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Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism Search Posts
Started by Princess Luna
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CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Princess Luna  
@CHurricane
That image is in need of discussion (see first part of this post).
 
Can you tell me when the discussion about >>2422880 will take place so i could go back to discussing it then?
 
And as for the votes:
 
First thing could you be more specific about percentages? Does it go down in relation to person( like 5 people= 75%, 7 people =73%, 10 people = 70%, 15 people= 65%, etc…) or is there a different way to calculate percentage required?
 
Second thing: If I understand some of posts made by Derpy Whooves, there are staff members that doesn’t understand the new rules and how they should be implemented but from what I understand they are allowed to vote when deciding what picture to delete am I right in my understanding?
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Derpy Whooves
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Looking For My Doctor
@Northern  
You’re cherry picking. You see the site says something about itself. You ask about that. We - representing the site - answer your questions and try to explain that you have misunderstood how we are using that word and why we chose it. You reject our replies and insist that we have to live by your original misinterpretation.
 
The site - I and other staff representing the site - have repeatedly answered your questions about what we mean when we call ourselves an archive, and we’ve agreed to consider other terms for ourselves in the future.
 
If you feel this is something that is worth discussing, please create a new thread for it. It really has gone beyond obsession at this point, and what we mean when we say we’re archiving pony really doesn’t have anything at all to do with the Rule #0 change. So please create a new thread if you want to continue to talk about this.
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Background Pony #0CFF
@Princess Luna  
You’re still not answering the question.  
You and ‘a few’ ?  
That means nothing.  
From what i can infer it’s you and four others making most of the rule 0 judgements, given you stated ‘five’ as a minimum before and Celestia is one of those.  
Given that LB responded here i can assume they are a 3rd.  
any time that the votes so far can’t be used to easily rule on an image (very few votes, or many but very split), I start bringing in those who haven’t yet had their say.
 
So as i understand it if five people agree to something being deleted, it’s gone, but if you can’t decide (Because split votes or those five aren’t all present) then more people are brought in who don’t normally arbitrate such decisions.
 
Again, this is completely ludicrous for achieving any form of consistency.
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Derpy Whooves
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
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My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
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Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Looking For My Doctor
@Background Pony #0CFF  
Who exactly can explain and is deciding on what breaks rule 0.
 
I think Princess Luna is doing an excellent job.
 
@Background Pony #0CFF  
Asking questions and disagreeing with you isn’t abuse
 
I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t referring to any questions or comments in this thread. I was referring to the feedback that we are receiving separate from this thread, which some on staff have access to. And, generally speaking, harassing or insulting staff has not always been treated as a Rule #0 since we want people to be able to express themselves. “All Mods Are Bastards” is no more rule breaking than “ACAB”.
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Derwol
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@CHurricane  
That answer had been noted previously and, I do believe, proven to be inappropriate. I am asking for the answer again.  
The same goes for the volleyball image. I think it’s a fair assumption to say both images were deleted for the same reason, yet the answer given previously would not apply to both of them.
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evan555alpha
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PSA: R0 was changed!
@Derpy Whooves  
I think Princess Luna is doing an excellent job.
 
And I think that they aren’t. A number of people think that, actually. It’s why people are asking why some images’ deletions happened. Those deletions overwhelmingly appear to be unjust, and you guys feel the need to shroud the real reasoning behind deletions in a mystery.  
What happened to wanting to be transparent?  
What happened to wanting to apply the rules fairly?  
What happened to wanting to be an archive?
Posted Report
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@Derpy Whooves  
Wrong. I have explained SEVERAL times in the last few posts that I am using your definition of the archive as nothing more than a representative snapshot. The idea of a representative snapshot is to take a slice of the entire community at the time, as you stated, thus the ethics of that are simple;
 
1) The snapshot must be representative of the entire community.  
2) The snapshot must not be exclusive to members of the community.  
3) The snapshot must include as much information about the community from the time period as possible.
 
The idea of excluding users or types of expression from that snapshot based on the offense of other users betrays the very idea of a representative snapshot, ergo, even using your definition of an archive no longer fits this site. Thus, either the site should conform to your personal definition of an art archive or it should make a public acknowledgement that it is not one.  
what we mean when we say we’re archiving pony really doesn’t have anything at all to do with the Rule #0 change. So please create a new thread if you want to continue to talk about this.
You’re absolutely wrong this has nothing to do with the updated rule#0, as stated above, the updated rule#0 and its uneven enforcement violates the tenets of the type of archive you’ve absolutely expressed being. This is not off topic, it’s not obsessive, it’s just the same truth reiterated against new opposing arguments that, equally so, fail in front of it.
 
I know it can be frustrating to be opposed, but that’s the nature of taking authority in a community such as this. Authority means responsibility and responsibility means doing the right thing or being called out for it by everyone who sees it as a violation of ethics. I am not a lone person making these arguments. Behind me is the weight of a majority of the pony community that exists who disagree that any voice among us should be removed from a representative snapshot of the fandom. If I seem obsessive, it’s because I’m trying to find justice for a group whom the staff are currently marginalizing out of the community snapshot you are creating. If I seem obsessive, it’s because the community as a whole disagrees with you and I am doing my best to defend their position and argue for what is ethical.
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Derpy Whooves
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Artist -
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Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Looking For My Doctor
@CHurricane  
Let’s be careful about that statement … there’s some nuance there.
 
For myself, I can moderate Rule #0 with everything pretty well until it involves nazi-themed images, because I do not know why some nazi-themed images are deleted for Rule #0. For example, while images promoting IRL neo-nazi organizations are ‘forbidden’, they are deleted under ‘Rule #0’, which must mean that they are hate speech or otherwise harassment or something like that. But when I look at examples of images that were deleted for promoting IRL neo-nazi organizations I do not see them necessarily involving any kind of hate speech or harassment of others. It’s just a promotion for a political party. Previously, those were simply forbidden - Rule #5 - and that makes sense to me and I have often explained that to users whose images were deleted. But now that they’re Rule #0 I do not know how to explain that.
 
So, if someone is insulting someone else in Tartarus I can delete the post and ban the person and fill out all the necessary paperwork in the most minimal of ways so that it can be audited.
 
And while I believe that we should be deleting any image that insults ‘kikes’ for Rule #0 without having to discuss it, it sometimes takes a lengthy discussion to do so, and sometimes that is deferred for further discussion.
 
So … I don’t understand how Rule #0 works in practice with regard to nazi-themed images. There is some nuance in the process which is not clear to me yet.
 
Does that help give a better description of what I mean?
 
PS: I don’t come here after work to spend hours reviewing nazi-themed images, so I avoid it as much as I can. But if I’m already up to my elbows in holocaust humor then sometimes, sure, I’ll dig in.
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Edited
Background Pony #1A77
@Derwol  
We won’t get any explaination. All we will be told is that it violated “something” but they’ll not reveal what the something is. Perhaps it’s because that something is the staff’s bias forcing them to look for something, anything, even if it doesn’t exist, for a reason to remove the stuff they personally don’t like.
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Derwol
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Derpy Whooves
 
 
@Background Pony #0CFF
If a rule cant be explained to you in less than a minute, when you have direct access to and are part of the arbiters of said rule, how on earth do you expect regular users to understand it.
I don’t. That’s why I’m glad this thread is here so that it can be explained.
 
You just said a page ago that you do not expect users to understand the rule. You said if you were an artist posting Aryanne you would not have a clue whether or not your image breaks rule #0. How can you then say now that you think she’s doing an excellent job if you think you don’t expect users to understand it?
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Background Pony #0CFF
@Derpy Whooves  
Given the sheer kuffle and confusion over rule 0, i have to disagree, not to mention the fact you yourself said you dont understand the rule enough to moderate it.
 
I was referring to the feedback that we are receiving separate from this thread, which some on staff have access to.
 
But we’re talking about the context of this thread, and this site, what kind of abuse are you getting elsewhere that would discourage posting on this topic?
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Derpy Whooves
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Artist -
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Artistic Detective - For awesome dedication to sleuthing out and maintaining artist tags and links
Economist -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Looking For My Doctor
@Northern  
In all honesty - we have been really patient with you about this.
 
I will try to at least respond to your major points of what an archive should do, but this is the last post about this in this thread. If you want to argue that the site should become the kind of archive that you wish it would be then please make a new thread.
 
  1. The snapshot must be representative of the entire community.
 
That’s why I said that I am opposed to deleting all of the images of OC:Aryanne. Even when Rule #5 said that nazi-themed images were forbidden, I feel that OC:Aryanne is representative of this generation of fans, and exceptions should be made for at least her more representative images so they can be a part of the snapshot of this generation of fans. A snapshot of Generation 4 of MLP’s fandom would be so empty without her. But there’s a lot of those images that I don’t believe we should host, and there’s a lot of them that we have always deleted every time they get uploaded. So … there’s no requirement or expectation of ‘completeness’.
 
Also we don’t have to represent the entire community - there’s lots of themes and elements of this community that we will not host and users who have been permanently banned because nope.
 
  1. The snapshot must not be exclusive to members of the community.
 
Why not? We only host images apropos the My Little Pony franchise and the My Little Pony fandom. If images aren’t a part of that community we have no obligation to host it. I can only presume that we’re using ‘community’ in different ways.
 
  1. The snapshot must include as much information about the community from the time period as possible.
 
Well, there’s no expectation of completeness. For example, in the past we played with the idea of simply getting rid of all the “fluffy abuse” images. But if you define ‘possible’ as ‘what we are reasonably able to manage with our available resources’ including bandwidth, the laws of the land, the wishes of Hasbro, what is permissible within the gaze of the Ever Seeing Eye of LionsGate, and the available resources of our staff, then sure, why not? But there’s no expectation of completeness, nor is there any requirement for it. If an artist wants something they made deleted, we delete it. Same thing for images that are more trouble or risk than they are worth, like images from the movie leak.
 
I know it can be frustrating to be opposed,
 
This isn’t about being opposed. This is about you holding us to a standard we never set for ourselves, and which we have no interest in picking up.
 
If you want to continue to discuss this, please make a new thread. I know others would like to talk about what kind of archive they would prefer, too.
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Derpy Whooves
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Artist -
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Artistic Detective - For awesome dedication to sleuthing out and maintaining artist tags and links
Economist -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Looking For My Doctor
@Background Pony #0CFF  
Given the sheer kuffle and confusion over rule 0, i have to disagree, not to mention the fact you yourself said you dont understand the rule enough to moderate it.
 
Not with regard to images with OC:Aryanne in it, or a Dark Sun logo, not by comparison to other kinds of Rule #0 images. But that’s not a problem because I can just report it and when someone else on staff who does work those images picks it up I can contribute to the discussion about it.
 
But, yeah - there’s nuances in this new rule change that I don’t get yet.
Posted Report
Derpy Whooves
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Artist -
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Artistic Detective - For awesome dedication to sleuthing out and maintaining artist tags and links
Economist -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Looking For My Doctor
@Derwol  
How can you then say now that you think she’s doing an excellent job if you think you don’t expect users to understand it?
 
I think their answers have been very good, and usually considerably shorter and more on point than anything I could have written. Like most rule changes, it takes some practice to figure out how it chances processes and practices. And, as I’ve said before, with Rule #5 “anthro+foalcon=delete” - easy peasy. There’s no such simple formula for this change. But, over time, we’ll get this figured out.
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aperture_tech
Duck - Quacking with portals.

lol
@Derpy Whooves  
The fact that this has been going on for about two months and nothing has improved (beyond a few days of a lull a few weeks ago) is literally evidence that shit isn’t being handled the correct fucking way at all. I gave quite some time to let you try and at least attempt to fix this mess but now I am certain that several members of the staff are ideologically motivated and the rest are either apathetic or too worried to speak up or the staff is outright incompetent.  
This shit shouldn’t still be going on and the daily circular arguments that have been put up by moderators is beyond tiring - the reason you keep hearing your users arguing here is because that’s all we can do. You can do a lot more, because all we have to go on is what we observe. Once again the staff is being incredibly opaque and it doesn’t matter what you say to us because what you say is at odds with what you have done and what we observe.
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Derpy Whooves
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Artist -
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Artistic Detective - For awesome dedication to sleuthing out and maintaining artist tags and links
Economist -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Looking For My Doctor
@aperture_tech  
Thank you for your feedback. Personally, I think I am still working to ‘fix this mess’, but I certainly understand why you feel that it has not yet been fixed. But I would ask that you try to be less antagonistic in your assessment of the situation. I assume you’re working from a basis of genuine concern for the site, and a desire for its longevity and the growth of its community. Please presume the same of the people who literally volunteer their time here every week to keep the site running.
Posted Report
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@Derpy Whooves  
Okay. I’ll make a new thread, even though I feel this is on topic, I’m not here to cause trouble. I’ll keep arguing here about the contradictions in implementation of Rule#0.
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aperture_tech
Duck - Quacking with portals.

lol
@Derpy Whooves  
It really shouldn’t be that hard: over the course of this, we’ve had four alternative Philomena based boorus pop up. None of these communities have faced much drama at all despite just coming out. The worst thing that happened was raptorshy not working out for ponybooru and that got nipped in the bud when it happened because ponybooru staff was transparent on the matter. Hell, I’d trust manebooru staff more than here because they actually chart down what they don’t want on the site, not bury it and then also try to claim they are an archival site. Users have put forward a myriad of different ways forward but it looks like moderator actions is just to wait for it to fade away. It won’t, the only thing that’s fading away are the users who cared. At least some of the DNPs are gone now. But so are the artists who enjoyed the community, they’ve left for other boorus and will not be back.
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CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Princess Luna  
What about this part of my question:  
Second thing: If I understand some of posts made by Derpy Whooves, there are staff members that doesn’t understand the new rules and how they should be implemented but from what I understand they are allowed to vote when deciding what picture to delete am I right in my understanding?
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