Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

Background Pony #01F2

@BlitztheDragon
To be honest with you it is kind of incredible this is even a thing and I think many people feel this way. This actually harms trans people more than it helps them.

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ᎶㄖҜㄩ乃ㄥ卂匚Ҝ

ZAMASU

@Dustcan

@BlitztheDragon

It’s still surreal to me finding out that Biden is to the right of Reagan, particularly on immigration but also kinda on the economy.

But that’s what Democrats do, become diet Republicans. Obama wasn’t blowing smoke when he said if it was the 70s, he would be considered a moderate Republican.

I thought us libertarians were the “Diet Republicans.”

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IWTCIEM

@ᎶㄖҜㄩ乃ㄥ卂匚Ҝ

@Dustcan

@BlitztheDragon

It’s still surreal to me finding out that Biden is to the right of Reagan, particularly on immigration but also kinda on the economy.

But that’s what Democrats do, become diet Republicans. Obama wasn’t blowing smoke when he said if it was the 70s, he would be considered a moderate Republican.

I thought us libertarians were the “Diet Republicans.”

That pretty much explains Biden and Harris agreeing to a peaceful transition of power for Trump and Vance, and so many Democrats being fine with it.

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ᎶㄖҜㄩ乃ㄥ卂匚Ҝ

ZAMASU

@IWTCIEM
Well, you wouldn’t want another January 6 Riot, now, would ya?

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SleepySteve

Apples and Pears

Reminder that Germany’s government just collapsed so a far-right government is going to come to power earlier than expected.

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Background Pony #D717

From what I’m seeing right now, do the Dems have a chance to stifle the Republican agenda if they gain a small majority in the house, or will Project 2025 just stomp over that?

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Wiimeiser

(Foil Hat)

@Background Pony #D717
The latter. In fact, the Democrats will probably never be able to run again.

@SleepySteve
Do we know who the supposed leader of this new government might be? And how would it affect the rest of the EU? Will other European countries start putting Nazis in power too?

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Background Pony #01F2

@SleepySteve
@Wiimeiser
This is a little over the top lol. They will possibly hold an election over new years to form a if Scholtz vote of confidence fails in order to form a new government. I highly doubt Nazis will come into power. AFD might be a part of a new government and it might not be, but only as say for instance 30% of it in some kind of coalition.

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Commune

🚙

@BlitztheDragon

I don’t want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete

The “formerly male” is the most “whew boy” part of the comment

There are many implications of this phrase and none of them are good

Like either he thinks that 1) regular cis men are competing with his girls but he still doesn’t wants trans women to play or 2) he thinks trans women aren’t real women until they transition, but he still doesn’t want them to play

Either ways, seems like he’s calling for a total ban of trans women

It’s funny how the trans sports issue always gets the most pearl clutching and “feels over reals” reactions

Once again, the most sensible solution to this, I guess you can call it a problem, is to have T-suppression or puberty blocker requirements post puberty(once again pre puberty who gives a flying fuck) and college and post college you just slap on the standard HRT requirements and be done with the whole thing but Seth here once trans women excluded from playing sports in general

Thank you Seth, I can’t await for you eventual comments saying transwomen don’t belong in public bathrooms

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SleepySteve

Apples and Pears

@Background Pony #D717

Honestly I think Project 2025 is gonna implode as soon as they try to implement it when they realize how much more complex the American system of government actually is. Cutting corners won’t do jack shit. Never has an advanced democracy with a strong economy collapsed into authoritarianism overnight (besides maybe Hungary).

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BlitztheDragon

@Commune

Yeah these are my thoughts exactly. Let the kids have their puberty blockers and those “unfair” qualities disappear. Let the damn kids play volleyball with the teams they want, sheesh. This was a non-issue until Republicans made it one, and now at least some Democrats are trying to embrace the Repubs’ own bad faith framing and agreeing it’s an issue. THAT more than anything else is why support for trans sports bans have skyrocketed in the past year.r

EDIT
@SleepySteve

I hope you’re right, though I know they are going to do a LOT of damage, and possibly cripple a lot of our bureaucratic infrastructure and ability to deliver public services. They’ll likely get their Schedule F purge of civil servants through, and those positions filled with their own guys. Hate to see what will happen once RFK Jr (assuming he gets the HHS slot) abolishes the FDA.

Oh, and then there’s cutting funding to public transit at all levels. Bye bye Amtrak.

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Background Pony #01F2

@Commune
It gets the most attention because it cannot be solved by pretending the biological differences do not exist. The hormones and suppressants do not remove these differences like having more muscle fibers, bigger lung capacity etc. Trans athletes need their own scoreboard. We dont let men and women compete side by side in most physical sports, the same reasons apply here.

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Shimauma

@Background Pony #01F2
Then how come we don’t see results? How come we don’t have trans athletes regularly dominating? You are making a bullshit biological essentialist argument that will end up (as we have already seen with Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting!) harming cis athletes as well.

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BlitztheDragon

@Background Pony #01F2

To add onto what Shimauma said, I guarantee you never gave a second thought to the fairness of women’s and kids’ sports until trans people started becoming more accepted in public life.

Hell while this is anecdotal, I watched one guy go from “Nobody cares about women’s sports because they’re just plain less interesting than men’s sports” (his words exactly), to being REALLY concerned and a self-proclaimed expert on women’s sports and fairness therein as soon as he could use it to attack trans people, which he was quite open with his disgust toward.

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Commune

🚙

@BlitztheDragon
Now there are definitely massive biological differences between male and female athletes, which is why the whole sex division exists, but once you introduce HRT and Puberty Blockers, those differences disappear(again on average) to like, at the very worst, small percentage points of separation, not necessarily insignificant but definitely still competitive between the two groups, which is my main judgement factor here

It’s definitely not like trans athletes are going to overwhelm cis athletes any case, the most we would see is an over representation of one to ten trans:cis, which isn’t even likely let’s be real, trans women athletes will always remain a minority in women’s sports, acting otherwise is hysteria(no pun intended)

@Background Pony #01F2
Actually there are some studies that show things like lung function is affected by HRT so I don’t know about that

Also a study by the IOC may indicate that trans athletes are worse off than their cis counterparts

Further research is needed but really, if the differences between cis and trans athletes are still within a competitive range, who gives a flying fuck?

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Background Pony #01F2

@Shimauma
The ones you mention won their respective olympic sports no? And have previously identified as men in one of those cases.

@BlitztheDragon
Personally I don’t care as I am not a woman nor do I plan to compete in these sports. But putting aside reality like you do here will end up harming trans people as resistance towards them increases. Trump is already talking about an outright ban on trans people in women’s sports. Having a separate score bracket at least might have solved some of this problem but it’s been pushed so hard a ban is now incoming, sadly.

@Commune
No. These differences are more than just hormones.

A quick google search:

Results
Twenty-four studies were identified and reviewed. Transwomen experienced significant decreases in all parameters measured, with different time courses noted. After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM and muscle area are observed. The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy. - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8311086/

Effects are reduced but they still have more muscles and so on.

Sorry, but it is what it is. I am all for inclusion and all as long as people are not harmed by it but there are a few areas where this is not possible.

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Commune

🚙

@Background Pony #01F2
Jesus Christ listen to what I’m saying

I do not deny that there are some studies saying that trans women may be on average stronger or have some biological differences than cis women, the question is, to what extent is that relevant? Or significant?

If a trans women and a cis women were to compete and the trans women is on average better, but(and here’s the important but), not to the extent that it’s impossible or even improbably that the cis women could’ve beaten the trans women multiple times, why should trans women be excluded if the sport is still competitive between the two?

“But it’s unfair”, yeah fucking guess what it’s sports, different groups of people have different traits than each other, woopie doo, so long as it’s competitive I don’t care

Now to be fair, there are some indication that some physical sports have significant differences, to quote your source

The study reported that after 2 years on GAHT there were no significant differences between ciswomen and transwomen in the number of push-ups or sit-ups performed in 1 min. However, transwomen ran significantly faster during the 1.5 mile fitness test than ciswomen

However, your source also has another study that indicates

In this study, the race times of eight transfemale distance runners were compared at baseline and after one or more years of GAHT. After adjusting performance for age, the eight runners were not more competitive in the female category (after GAHT) than they had been in the male category (before GAHT).

The problem, of course, is that due to the incredibly small demographic we are talking about(trans women athletes in physical sports), any study is likely to have a sample size of like a few dozen people because not a lot of trans people are actually in sports

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Ciaran

Senior Moderator

君場森生きる

@IWTCIEM

That pretty much explains Biden and Harris agreeing to a peaceful transition of power for Trump and Vance, and so many Democrats being fine with it.

Or maybe they just believe in, and support, democracy and civil order.

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Zaknel

Mods-Ezekiel 33:11

@Background Pony #01F2
It’s been common knowledge since the dawn of man that men are biologically stronger than women in most regards. Some hormone injections won’t be nearly enough to get rid of that.

The fact this even needs tk be explained confuses me.

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Commune

🚙

@Zaknel
If you bother reading my comments you know I don’t entirely dispute this(even if some studies show that some aspects of strengths can be reduced down to cis women levels or even lower)

My point is not “trans women are entirely equal to cis women in terms of strength and endurance” it’s “trans women are unlikely to be so superior to cis women in strength and endurance to render them non competitive, which should be the most important factor in determining the fairness of trans women in sports”

But of course nuance is completely lost if you wish to strawman another person’s arguments

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Background Pony #01F2

@Zaknel
Indeed. The differences are more than just hormones.

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BlitztheDragon

@Zaknel

Ah yes, the Christian nationalist (Meanlucario before you say anything I am NOT talking about you) is here to explain biology to us.

Puberty blockers and HRT goes beyond “some hormone injections.” I’ve seen for myself what they can do, what with the trans people in my life. Yes, all other things being equal, an assigned male at birth who hasn’t been on puberty blockers from childhood and hasn’t gone through HRT will have an advantage in upper body strength.

But Commune came with the studies emerging on the subject matter. The advantages trans women have over cis women are inconclusive and difficult to measure.

Anyone making a fuss out of this is using it as a wedge issue in bad faith as a stepping stone toward their actual goal: Driving trans people out of public life altogether. It never stops at sports bans (which is already being enforced in Florida through mandatory genital inspections on any child accused of being trans, and that alone is too disgusting to justify with “fairness to the girls”). Bathroom bans are next. Then bans on puberty blockers. Then criminal charges for parents, teachers, and others who affirm a minor’s gender identity.

Oh, another side effect of elevating trans people in sports as a hot button issue despite how few trans athletes there even are? Now our kids will be conditioned to accuse their peers of being trans if they lose to them in a physical contest. We already saw that happening in the past couple years, culminating in the challenges to Imane Khelif’s “authenticity.”

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Commune

🚙

@BlitztheDragon
Yep

It’s worth noting that even the source I gave in the Forbes article is not entirely flawless. It failed to take into account which sports groups the athletes came from, they combined all different types of athletes and tested them

To be fair the authors noted this limitation and urge for further research to be taken, plus I highly suspect for the limitation I noted, the reason they combined all different types of sporting groups is due to the incredibly small size of transgender athletes that actually exist, so they legitimately could not have done a study if they hadn’t because then they would be studying like, 5 people as a sample size(this simply shows how much of an outsized issue this is though, if sports groups and scientists legitimately struggle to study trans athletes because of how irrelevant they are in the grand scheme of things, doesn’t this indicate this is fucking pointless?)

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SleepySteve

Apples and Pears

From a YouGov hypothetical poll:

If this played out this election, Trump would’ve won New Hampshire, Minnesota, Virginia, NE-2 and possibly New Mexico and New Jersey. GOP would’ve also gotten an unassailable majority in both the House and Senate, too. Like we’re talking education/Social Security/Medicare cuts and a national abortion/gay marriage ban, too. An actual single-party state.

Biden would’ve effectively caused the Democratic Party to cease as a viable institution.

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Background Pony #C8EC

@Zaknel

Even though I understand that it may not sound pleasant, men are generally stronger than women due to biological differences related to the roles males and females play in nature. This is true for many animals as well, and there should be no shame in that.

In my view, women should not have to behave like men (unless necessary) to be considered strong. I wish people could recognize that being a mother and embracing femininity can also be seen as a strength, rather than a weakness.

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