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Very true, I hope for that as well.
I think we agree and understand each other’s perspectives rather well, its just that certain things from Discord’s S4 appearences have us scratch our heads in different ways.
ex. Him saying whatever about Flutsershy’s name
Him talking about being pen pals and the intention behind that.
And his entire behavior in the Twilight’s Kingdom.
Since Discord’s character is complicated enough even without badly written finale’s that focus on Twilight, I think its safe to say neither of us know the full truth, if there is any.
Again, hoping for improvements in S5.
I’m not trying to discredit Fluttershy’s wisdom, I’m just saying Fluttershy’s impact on Discord is not likely as strong as some people believe. Fluttershy is not naive, but the position Celestia forced her in has forced her to act optimistically naive in practice.
When listing Fluttershy’s lack of wisdom, I was only saying that from Discord’s point of view. He DOES know how smart Fluttershy is, but he also knows what kind of situation Fluttershy is in. At the very least, he knows he can use Fluttershy as a trust life line, and use that to troll her friends.
I have nothing but respect for Fluttershy, and I’m glad that she is such a willing person to forgive and not hold things against people. And while Fluttershy has it in spades, that sometimes can come from the most unexpected people.
When Gilda blew off her steam immaturely from Pinkie Pie not giving her and Dash a moments time alone, and Pinkie decided to throw her a party, when Pinkie asked Gilda to shake hands, Gilda actually accepted it. In her perspective, she knew she herself wasn’t a very social or trusting person, she knew she wasn’t good around softies much, but even though Pinkie was incredibly annoying in her eyes, Pinkie WAS her best friend Dash’s friends afterall. So she shook her hand to try and make things work. So she shook her hand, and THEN things went downhill.
Back to Fluttershy, in Sunset’s case, its highly beneficial to all around. In Discord’s case, its sort of a mixed bag. Fluttershy’s not the same age as Discord or Celestia, so he will act out cause its not a solid connection, but Fluttershy’s non-judgemental personality is GIVING Discord something new, and he likes that.
Still, I would buy the ‘strong relationship’ theory better if it wasn’t just built on one of them. If Discord had an episode or a scene to bond with Pinkie Pie, that would of helped solidify he actually cared deeply. Being friends with her would of been a natural progression. As it didn’t, it felt he was using one person’s friendship to help him troll, even though he partially appreciated it. You know what I mean?
He mentioned the fact that they were writing letters, but gave no indication what sort of things they write to each other about, except that it was through that medium he was alerted to Fluttershy’s breezie trip. And of course, that line was as much for our informational benefit as anything else. It seems to me that while he was still a sketchy character, he certainly did have a very personal relationship with Shy.
I think you’re still giving her too little credit on the discernment side of things. Fluttershy knew Discord was still a troublemaker, but she just didn’t want to treat him badly regardless. Remember this exchange:
Discord: Ladies, ladies, I’m innocent. Would I lie to you?
Fluttershy: Um, maybe?
She knew he was capable of dishonesty, but she wanted to extend to him the benefit of a doubt. It’s not because he earned her trust or that she was gullible, she simply isn’t judgmental. She doesn’t interact with anyone in a way that would make them feel like a criminal. Kind of like when Gilda mistreated her, she still went so far as to bring her bird choir to sing at Gilda’s party, and not to discuss how Gilda had treated her with Twilight unless it was in private and after additional cool-off time. Fluttershy just shows everyone respect, whether they deserve it or not.
I suppose that’s why the scene above happens so easily. Even after Sunset’s past misbehavior, Fluttershy is willing to let her enter Shy’s personal space like that. I gotta tell ya, this is why I dislike it when people put her down. There are too few like her out there!
That’s right. :)
I figured I couldn’t remember what she said completely, just the general idea.
More exactly, Applejack says “I think the ‘reformed’ Discord is more obnoxious than the ‘before he was reformed’ Discord” :3
Everything up to the point you said “..wanted anything to do with him of her own free will.”
I agree with. This didn’t exactly make him want to change into a better person, but it did make him feel that he had a different option then ‘chaos tyrant’. He does appreciate that.
However, that doesn’t mean he had any inclincation to turn over a new life or reform. He simply decided to redifine himself as more of a traditional Trickster. Discord has no problem lying to Fluttershy who WILL believe his lies even after his reform, as shown when he mispronounced her name and lied about having no knowledge of the seeds.
In short, he likes HAVING a friend. Both for its selfish AND selfless benefits. BEING a friend is an entirely different matter.
“The mere fact that they became pen-pals speaks volumes, no pun intended. There’s no public performance to parade around in letter-writing. They would only be doing it if they actually had something to say to one another.”
On the contrary. He only told them this after the other 4 stopped listening to him after he started his sick-routine. The fact he asked Fluttershy to keep the pen-pal thing a secret was obviously so he could spring it on them, forcing the friends he DIDN’T care about to be more open to him so he could troll them.
He’s done this a lot, where he says a lot of deceitful things and then makes a comment or action to get Fluttershy on his side before they ignore him.
Ever heard of the game of tag called ‘1…2…3…Base!’
Well his version is ‘Troll…Troll…Troll…Fluttershy!’
And the Mane 6, besides Fluttershy aren’t blind to this method he’s using. As Applejack said “Ah think reformed Discord is more annoyin’ then unreformed Discord.”
And as for the horrendous Twilight’s Kingdom when he catches the stupid and/or goes undercover, I agree. It throws everything out of whack no matter how you look at it, and unless Celestia or something promised him something really worthwhile to act merciless to Fluttershy(maybe he thought the apology after losing his powers would be enough), it really just screws with Discord’s character.
And yeah, Twilight had no role in ‘reforming’ Discord beyond his word, so in the end the key was arbitrarily worthless.
Oh well, asking for a good finale out of S3 or S4 was far too much to ask I guess. Lets hope they take their time trying to figure out what to do with Sunset’s plot in Rainbow Rocks and the crystal castle plot in S5.
You know, I would say it wasn’t just Fluttershy’s trust that worked a change in Discord.
I always thought it was interesting how Fluttershy was perhaps the first and only person to ever put him off balance, starting as far back as RoH. What was interesting about KCaFO was how Shy also showed that unlike the other five, she had absolutely no apprehensions about forgiving him and appreciating his natural personality. While the others condemned his gags and showed him nothing but suspicion, anger, and in Twilight’s case, even an inclination to brainwash him, Fluttershy just openly and sincerely tried to be a friend to him.
By the end, Discord finally realized it. He was flustered, but until that last moment, he didn’t know why. Fluttershy didn’t act like she wished he was someone else; she believed he could learn to be himself without hurting people any longer, and she was right.
So then, Discord began to realize that for the first time, he cared what someone else thought of him, because she was the only person who ever actually wanted anything to do with him of her own free will. The mere fact that they became pen-pals speaks volumes, no pun intended. There’s no public performance to parade around in letter-writing. They would only be doing it if they actually had something to say to one another.
That’s why if it hadn’t been for that obscene two-parter, I would have to disagree with the notion that Discord didn’t hold Fluttershy in the highest respect.
Twilight, to keep things in perspective, had nothing but misgivings about Discord until the very last moment, when she asked for his freedom. (It’s like she absolutely hated his guts until he betrayed her and the entire country, at which point she thinks he’s her pal. Go figure.)
Heck, Discord didn’t even hide his favoritism for Shy in that episode, and yet we still ended up with all that junk. Needless to say, Twilight was stealing Fluttershy’s thunder big time.
As a side note on intelligence, I’d like to point out that Fluttershy is no dummy. However, Discord’s consciousness is a mite different from a normal person’s, so in some ways the comparison is apples and oranges.
My opinion of Discord is what its been for a while.
Discord understands friendship quite well, he doesn’t hold Fluttershy in enormously high regard, but he does have standards and he’d rather not break them unless he’s doing a big performance.(i.e. fooling them all)
His freedom and subsequent complete freedom once the elements were gone has allowed him to a new lifestyle…trolling the heck out of heroes and villains alike. However due to his history, its Fluttershy’s trust in him that allows him to do this. While he doesn’t have any respect for 4 of the Mane 6, he has a certain respect for Pinkie (kindrid spirits in a way) and Fluttershy. While Fluttershy is just a young, trusting girl, not nearly an intellectual equal…he does feel the need to at least treat her with some respect and hospitality. If he really was acting, I would believe his apology toward Fluttershy was partially sincere, and he even allowed himself to get sick at the end of Three’s a Crowd so he’d get sympathy from Fluttershy even though he mistreated Rarity and Applejack.
Sort of in the way when Q lost his powers in Star Trek, the only person who didn’t loathe him on the ship was Data, who did not hold grudges. While he knew that, he was honestly appreciative of Data for his company onboard the ship before he regained his powers.
One of the humongous problems I have with what you’re saying is that for it to be true, Discord would have to simultaneously value friendship and NOT hold Fluttershy’s in any high esteem. In other words, it would be the outright embracement of a complete contradiction. And if he had such a low view of friendship, he never would have turned in the first place.
We still aren’t sure if activating a key meant actually teaching a person about friendship, or if they simply believed they taught a person about friendship.
ex 1) Spitfire. I could believe Fleetfoot was a competitive ass, but Spitfire shifted way too quickly for it to be honest. ‘I knew I felt something special about you Rainbow Dash’? Felt way too much like a trial
ex 2) Even if Discord WAS being honest, it would NOT have activated a key for Twilight no matter what she did. Fluttershy was the one who ‘opened up his eyes’, so they key wouldn’t of worked to begin with. Twilight only freed Discord because he was Fluttershy’s friend. But Discord convinced Twilight she opened up his eyes, and that was enough to activate the key.
Sorry, but Discord was baiting Tirek so much, a high school bully could of manipulated Discord just as easily. Discord put on a freakin’ angel costume to bait him, there was no genius in Tirek at all.
~It was disappointing such a threatening G1 villain was turned into such a meathead. But that’s just my two cents.@Background Pony #37C1
Agreed, its far better then the alternative…it being a finale simply with shitty, shitty writing.
Yes, I really hope they do well with Sunset Shimmer’s character…and simply don’t push her to the side when Twilight appears. The lack of clips of Sunset in the finale makes me worry they’ll fall back into their bad habits (or bad Hasbro orders? Its sometimes hard to tell)
I’m not as dedicated as you are, this I won’t type out a long response to that even if I would like to…
But I will say it’s mostly what you were typing, about the “brilliance” part. However, if Discord really was just acting, then I doubt the Tree of Harmony would’ve accepted the medallion as the last key, after all he wouldn’t actually be sorry for what he did if it was all just a plan by Celestia, and/or him. (Honestly I hate that idea, the “all-knowing” Celestia. It reminds me too much of Albus Dumbledore from Harry Potter, but that’s another can of worms I’d rather not open right now).
What DHX WANTS us to believe is that Discord, after his “reformation” come to understood friendship in the way the the mane six understand it, after all “when you’re friends, you can’t have what you want all the time” in his own words. However, Tirek offered him something better, “freedom”, in other words, Tirek could be a friend and he actually could have “what he wanted all the time” if he was friends with him. Thus, he abandoned the mane six, or specifically Fluttershy, for that reason. Fluttershy wouldn’t let him be his true chaotic self, while Tirek, he reasoned, would. Thus he would be a better friend.
To be honest, I’d buy it. If anything, it truly addressed the villain decay Discord had gotten in a subtle way.
Pre-reformation though, I highly doubt Discord would’ve fallen for Tirek’s offer, especially since there was nothing Tirek could’ve used against him. If anything, Discord could’ve realized that Tirek has the magic-drain ability, offered Tirek freedom in exchange for draining the mane six (and presumably rendering the Elements inert), then betrayed him later.
Tirek is brilliant in that sense: while just small-talking Discord, being hopelessly beaten by someone far more powerful than him at that point, he sensed a newfound weakness in Discord, used it, and it worked for him. I think he deserves more respect and credit if you ask me.
On another note, I’m VERY hopeful for how Sunset Shimmer is being portrayed in Rainbow Rocks. She as a character has grown on me A LOT. One thing I do hope though, is that she doesn’t become a “Discord” 2.0, and Adagio Dazzle a “Tirek” 2.0.
I would say Discord getting Fluttershy’s name wrong certainly happened, but not because he actually forgot it or anything. He just thought he was being funny.
I’ve heard the theory you’re talking about, and I want to believe it… after all, it is consistent with Celestia’s bizarre, manipulative tendencies… the only thing is, it’s a somewhat big pill to swallow. But still, it’s a step up from the alternative.
I too am excited about Sunset’s character growth!
@Background Pony #37C1
I still agree with you, but let me address Josh103 on his theory. I think its one I’m familiar with.
@drumpowa
The problem is, Discord is NOT an idiot about friendship. He’s a trickster. On a good day he’s a social friendly guy to both his allies and his enemies, although his methods of “friendship” are ALWAYS going to be annoying. He has shown constantly after his release that he knows how to act like a perfect friend to get what he wants, with only a few people who can see through his line of thinking completely. He knows just how much give, give, and then pull the carpet from your feat during a friendly conversation without them shutting you out. Remember Three’s a company? He even used his ‘oh I’m such good friends with Fluttershy’ routine as a tool to troll her friends without them getting TOO defensive that they completely shut down on them. A trickster needs his friends agitated, not simply filled with hatred.
I mean c’mon, Discord didn’t take his stupid pills until he met Tirek. Before then, he was STILL making comments like ‘Oh, was I NOT supposed to spy on you? WhenEVER shall I learn the intricacies of friendship’
To say that Discord knew so little about friendship is ridiculous. And there is NO way you can believe Discord when he said he ‘truly, truly didn’t see it coming’.
@Josh103
I think I know what angle your talking about, the whole “Discord was acting the whole time routine.” to manipulate events with Celestia’s permission or request to make Twilight the hero.
Truth be told…the Fridge Brilliance concept was the idea I clung to for the first couple weeks after watching the episode. I mean how did the episode end after Discord publicly fed Tirek the magic of thousands of ponies? With Celestia accepting roses from Discord and giving her a wink?! (I’d post a gif of Pinkie Pie saying “Suspicious!!”, but even that would be an understatement.)
Discord will forever be in Rainbow Dash’s (and now Shining Armor’s) shitlist from now until doomsday, and I can’t imagine Discord ever being allowed to roam free unless Celestia was going to say ‘he’s okay’ to the public from the very beginning.
Yes, the episode was so obviously structured on Celestia’s part and Discord’s part to allow everything to revolve around Twilight Sparkle. But given that he gave them the means to defeat Tirek at the beginning of the episode, could the second half ALL have been an act from him?
A lot of scenes point to that possibility. I mean, why the hell would Celestia choose Discord instead of Luna in the first place? Once he started attacking in certain locations at night, it would of been almost as easy afterall.
The only thing that didn’t fit was the scene with Discord being surprised about how much magic was being transferred at once, as someone pointed out. But…was it the transfer that surprised him, or the sheer amount of magic? As both DHX’s The Journal of Two Sisters and IDW comics confirmed Celestia had a hidden reserve of power that was off the charts, something she never would of used on people she knew.
Eventually… I simply abandoned talking about it cause simply too few people could accept even the idea that an MLP finale would be built on that much deceit, and I don’t blame them for that (even though technically Celestia did do something similar in Crystal Empire). It just seemed too tedious a theory to stick with.
So before anyone tries to argue with this theory to me, I am NOT going to start another debate about it. My stance is neutral about it right now.
So was Discord hit with the stupid stick, or was Discord acting the whole time? I don’t know, it could be either, but I honestly don’t CARE which one it is. Either way it was a very manipulative way to have Twilight be the only important pony. If it was the Fridge Brilliance, I guess that’s a slight improvement, but that doesn’t change the fact Discord was AGAINST inflating Twilight’s ego in earlier S4. Those were some of my favorite Discord moments.
Stupid pill, brilliant acting, or actually believing Discord IS that stupid. Whatever it was, Twilight got a gaudy ass castle in the middle of Ponyville, when only the desk was necessary for S5’s plot. Maybe its best if we just try to ignore Celestia and Twilight’s ‘Princess Twilight’ plot from now on. Its far too frustrating to think about rationally.
As for now, IDW is providing Trixie’s character evolution, and DHX is providing Sunset Shimmer’s character evolution. Sunset didn’t start out as a 3-dimensional character, but if she wants to be, I’m all for it. I’m good for right now.
*Twi used friendship so that Discord could learn something he was/is still very new to
The whole finale was about Twilight, it was her key episode after all. This about Twilight using her element to improve another. Discord, again, never had a friend before FS so how would he know about friendship if he never had before then? This was the flaw that Tirek exploited. So when Twi used friendship to that Discord could learn something he was/is still very new to. This is why I didn’t see Discord whacked with the idiot stick. Or see it as this: he got whacked with the idiot stick to something he was already an idiot to.
I really don’t see how you figure that. I’ve come at it from every angle, but no matter how I look at it, the whole thing was simply contrived so that Twilight could save him. That’s it. No brilliance, no coherency, no believability, just more Twilight spotlighting.
From a certain point of view, Discord’s betrayal does make sense, in a, as TvTropes would say, “fridge brilliance” sort of way.
Your spot on. No matter how many ways you sugar coat it, they had to make Discord stupid as hell to make the plot work.
They’ve done it before for other characters. Remember Rarity and AJ in Rainbow Falls? They had no idea RD was faking it.
“I’ve put on enough shows to recognize stage fright when I see it!”
Who was it who said that again….was it Twilight….
…NO IT WAS RARITY!