@Somber Star
…Wow. With an introduction as conceited as that, I doubt your argument would of been the most open-minded, clever, or unbiased argument here. Probobly the worst of all three accounts.
At the very least, thank you for warning all of us ahead of time that your argument would of been unimaginably arrogant. Now no one wants to hear it.
“As soon as the others learn of Discord’s deception, they instantly stop laughing along with him, and give him a taste of his own medicine, which admittedly was nice to see, and I liked the ending overall.”
Except the other 5 showed willingness to play along with Twilight’s insanity all along until Twilight finally accepted reality and grew a little. Just like Discord wanted, just like the actual fans of Twilight’s character want, and just what the other 5 wanted. They were still mentioning the events over and over, and the only thing that changed was how it happened from Twilight’s perspective, which was necessary for her growth otherwise she would just post the blame on her choice. Again, this could of happened at any time anyway
And Discord’s “commupence” came out of nowhere and had zero context at all, making their laughing a transparent ruse to someone as intelligent as early Discord. They merely regressed his intelligence to Smooze’s episode level. They just pulled this ‘prank’ on Discord out of their ass with no preparation or context. If you thought it was well deserved and fitting, it makes it sound like you hate Discord for hurting Twilight’s feelings to a, honestly, petty degree. Even when Discord is more responsible for Twilight growing for the better then Celestia.
“she’s simply expressing that it’s something that she shouldn’t be feeling because of her standing and her responsibilities”
Those concepts spawned FROM her ego drilled into her head by Celestia. And her lack of faith in her friends? That’s from her close hearted attitude to matters she feels pressured by Celestia, or by extension, by her Princess posiiton. That’s what happens when you elevate someone to such a high degree for deeds that are not just your own, but sometimes not your own at all, like Pinkie’s success with the Yaks. Twilight isn’t an evil person, she’s simply weak-willed, and Celestia has interfered with her life so much that her ideas on friendship are warped.
Even the introvert, Human Twilight, is a far more open-minded person then our Twilight, Human Twilight admits she’s not bound by the desire to succeed for others or even herself, she actually wants to find her own path and simply find her true self. She has similar attributes of weakness to peer pressure and being influenced by others, but Human Twilight had a normal enough childhood that those problems don’t define her.
People like Discord and Sunset want to help Pony Twilight and show Twilight a different way of thinking then Celestia’s, for obviously different reasons of course. Sunset’s is now a better and wiser person then Celestia is now, after reflecting on the mistakes both she and her surrogate mother made in their relationship, and Discord just wants to kick Celestia off her perch like the Trickster he is, with Twilight as the obvious target of Celestia’s pride.
@Lokizade
“For us as the viewers”, we are honest enough with our feelings to speak their mind and not think so little of our friends. What makes you think Twilight represents the average viewer this time? This episode demonstrated some of the most extreme but well-known flaws in Twilight that are barely relatable.
Nothing super special was supposed to happen that weekend anyway. From the other 5’s perspective, it wasn’t supposed to be a life-changing bonding experiance, and Twilight willingly sealed herself away from her friends for 3 days. This could of easily happened without Discord’s trickery. That’s what the more moral Q-esque lessons are all about. He could of just jumped in while the other 5 were hanging out. Twilight didn’t begrudge her friends for what happened, the emotional barrier was Twilight’s and Twilight’s alone. Its something she’s always had.
“Discord’s manipulation and deception was the problem, if the story had happened in a way as to where Twilight was presented with the option to go with them, but declined of her own accord, and THEN started to feel jealous and express those emotions after finding out that they had a great time, the moral would have been better placed overall.”
Nothing could be farther from the truth. Twilight had to see how easily it was for a tiny misfortune to make Twilight reveal her lack of respect and warped morality regarding jealously and other normal emotions. Twilight’s too lucky to recieve any misfortune as missing out on something big normally, and even if she did, she would of learned nothing about herself. The things she was left out of recently simply didn’t relate to her, but this was in Ponyville with all her friends. All she would of done is consider that choice of not going as a mistake, making herself the scapegoat, but ONLY for only the action. Not the morality. That’s the major miscalculation you forgot to factor in.
But the way Discord presented it with the deception, a choice of hers wasn’t in the equation, so Twilight started to begrudge Discord for the situation that seemed out of her control, and instead of just accepting it and admitting to being a little jealous, she showed her friends an absolute lack of respect while trying to rationalize her feelings without admitting to them.
The average person handles a situation of a lost opportunity many times since childhood, and deal with it far better. This is Twilight, who doesn’t have much misfortune in her life, and she dealt with it by running away from her emotions and showing no faith in her friends.
@PonyPon
In other words, Twilight was overthinking her position as a role model. She needs to adhere to a very literal structure in her life. For her, being the Princess of Friendship literally means she needs to exude friendship at all times. If that is compromised for any reason, it begins to get to her. Even if the reason is herself.
@PonyPon
I mean, you’ve just got to analyse her title to figure why she may think this, jealousy is not a particularly positive or desirable trait for anyone.
I imagine she just feels that having such a title shouldn’t embody negative traits or emotions, and that they’re not things that she should express herself, lest they have a negative impact on others also.
@Zebasiz
But there’s nothing to suggest that if Discord had no involvement that they wouldn’t have at least knocked on the door to suggest that she join them, Discord however, made sure that this couldn’t happen at all, and therein lies the problem.
No, it fitted well with his character before the S4 finale, when he was acting like this regularly and was still in the process of becoming good, it doesn’t suit well after the S4 finale IMO, Make new friends but keep Discord did his character a lot more justice in my eyes, and is a better representation of how I feel his character should be after the finale, I talked about this a bit more here if you’re interested.
@Lokizade
I agree he did do it on purpose in order to construct the situation. But thinking about it from a different perspective. I could easily see a situation similar happening without Discord. Where the ponies knew Twilight was doing her big Book organizing deal. And, knowing her as they do, decide to let her have her fun with it instead of bringing up a distraction for her.
If they think she would rather be doing her organizing [which isn’t an unusual thing for Twilight in the past.] They simply not invite her. It happens with friends, you think one won’t enjoy the activity you and some others are doing, or you know they are doing something else that they really enjoy. So you let them do it.
On the topic of Discord teaching the lesson through manipulation and deceit: I feel it fits perfectly with his character. He was always a deceiver and manipulator. And he still is. But now he does it in order to try and help the others. It’s how he’s acted his whole life as far as we know.
He hasn’t become a wonderful example of a “good guy” but he IS trying to help and support the others in the way he knows best.
@CronoM
Also, people are misunderstanding what Twilight meant about her feelings towards being jealous, she’s not being conceited and egotistical about it, she’s simply expressing that it’s something that she shouldn’t be feeling because of her standing and her responsibilities, not that it’s literally impossible for her to feel that way.
It’s not her saying “I’m just too GREAT to possibly feel this emotion”, but rather that she feels she should be above it, and that it’s an emotion she’s not really allowed to feel.
@Zebasiz
No, that is how it went down, and it probably wasn’t difficult to convince them as I’ve said before as well, but regardless, was it his place to say that without at least consulting Twilight about it first and giving her the opportunity and freedom to make her own decisions? no.
@CronoM
Teaching her that having a feeling of jealousy is ok is fine, that’s not the issue, the issue is that Discord was manipulative and deceitful about it all, he made sure that Twi was unaware that the other five were doing something she might have wanted to take part in, and he made sure that the other 5 thought that she didn’t want to join them anyway, even though Twi didn’t get to make any concious choice on the matter herself, and this created an emotional barrier between them all, the other 5 didn’t think they were making Twilight feel uncomfortable and left out, but from her perspective, and for us as the viewers, that’s exactly how it felt.
Discord’s manipulation and deception was the problem, if the story had happened in a way as to where Twilight was presented with the option to go with them, but declined of her own accord, and THEN started to feel jealous and express those emotions after finding out that they had a great time, the moral would have been better placed overall.
As soon as the others learn of Discord’s deception, they instantly stop laughing along with him, and give him a taste of his own medicine, which admittedly was nice to see, and I liked the ending overall.
Nobody has an issue with Twilight showing flaws and overcoming them and learning lessons, the problem is that her concerns in this episode turned out to be justified because Discord WAS screwing with them and he WAS goading her, trying to force a “lesson” in such a warped, awkward way instead of just letting Twilight learn one on her own, the way he was written in this episode and how he acted concerned me greatly, as I’ve expressed.
People keeps saying Discord lied to the ponies about Twilight not wanting to be with them. But I’m pretty sure he said he convinced them not to invite her at all. Using the excuse that she wanted to focus on organizing her books. [Which was true.] I think even Applejack said he used that as an excuse for why they shouldn’t invite her. To “be considerate” of her wanting to do her organizing. Which I would think her friends are used to her doing, so it probably wasn’t that difficult for them to agree that they should just let her do her thing.
Feel free to correct me if I’m remembering incorrectly.
While I agree with the opinion of Discord being more to his older self before S4’s end and that being a good thing, I’d have to disagree with you on the idea that her friends acted two dimensional.
In my opinion, while the other 5 didn’t know that Discord had lied about Twilight rejecting the offer, the fact is that she spent 3 days holed up away from her friends, something she would of berated Moondancer for doing, and when things weren’t going her way, her inner feelings towards her friends in terms of respect was FAR more out of hand then any rubbing in the others did…
…Which would of stopped immediately if Twilight was even slightly honest to them or herself.
Twilight does not confide in the other 5 the same way the others do, the only person she really opened up to is Sunset, who knew more about what Twilight was going through but was actually dealing with it.
In other words, the other 5 backed Discord’s play, at least until Twilight would open up more to them. They didn’t fuss too much about her insane re-enaction idea, they only pointed it out after. Of course, they did NOT know Discord aided things along with a lie, that got them somewhat peeved, but this was still an important lesson for Twilight to learn despite it being done by trickery.
Heck, this episode was foreshadowed in detail by Discord near the end of the episode Princess Twilight Sparkle, when Discord tricked Twilight into going back to her friends for jealous and partially non-heroic reasons. Twilight was allowed to have some self-analysis about her flaws BEFORE the end of episode coddling, unlike Three’s a Crowd where Cadence coddled Twilight before she could reflect on anything about reality Discord was trying to teach.
While it wasn’t the best written episode, there’s barely anything negative about this event. Discord helps Twilight grow as a person for her own good. Compared to the rest of the main characters who are infinitely less fortunate then Twilight, Twilight’s had far bigger issues and less good lessons from emotional distress. Twilight almost always gets a free pass.
They other 5 still like Twilight more then Discord, but they didn’t feel THAT bad about bringing her to a strong emotional response because they were doing her a favor, at least until they found out it was partially based on a lie. We are talking about Twilight, not just some random person who feels left out in a similar fashion. Her friends know she has issues, but intervening directly is nearly impossible because she’s always been Celestia’s student. Extreme problems take extreme measures, and this trickery was mild at best if its for the sake of her growth as a person.
This isn’t like Mysterious Mare do Well where Rainbow Dash’s ego and intelligence are made insultingly stupid, this was a small push to make the issues Twilight’s ALWAYS had in full view, and for Twilight to finally face them.
In other words, I’m happy that she got sad for a few seconds because if she’s never sad she can never grow. She has been depressed and withdrawn this season since she’s started to doubt the Princess of Friendship title but doesn’t know how to deal with those feelings. Discord gave her a lesson in facing reality that Celestia unfortunately would never give, that will eventually help her come to her own decisions and finally have some closure over her own life.
Twilight Sparkle fans should love this episode, not hate it. Who wants a character to be blind to her moral flaws over and over and over again so that she can never grow? That’s an icon, not a character.
@Somber Star
Yeah, I can see what you mean now that you say it more clearly and reasonably. It’s just something that didn’t bother me as much that Twilight’s behavior ended up overshadowing the bigger issue with Discord. I guess it’s because the episode really grasped me personally with Twilight’s characterization. And, I just passed off Discord’s character as just the author only using his base character. Something we’ve seen before that fans really appreciated about Discord, and still do. However, he was not really considering Discord’s current character development. And, it made the episode uncomfortable knowing that the writer was writing the scenario around Discord’s current position in the show (being friends with the mane 6). But, with Discord’s old behavior. And, everypony really didn’t penalize him enough. But, hey, it wasn’t enough to ruin it all for me. There have been worse episodes that I have more problems with.
@pwingbrony
One of my problems with this episode was that Twilight was right: all of the inside jokes used by Discord among the other members of the Mane 6 were really not that funny. The fact that he kept milking them and that some of the ponies were breaking character to laugh excessively at them only made those bits even more cringe-worthy. And given Discord’s history and generally untrustworthy nature, her friends should have given Twilight the benefit of the doubt when she wanted to test them for mind-control. It’s not an insult against them like they treated it, it’s a problem they fell victim to before. From Discord specifically.
Which of course leads to the bigger problem with this episode: there are much bigger issues that could have been approached with its storyline that were simply brushed aside for this little fit over something entirely inconsequential. I mean, the main character’s core circle of friends are met in the company of a barely “reformed” villain after a few days with absolutely no contact and are all acting strangely, especially in terms of their relationship to him. And yet Twilight’s suspicion here is what she gets discredited for (by said friends), not petty jealousy over having missed out on one type of fun for another.
I get that this show is intended for small children, but I hope that that is taken into consideration when they decide what behavior the role model characters exhibit. More importantly, it should be considered when they decide what behaviors exhibited are encouraged. Being suspicious of an individual who has betrayed the trust placed in him repeatedly is a rational response and Discord’s having actively taken effort to isolate Twilight is not something that should’ve been swept under the rug, least of all with an excuse so pedantic as ‘Hey, she learned something about friendship!’.
@pwingbrony
That’s pretty much my thoughts on the new episode on the table there, I was seeing notifications from you guys discussing it and I just wanted to lay down my two cents for consideration really.
@pwingbrony
I was speaking briefly before with someone else about the notion that her friends wouldn’t trust his word on Twi not wanting to join, here’s what I said.
@Lokizade
Oh yes. I was so caught up on the ending as a whole, that I forgot about that detail that her friends were mislead by Discord as well. Yep. Discord was more like his old self after a certain point of the episode. Which was strange, and is probably my biggest issue with the episode as well. Sure, he was amusing enough. But, he really was completely out of line with Discord’s current character development. If this was an episode in Season 4, it would make more sense.
@pwingbrony
May as well expand a bit more here I suppose.
Discord was being his old manipulative, sadistic self, goading her on to get more and more upset, creating a rift between her and her friends, ensuring that they were kept apart, and that Twilight had no knowledge that they were doing something fun and received no invitation regarding it whatsoever, whereas if she had received an invitation, she might have accepted it, and if she declined the invitation, and had then got upset later on that she’d missed out, then the jealousy moral would have been better placed, without the need for more exposition, and Discord wouldn’t have had any reason to appear whatsoever.
The reason her friends were going along with Discord is because they were acquainted with the false knowledge that Twilight had already declined their invitation of her own free will anyway, which was falsely told to them by Discord, therefore they didn’t think they were making Twilight feel bad about it, but as soon as Discord tells them the reality of the situation, they all get annoyed at him, (I will say that I liked the way it ended, the turnaround was great, and it was a nice ending where they hugged and made up.)
My primary problem with this episode is the way Discord acted in it, (something I expanded upon here as well) it’s the same way he acted during S4 and before the events of the S4 finale, it’s not a way I’d have expected him to act after those events, and I think Make new Friends but keep Discord was a better representation of what I feel his character should be like at this point.
@Lokizade
I actually really agree with your point of view. To be honest, this episode wasn’t the greatest. Twilight’s friend were very two dimensional to the point where it didn’t matter how bad Discord was being. They just played along with him for most of the episode without giving it much thought and reacted accordingly. But, what I defend in the episode is Twilight, for the most part. Was she being a little unreasonable? Absolutely. But, she was in a situation where it sort of drove her in that direction. It actually made sense for her neurotic character. Like, I said before, she made a neurotic mistake and her friends didn’t quite realize it until her outburst at the end. I identify with that. They made light of it and told her that it was okay while also giving Discord his comeuppance. The ending made the episode work. Despite most of the episode being uncomfortable.
