in a family cartoon with a younger demographic in mind? Do you really think that a kid would not already know enough to recognize what morality the plot is trying to convey? Or that characters are being silly? Or do you really think that kids would think so deeply that they would get such ideas and distaste for others being strange or different? Or even believe that they are common-place to the point where they follow someone like Twilight’s example to a t? If you are seriously getting these vibes, I don’t know what else to tell ya. If not, then you really don’t need to put so much effort into trying to justify your distaste for characters and how they are portrayed when it seriously isn’t that big of a deal. I can make a big deal out of things myself. I’m pretty obsessive. But, I don’t try to bring negativity for the sake of making some point that just brings about more. You are blowing the flaws of the episode, and the show as a whole, way out of proportion. It’s this line of thinking that causes people to attack what they don’t understand. When you become so accusatory like that.
 
Like, really, not every neurotic mistake is born from someone else’s influence. Or an inherently weak-willed individual. Twilight overthinks things all the time, and was always an anti-social child that didn’t always get other ponies. She would probably have the same issues if Celestia never came into her life. Whether she would be better off or not is debatable. But, I highly doubt that Celestia didn’t know these things. Twilight definitely did put Celestia on a pedestal that caused some blind devotion. But, I’m fairly convinced that she is past that at this point. I mean, if she was still that way, she would be much more willing to trust Discord in the episode. As it was Celestia’s decision in the first place to trust him. Or y’know, Celestia would not have acted as she did in Lesson Zero if she was really to blame for Twilight’s behavior there. She even changed her policy on friendship reports to make sure it didn’t happen again. She didn’t think Twilight could be that nutty. Not to mention that, as far as I could tell, there is nothing in the show that implies that Celestia ever taught Twilight anything about friendship during their time together. And, it is implied that Twilight was never willing to learn anything about it. She wasn’t interested. Celestia was the reason she started to care about the concept in the first place. Twilight takes her studies and her responsibilities very seriously. She’s quite obsessive herself. She’s bound to create some awkwardness or some issues due to this.
 
And, as for Discord? I somewhat agree that Discord was trying to take a moral highground to teach Twilight a lesson in his own way. I mean, he definitely did. But, regardless of the result or his inherent nature, that doesn’t excuse him. As nopony was just gonna simply accept his manipulative tactic without some distaste. He was being a jerk either way. No one likes to be deceived the way they were by him. You’re gonna blame Twilight for having no moral standards, and say that what Discord did was fine just because it was within his nature? You really expected him to go scot-free? Twilight’s friends would stop being her friends if she was truly that warped. They all didn’t make a huge deal out of it because they are smart characters that care about each other. They wouldn’t dwell on the situation because they knew that nopony was acting with malevolent intent. They knew that it was all a big misunderstanding. And, nopony was willing to cause more of a fuss about it. This is nothing to lose a friend over or cause a giant argument.
 
If someone is gonna retort, I think I’m not replying anymore. I’ve tried to defend this long enough. Most people will still disagree.

@Lokizade  
Yep, we cool. :)

@atalarikt  
Oh, just the usual bickering and insulting that you find on this site.  
It’s quite sad honestly.

@Mike  
The comments. I know what happened in the episode because someone spoiled it for me, but I don’t know as to why the drama still happens.

@atalarikt  
The comments or the image?

@CronoM
 
@CronoM  

 
Competing with you? I don’t have a chance in. Stop selling yourself short.
 

 
Yes well, the least you could take from this is to warn somebody the next time you plan to shit all over your keyboard before hitting ‘post’.

Haven’t even gone past Season 1 (because I’m a newbie brony), and man, I think I can relate to Twilight on this scene.
 
Also, what happened here?

@rdibp  
At least until insults and whatnot are thrown around and then a mod comes in and locks the comments.

@Mike  
But we feed off of bickering. :(

@CronoM  
I’ve written out a lengthy response that falls in line with my already explained thoughts but expands a bit more in some areas yet again, I will PM it to you later and we’ll take the discussion there instead, though admittedly, I don’t wish to keep it going too much longer, I don’t have a whole lot more to say on the subject without repeating myself, and it’s apparent that we’re just on different pages in a few regards.
 
@Mike  
Yeah, we really filled this page up, we’re cool though, CronoM and me have had a few discussions like this before, no hostility.