Concerned Users of Derpibooru

SC Orion

@Background Pony #7360
Thank you for this response. Based on it, I have a few questions to ask you.

First, if the modern-day Nazis would use anything that could reasonably spread their ideology, does it stand to reason that the Streisand effect would be in their best interests? Censorship tends to backfire and increases the exposure of ideas that are being censored. Could it reasonably be inferred then, that Nazis would welcome Aryanne being banned because this draws more attention to the Nazi ideology? If this is the case, could this be taken to mean that censoring Aryanne, a pony parody of Nazism, is in support of a hateful ideology, as it prevents a parody (which can mock, ridicule, and weaken ideologies by pointing out their flaws) of their ideology from being shared?

Second, if modern-day Nazis are not interested in 'purity' of 'self-image', what are they interested in? Spreading their ideology? What is this ideology? If it does not include racial supremacy of the Aryan race, and if they accept Aryanne as a way to spread their message (as Aryanne is a parody of them which can be used to mock them), does it stand to reason that they are not actual Nazis, as they do not focus on purity as the Third Reich Nazis did?

Third, and this mostly applies to Osha's response (and I wasn't going to mention anything about this until Osha brought it up), Aryanne doesn't implant nazi ideology in the minds of kids. Firstly, 4chan and Derpibooru are not websites where I would expect to find kids, as it would most likely be adults who are on and know of these websites. While it can be reasoned there are kids who may be here, it is reasonable to assume that they have guardians which will be able to explain that nazism is bad. If they do not have guardians who can reasonably do this, can it be reasonably inferred that it is not the artists' or the artworks' fault, but the guardians' fault for letting such an ideology infect the minds of kids?

Likewise, as Digiqrow pointed out, if this argument is true, that simply looking at a swastica on the butt of a pony can turn you into a Nazi, then it is reasonable to conclude that looking at a picture of any symbol from any ideology will lead to radicalization. This argument is flawed, in part since it would open an attack path to arguing that any and every conceivably ideology should be banned from the site. I support freedom and liberty, and thus would argue that it should be allowed, as people should be free to make their own decisions. Likewise, forcing someone not to adhere to an ideology, no matter how bad it is (that is to say, no matter how bad the ideology you are forcing them away from), is an exercise in authoritarianism that one may claim to fight against, and could conceivably be taken to use against you as proof that you are, in fact, in the wrong, as you are forcing your ideology on someone else against their will. Forced religious conversion comes to mind, which I think the majority of people would find detestable today.

Likewise, it can be reasonably inferred that it is unlikely for the small percentage of children which may be here to find and art which could conceivably radicalize them, especially considering that scientific evidence does not support this claim, as Filliecs pointed out in his post here.

This also brings me to another point. Nazism is an ideology with many flaws. As such, I would think it is better to let them speak so that others will see how bad of an ideology it is, which strengthens arguments against it because of how easy it is to argue against it. Based on this, is it reasonable to infer that it is better to have an open dialog with Nazis so that you can show them the problems with their ideology so that they can be deradicalized?

Ignoring all of this, do you have any ideas on how to speak out against censorship on derpibooru, as is the point of this thread? Rather than debating politics and ideologies, we should be focusing on ways to combat censorship, though I suppose it is reasonable to consider that debating the ideologies can help fight censorship.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful response.
Moonatik
The Power of Love - Given to a publicly verified artist with an image under their artist’s tag that has reached 1000 upvotes
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
The Magic of Friendship Grows - For helping others attend the 2020 Community Collab
Charitable Contributor - Contributed to a series of art packs that helped raise over $10,000 for charity
A Really Hyper Artist - 500+ images under their artist tag
Dream Come True! - Participated in the MLP 9th Anniversary Event
Toola Roola - For helping others attend the 2019 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends

:twijoy:
@SC Orion
I think the issue isn't that Aryanne "turns people into Nazis" and it's more that trivializing historical Nazis into these leather-clad cartoonish supervillains (as a lot of people seem to do) downplays their overwhelmingly negative impact on history, and may cause people to not take them as the threat they are when confronted with actual Nazis. It's obscuring "oh god, they murdered millions of people in cold blood" with "haha look at how wacky this crazy nazi is! what a fun guy!". What you say about the Streisand effect is absolutely true though, as I have personally seen opportunist far-right demagogues capitalize on its effects.
doloresbridge
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition

Peace to all
@SC Orion

Ignoring all of this, do you have any ideas on how to speak out against censorship on derpibooru, as is the point of this thread? Rather than debating politics and ideologies, we should be focusing on ways to combat censorship, though I suppose it is reasonable to consider that debating the ideologies can help fight censorship.

I was trying to walk that line when I first started it. I figured that some discussion maybe needed because it is an ideological game but I wanted to try to find the way to oppose censorship based on a framework drawn on the fandom itself and its wide mix influences. I think that dividing the fandom on a left vs right destroys it, as their is a lot of shades of gray and a lot of people who don't fit into the neat categories that Internet polarization likes to split people into these days.
Background Pony #89B9
@Array
It is? Because that implies that they've never deleted images for their views before now.

And they have, for glorifying Nazism; attacking people for their race, sexuality, and gender identity; and otherwise being inflammatory. The site has always had standards and made decisions about what views it hosts. Any reasonable person can see that

Also, I would love an answer to my question. What moral right do you have to upload content to someone's site that they don't want on their site? Because, as the owners of the site, they can decide what they want on this site. That's what it boils down to. Legally and morally, and people keep hiding behind "it's a community and free place to upload pony images" (when it's never been a place to host every pony image as the mods have pointed out) to avoid this simple question.
SC Orion

@Moonatik
I can see the point you make, but I don't think it's the argument that's being used in support of censoring her.

The way I see it (and I'm not saying your view is wrong, mind you. This is just my opinion, and I would like to hear more of your thoughts) is that if it is solely trivializing what the Nazis did, then the same can be applied to the likes of Stalin, or any OCs (and granted, I cannot think of any) that could represent Stalinist supporters (and I am not saying Aryanne is supporting Hitler, either; her meaning is subjective as to the viewer's impressions), and would be an argument for more censorship, not less. Because I support freedom and liberty, the right to express ideas, and oppose authoritarianism and censorship, I do not believe this argument should be used.

I have heard it said that the best way to fight fear is with laughter, and based on this, what better way to strip power from an ideology that uses hate (and fear) than to laugh at wacky portrayals of them? There is, to my knowledge, nothing that say the two concepts that "Nazis did horrible acts" and "Mocking something steals its power" cannot both be true at the same time.

Granted, I may be misunderstanding what you are aiming for. I would agree that trivializing what the Nazis did is wrong, but putting them on a pedestal where you cower in fear at what there were, I would argue, is also wrong.

In the interests of keeping this discussion focused on what can be done on the topic of resisting censorship on derpibooru, and to refrain from political or ideological sides, do you have any suggestions on what could be done to fight against censorship? I feel that nearly every idea has been discussed already, as I see only a few options as I have said before, but I would welcome more ideas.

Thank you for your response.

@doloresbridge
I suppose one framework that could be used to argue against censorship is that, as is evidenced by the threads and visible backlash, that censoring any opinions is, in of itself, divisive. This then could be taken to show that it is directly counter to core values of the show, which does not promote divisiveness.

I will concede that this argument itself has flaws, as backtracking on the decision now would also be divisive as people would be upset by this revision of policy that they view as positive.

Likewise, Background Pony #89B9 has a decent point in that derpibooru has no obligation to host views with which they disagree. I likewise believe it has been pointed out in the past of this thread that artists have no obligation to upload here, either, if they disagree with their views. However, this seems to lead to escalation, which could lead to further division within the community.

Perhaps the best solution would be to create a decentralized version of derpiboou, hosting art over several nodes (with the ability for anyone to host a node). Likewise, this system should be immune from censorship, as if one party blocsk content, another party should still have said content. I do not know the technical details of this, but I am aware that there are methods to do this. Blockchains/cryptocurrencies could conceivably play a role in this as well.
Wiimeiser
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Dream Come True! - Participated in the MLP 9th Anniversary Event
Wallet After Summer Sale -
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
Artist -

(Foil Hat)
You want to know something sad about all this? I believe stuff like this is the Watsonian reason the internet doesn't exist in most science fiction.

@Moonatik
So this reaffirms my theory that only negative portrayals are allowed. Has any country done this? I think New Zealand has planned it…
Background Pony #9BB2
@Background Pony #89B9
@Array
It is? Because that implies that they've never deleted images for their views before now.

And they have, for glorifying Nazism; attacking people for their race, sexuality, and gender identity; and otherwise being inflammatory. The site has always had standards and made decisions about what views it hosts. Any reasonable person can see that

Also, I would love an answer to my question. What moral right do you have to upload content to someone's site that they don't want on their site? Because, as the owners of the site, they can decide what they want on this site. That's what it boils down to. Legally and morally, and people keep hiding behind "it's a community and free place to upload pony images" (when it's never been a place to host every pony image as the mods have pointed out) to avoid this simple question.
Yes, seriously. Everyone keeps ignoring the fact that this site has never allowed people to put up anything they want, and that they really aren't obligated to either.

Honestly this has always been a fairly permissive site, and in my estimation still is. And getting this worked up over the banning of a character indelibly linked to some very problematic real world issues is just ridiculous. As is calling this whole thing censorship, since it's not like people can't still draw her and post the picture elsewhere, if they really feel like they need to. Heck, there is already other artwork here people do that for, and have for some time now.
Background Pony #CCAF
Hopefully by July everything is gonna be more chill (both worldwide and on the site).
Background Pony #28F6
There's another admin gone from the staff page. What could it mean?

All this radio silence…
Raptorshy
Fluttershy - For Patreon supporters
Best Raptor - Screeeeyay
Ruby - For users who have donated to the site
Gold Supporter - Gold Patron
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Happy Derpy! - For Patreon supporters
From the Night -
Wallet After Summer Sale -

Site Assistant
Derpi's official raptor
@Background Pony #28F6
A takeover.

Nah they're just dealing with a lot of stuff right now, IRL and otherwise and requested for the staff role to be hidden for the moment so they can take a break from the site. They're still active admins and I don't expect that to change.

@Barhandar
Expect to hear about this over the next couple days.
Wiimeiser
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
Dream Come True! - Participated in the MLP 9th Anniversary Event
Wallet After Summer Sale -
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
Artist -

(Foil Hat)
@RainbowDash69
Nah, that's one of the four I say "no" to (I believe we're currently the only sapient species within 20 billion light years to have developed space travel), the other three are "nothing" (Obviously), "Asteroid" (That's 2021, and if it's big enough it would be a mercy kill) and Yellowstone (Not enough forewarning yet)
Barhandar
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
The Magic of Friendship Grows - For helping others attend the 2020 Community Collab
Dream Come True! - Participated in the MLP 9th Anniversary Event
Toola Roola - For helping others attend the 2019 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Helpful Owl - Drew someone's OC for the 2018 Community Collab

(twi|pony)booru.org
@Wiimeiser
It's less about "developing space travel" and more "developing space travel that can go outside your star system". What are you gonna power a generation/sleeper ship with? Both fission and fusion last decades (in no small part because of neutron degradation of materials), not centuries needed, and everything else has way too low energy density. So far, the only feasible way to have interstellar travel (without digitality shenanigans) is turning your own star into propulsion system.
Barhandar
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab
The Magic of Friendship Grows - For helping others attend the 2020 Community Collab
Dream Come True! - Participated in the MLP 9th Anniversary Event
Toola Roola - For helping others attend the 2019 Community Collab
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Helpful Owl - Drew someone's OC for the 2018 Community Collab

(twi|pony)booru.org
Oh, speaking of site changes, has anyone (written down and) compared old patrons/money per month on Derpi's patreon to current? I want to know how silently enacting censorship in favor of one ideology, against another ideology, and making excuses for other ideologies (or ignoring them wholesale) affected it.
Background Pony #2A39
@Moonatik
I think the issue isn't that Aryanne "turns people into Nazis" and it's more that trivializing historical Nazis into these leather-clad cartoonish supervillains (as a lot of people seem to do) downplays their overwhelmingly negative impact on history, and may cause people to not take them as the threat they are when confronted with actual Nazis.

I think you're just complaining about zoomer humor which makes fun of everything and every ideology. There are probably at least as many memes "trivializing" communism and Stalin, not to mention anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-communism, centrism, and any ideology that's been thought of (as well as those that haven't). Zoomer humor relishes in pushing the buttons of both boomers and millennials who stereotypically get upset if you bring up certain topics.


@Background Pony #CCAF
Hopefully by July everything is gonna be more chill (both worldwide and on the site).

Let's see what my Magic 8-Ball has to say about it:
"Don't count on it"


@Background Pony #28F6
There's another admin gone from the staff page. What could it mean?

As Parasprite said they've retreated to their bunker. I consider it likely that this is to withdraw from public criticism while they still remain "active." Whether or not they were particularly pushing for the changes I don't know but I consider it likely from past behavior.

I don't know if GenericArchangel has done the same thing or has resigned from the mod team.
DerpyFast
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.

@Background Pony #9BB2
My concern is with the can of worms they've opened. If they raise the question "What are the moral implications of this one type of offensive or problematic content and our decision to host it?", it will inevitably raise questions about the moral implications of hosting all the other offensive or problematic content currently on the site. There are images depicting rape on this site. Do those trivialize rape? Are they rape apologists for hosting it?

The problem is that, up until a couple of weeks ago, Derpibooru seemed to hold the stance of "We don't really give a damn about specific moral implications, we just want to host images. Filter things you don't like." To me, this implies a strong freedom of expression and anti-censorship stance.



Look man, I've seen some shit. I really fucking hope that's the justification for hosting it. Without that justification, Derpibooru faces questions about moral implications that it is very clearly not equipped to handle. Like, fundamentally not equipped to handle.

Perhaps this has always been the Sword of Damocles hanging over the site, and I think they've dropped it on themselves.
Interested in advertising on Derpibooru? Click here for information!
Techy Cutie Pony Collection!

Derpibooru costs over $25 a day to operate - help support us financially!

This topic has been locked to new posts from non-moderators.

Locked

Lock reason: Thank you all for your feedback