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I’ll catch up on this sooner or later :q
I’ve dealt with this ridiculous level of ‘spin’ before, and I really don’t have time for this. These are my final thoughts. Let me jot this down quickly…
(Plus, Twilight wouldn’t of had a breakdown if she listened to her more sensible friends more, and was taught to think of her needs over others less.)
Two, your interpretation makes it sound like everyone being at risk didn’t cause Twilight to have any temporary re-evaluation, and that she simply decided she’d rather get a D saving the world then a F saving the World, and that she should be ashamed of either. That paints Twilight even worse!
The world does not resolve around me or who’s dissapointed in me. I wouldn’t weigh one of the thousands of lives saved by asking Spike to take the heart over some dissapointment for the rest of my life, and she got depressed over a thousand in a day. If I might be berated for doing the job with teamwork, even if it was against the rules, I’d say it with my head held high and trust that she shared my sanctity of life.
4(& 9).Warning the friends about Discord was within her control. Plus the slapped on lesson of Crystal Empire made the other part part of her control too, but she chose to be more obedient then ever.
Fluttershy could of convinced Discord to hide them, they could of lured Tirek away from Ponyville(its a miracle Twilight’s house was the only thing destroyed, right outside the town). This is from Twilight’s judgement stance of course, and what SHE was aware of hindsight. Obviously Discord gave them the marked book beforehand to play both sides, but Twilight is still hasn’t questioned that.
6b. Did Twilight kick herself over understanding Trixie’s issues and trained past it? No, she just came up with a plan to get rid of her. It was Trixie who opened up to Twilight afterwords, not the other way around. Did Twilight kick herself over understanding Fluttershy’s issues? No, that was Rainbow Dash. Twilight DID seem to feel remorseful in MMC, but they left that hanging. No fault was pushed on Celestia or Twilight for the mind warp. Admission of fault after the fact is common with the other 5, Spike, and the CMC.
There’s a difference between following someone because you’re dependant on them and their approval, and following them because you believe them to be wiser than you, and you’re taking their advice. Lesson Zero is the former, Twilight’s Kingdom is the latter. Them forgetting about Discord (and the window) being able to tell Tirek about Twilight is serious idiot ball behavior on all four of their parts’ (and is my biggest gripe with the episode), but had those not been a factor, not telling her friends WOULD have been the best decision.
1: The initial action is not always important if nothing bad happened, and nothing bad almost happened. I could have hurt or killed someone by deciding to go driving for fun the other day, had I had an accident, but just because I don’t feel guilt over deciding to go driving doesn’t mean I lack empathy. Not everyone is of the type that dwells over “what ifs” in everyday life. There’s also the fact that she was having a mental breakdown when she made the decision, and she was going to work with her friends to reduce the chances of her falling that far again.
2: The only “cursing” Twilight did was that she recklessly ran into Sombra’s trap when she saw the heart. She NEVER admonished herself for trying to go by Celestia’s orders, she only saw that it was now clearly unlikely that she could get the crystal heart back in time, and thus decided to disobey them now that it was clear she could not accomplish both the test and saving the empire.
3: No, it’s not. Wishing for the best result when in the presence of the one that you believe you disappointed does not mean, in any shape or form, that you aren’t extremely happy or glad that you accomplished the more important partial good result. This only gets exacerbated when you are given extremely high goals by someone. Twilight WAS happy that Spike saved the empire, and her guilt over failing the test only started when she started to head back to Celestia.
4: Hindsight only causes regret if you’re the type of person to feel guilty over things out of your control. Some people can see that their decisions were as made as well as possible for the information known, and thus don’t feel regret over that, even if some other decision would have ended better with the benefit of hindsight. That doesn’t imply lack of empathy.
5: Yes, she put it on herself because she believed that only she was knowledgeable enough about the topic to actually help, and Sunset felt the same. You could perhaps chalk that up to arrogance, or putting too much stock in what other people believed she should be able to do, but not lack of empathy.
Twilight never said that helping Moondancer was the hardest thing she’s ever done. She said that seeing how she affected Moondancer was one of the worst feelings she’d ever felt, which is completely different. And no, the majority or all of those examples of empathy I mentioned were not treated as “problems to solve” by Twilight. Lesson Zero was her treating it as a problem to solve. The Crystal Empire was her treating it as a problem to solve. Twilight feeling bad for Fluttershy’s low wingpower was not her treating it as a problem to solve, her understanding that Trixie was not in her right mind was not her treating it as a problem to solve, her feeling for how miserable her friends were in MMC was not her treating it as a problem to solve.
Twilight felt that sending the friendship letters to Celestia every week was an assignment, but that does not mean that she didn’t learn the friendship lessons for friendship’s sake.
Finally, it’s impossible to judge how much the rejections in A Canterlot Wedding affected her in comparison to each other, because they were not in a vacuum. When Celestia came by, Twilight was not dealing with Celestia’s rejection, she was dealing with Shining Armor’s rejection, her friends’ rejections, and Celestia’s rejection all at the same time. It’s pretty evidence she’d feel worse at all those rejections combined than with solely Shining’s rejection.
And like@Millennial Dan, I’m out of time as well.
See ya.
Even after TCE, that hyper-dependency rules her actions and morality when trying to be a good princess, and reared itself in full force when Celestia asked Twilight to keep her friends in the dark about the magic transfer. Heck, Celestia didn’t even ask Twilight to keep Discord’s betrayal away from them, which caused the most damage, but Twilight didn’t tell them anyway cause Celestia convinced her this was all about her.
1.The action is important, not just the result. Those that don’t understand that don’t understand empathy.
2.That was not the reason Twilight gave when she realized she was wrong at the last second. She was cursing herself for taking Celestia’s orders over the danger everyone was in.
3.The best case scenario is when everyone lives. If someone is bogged down by the issue that ‘they did it wrong’, not for morality’s sake, but mere instruction, then that’s textbook lack of real empathy. The relief a normal, empathetic non-dependent person should feel for such a feat should be elation. The guilt from Twilight was overwhelming.
4. “she believed that she was putting them in LESS danger by not telling them.” Hindsight like that usually causes regret. Twilight didn’t give any.
5. “ and thus Twilight was disinclined to bring her into her own problem.” Seriously? In Twilight’s own words, Twilight pulled back on asking Sunset for help because ‘I have to do this’. Twi put it on herself because she felt that was what ‘the Princess of Friendship’ should do, even though Sunset came up with the initial idea. Sunset was probing Twilight to be honest with herself, and Sunset said she wasn’t going to help only if and cause this wasn’t over her head. Then Twilight’s admitted to the mindset I just said when they were locked up, and Sunset telling her how her thinking was wrong. When help for saving lives is just a request away, which Sunset kept it, then that isn’t selflessness.
All the episodes you listed were dealt with as ‘problems to solve’ for Twilight. Twilight swore that baring her soul for Moondancer was the hardest thing she had ever done, and its not difficult to see why given the way her life has been given to her. Speaking of dependency, in Canterlot Wedding, she was infinitely hurt more by Celestia’s rejection then her friends or even her own brother. Are you trying to tell me Twilight is not hyper dependent?
I’m not sure anyone would argue against Pony Twilight being unhealthily dependant on Celestia’s approval (at least, before the events of The Crystal Empire happened). A Bird in the Hoof, Lesson Zero, and The Crystal Empire all showed that very clearly.
After TCE, she seems to be at a more normal amount of wanting to not disappoint her teacher and ruler of the nation.
Pony Twilight is hyper-dependent, or Dependent Personality Disorder Syndrome. Maybe there’s something more accurate to describe Twilight, but the idea is certainly there. Due to her unique situation of almost always being given positive reinforcement, her problems are more one-sided, and she has built in her mind how to please Celestia in every facet of her life, to the point where the issues of others have a hard time circumventing what she thinks she wants to be for Celestia’s sake.
It is not debilitating (at least not all the time) but it reflects her day to day actions since the series started.
I should also note that, unlike Human Twilight who, while very boxed-in her own issues, she was still friendly, Celestia kept Pony Twilight mostly emotionally ambivalent UNTIL she needed Twilight to make friends with those in Ponyville. The way her Canterlot friends reacted in Amending Fences said it all…Twilight wasn’t outright mean, but she was mostly a lost cause back then. The only one of them really hurt by her leaving was Moondancer, who emulated Twilight a lot.
Human Twilight maybe a bit of a doormat, but she is not as severely dependent on others. She has less courage, but has far more of a free spirit then her pony counterpart, especially once she works past her anxieties.
In order,
1: Because as far as we or she know, no one was really hurt, nor did they seem distressed by the few minutes of lost time.
2: Because she believed that Celestia having faith in her ability to retrieve that crystal heart means that she should be able to do it without impacting anyone until it was clear she couldn’t.
3: She didn’t feel worse about the latter, she felt bad that she couldn’t manage the best case scenario, which she believed that Celestia thought her capable of. She never said that she’d sacrifice the empire to pass the test, or anything of the sort.
4: Because hindsight is 20/20, and when she made the decision, she believed that she was putting them in LESS danger by not telling them.
5: Because everyone, INCLUDING SUNSET, was putting it all on her. Sunset didn’t believe that she could help, and thus Twilight was disinclined to bring her into her own problem. That’s empathy, not the opposite of empathy.
There’s also a good number of cases where she shows true empathy, like in Ticket Master, Green Isn’t Your Color, Owl’s Well That Ends Well, Luna Eclipsed, Read it and Weep, Dragon Quest, Ponyville Confidential, Hurricane Fluttershy, Magic Duel, Spike at Your Service, Magical Mystery Cure, Rarity Takes Manehattan, Rainbow Falls, Three’s a Crowd, Maud Pie, Testing Testing 1,2,3, Equestria Games, and more.
I don’t feel she’s ever had a problem with empathy. She’s not especially good at it, but I wouldn’t call her deficient, either.
As much as I seem to enjoy disputes of this kind, I’m out of time. So on that note, I’ll just have to conclude that we have very different interpretations concerning the details in question.
I’m not trying to say that Twilight is without empathy…
(
Ughh, this would be so much easier to describe if I had that quote from Princess Natalia in Tales of the Abyss to explain)Twilight is a helpful person by nature. But there is an extremely fine line between doing good things to feel better about oneself, and doing good things because it will truly help others and not oneself. Unlike the other 7, including Spike, Twiight has remained quite unaware of the difference and stayed within the former for a long time.
Even since the beginning of S2, and with increasing severity in S3 and onwards, Twilight had demonstrated a certain ambivilance towards how her problems effected others. Something that changed in S5. Here are just a few examples out of many.
-What stopped Twilight from feeling less guilty about cursing the town with the doll and still more worried about her own worries about being expelled?
-What stopped Twilight from abandoning Celestia’s ‘Crystal Empire’ mission the second her brother got hurt, and decided to ask for help?
-What happened when in hindsight, she weighed the lives she saved asking for help against Sombra vs breaking Celestia’s promise out of brief good judgement…and feeling worse about the latter.
-What stopped Twilight from telling her friends about Discord’s betrayal and the magic transfer when Tirek was on the loose, and not feeling bad about it in hindsight?
–What stopped Twilight from asking Sunset for help for the counter spell for the sirens everyone was counting on cause she was supposed to be ‘the princess of friendship’, and when she couldn’t find an answer or even justify her actions, she curled up into a ball UNTIL Sunset showed Twilight to see past herself.
And what changed when Twilight found out how shitty she was too her Canterlot friends and wanted to fix it(could be selfless or selfish), Spike tried to justify that she was under orders from Celestia but Twilight rejects this(selflessness forming), Twilight tried to bargain for Moondancer’s forgiveness(her remaining selfishness showing its head), and when she only felt worse, Twilight tried to imagine what it was like for Moondancer and tried to not only help her, but bare her soul and admit this was the hardest thing she’s done(true empathy and selflessness forming)
Twilight is a nice person, but she used to see friendship problems as ‘problems’ to solve. She’s always had her safety net being the student of Celestia, and a lot of other things preventing her from really experiencing reality. Sunset’s example and Moondancer’s issues allowed her to truly empathize and feel the pain of the person in front of her. Twilight’s life is so full of luck, glory, and praise, this would be incredibly hard for anyone to actually experience, but Sunset got through to Twilight. I’m talking about TRUE empathy. Twilight finally understood it in Amending Fences.
Right, which means that it’s extremely view oriented on how much you interpret said trait to be there. However, unlike Sunset, Rainbow has had several episodes that specifically highlight her loyalty, which means that the ambiguity doesn’t matter for Rainbow, unlike Sunset.
No, it’s not false. None of her actions indicated any sympathy (and other than actually stating it, sympathy is the only surefire way to demonstrate that one is feeling empathy). We see two things in that scene; Sunset is angry at Twilight, and she says that her anger is because Twilight endangered her friends because she was reckless. There is literally nothing in the scene implying that Sunset empathized with Twilight whatsoever in that instance.
Sunset had a basic understanding of her friends because her status as the “outsider” of the group gave her a different perspective than the five arguing, or Twilight who was extremely distracted. Her understanding was because of that perspective, not because of any empathy that was never implied.
No, but it DOES mean that without cause for empathy, any conclusions drawn to whether she has any doesn’t have any basis. It’s much easier to conclude that someone has empathy for others who share mindset/circumstances/etc in specific scenes even without evidence than people who are much different.
No, it’s not the same, but sympathy is the surest indicator of empathy other than stating it, and Sunset did neither in that scene.
Yes, I did watch it. If you want to say that it supports your theory, then you’re the one that needs to point out specific sentences that do so. The theme of the song is how friendship is a constant even as life changes and goes by, not empathy.
Except we can’t see into her mind, so it’s impossible to tell if her empathizing with others fueled any of her actions when they’re not made obvious. You can interpret it that way, but unless it’s made obvious (either because the trait is obvious, like say, generosity, or because the show mentioned it), it’s impossible to claim that it’s definitely there.
Her anger towards Twilight could just as easily (and more likely, given that there’s no evidence otherwise) be merely due to her own friends being in danger because of her, and seeing that her friends are fighting more than they usually do is not a “keen” understanding of her friends. Literally none of that scene even implied that Sunset felt any empathy towards human Twilight at the time. Sunset has never shown to be especially knowledge driven (and you can be smart without being knowledge driven), nor did she show any sympathy whatsoever to Twilight’s statement that she only wanted to understand. Sunset was all “too bad” instead of “I know how you feel, but you should have known better”.
And no, nothing in Friendship Through the Ages showed any particular understanding of her friends on Sunset’s part. All the focus was about how friendship endures, not about how friends understand each other.
So she has all the better traits of the Mane 6 plus empathy, but she’s not actually better than them?
Nope, didn’t say that.
Also, note that unlike the others, Sunset did not pony up after embracing Twilight after they lost their special forms. As stated by her in the scene after, if empathy had represented her true self, her magic would have manifested.
The presence of magic matters, yeah, but there’s no evidence that the strength of it does, as long as you have it. I don’t think the elements of harmony or rainbow power would have been any more potent if you had say, given Sunset Shimmer’s magic to Rarity.
Her empathy only seems exceptional because of how human Twilight had nearly the same thing happen to her as it did to Sunset. The specific situation was created to parallel Sunset’s experience and show that she’s gone full circle from the forgiven to the forgiver, not that she has an especially strong sense of empathy. She didn’t spend any exorbitant amount of her time empathizing in Rainbow Rocks, and her rant at human Twilight after the second event in Friendship Games is basically the opposite of empathizing.
The magic inherent in the characters does play a role, though how it intermingles with so-called “friendship magic” is unclear.
As for the other issue, I think your problem is that Sunset’s capacity for empathy would only be obvious to you if it defined everything she does comprehensively. Sunset’s better traits also include all those found in the mane six. But her ability to relate to others, to put herself in their shoes, is one thing that does at this point come across as exceptional.
She has the ability to empathize with the specific situation that human Twilight underwent in FG, but I don’t see any indication that she has a greater general sense of empathy. She spent most of her time in Rainbow Rocks self-doubting herself, not empathizing, and her only real empathy in FG was in the finale, in a situation that very closely parallels something she went through. There’s no indication she’d have a greater than normal sense of empathy in other situations.
Yeah, she’s presumably powerful as a unicorn, but we were talking in the context of friendship magic, which isn’t exactly linked to the strength of your normal magic, as far as we know.
Sunset’s magic is special, because she is. Her history is quite unlike that of the other six. She has a perspective that the others do not, because they haven’t been through what she has. This gives her an unparalleled capacity for empathy, and thus, a very unique signature of magic. In addition to, you know, already being a powerful unicorn in her own right.
@Princess♠Molestia
In a way, we actually got both of the above versions in the movie.
I’ve felt Twilight’s always had empathy, so I’ll just say I have to disagree with you there (nor do I feel that empathy describes Sunset in Rainbow Rocks particularly well, either).