I’d just like to say that I didn’t expect this comment thread to have progressed to an agreeable midpoint up till now. Other than that I haven’t a thing to add, except that whether Faust was involved in the way things turned out by S3 or not, I think the show’s fundamental format could’ve been better configured to satisfy both an overarching plot that provided for uncertain continuations–i.e. past the 65 episode syndication–as well as allowed for the kind of levity most of us love the show for. Things that people dislike about the show, I think, are symptoms of the problem with the way the show works out at the end of each season.
@Beau Skunky
that guy on Twitter
Mike Vogel. Cool fella, I’m definitely looking ofrward to the episode(s?) he’ll be writing in Season 6.
Of course there are often individuals within a company who genuinely care– and some companies (like Hasbro) have a lot of them– but they tend to be creators themselves (or responsible for managing creators, like Vogel was) rather than beancounters or executives, and the corporation as a whole cares about profit above all else more or less by definition, which is the point people are making when they use “corporate” as an insult. It’s generally understood to mean “soulless and shallow and concerned only with profit”.
@TexasUberAlles
You have a point, though I think it’s a li’l unfair to assume all the “corporate” people who work on the show/products are all like that. Some do seem to really do care about the show and fans, (otherwise they’d just of ended the show after Season 3, and make cash off reruns) and even interact with them sometimes. Like that guy on Twitter (can’t remember his name) who’s a higher-up at Hasbro and likes to talk/joke about the series with fans, and such sometimes. He seems to legitimately enjoy the show, and the fanbase.
It was also Hasbro’s idea to make that “Slice of Life” episode which was practically a love-letter to the fans young, and old. So just ‘cause somebody cares about making money doesn’t mean they don’t care about anything else.
@Beau Skunky
Eh, my mistake; like I was yelling saying, it’s a standard term that people mostly use when they want to dismiss something as irrelevant not because it has any less actual impact on the franchise, but because they dislike the content and want to prop themselves up as True Fans™ because they only like the real [whatever]. It mostly gets on my nerves because “corporate” and “fan” are so obviously mutually exclusive; corporations are only fans of profit, and they’d burn down any canon that got in their way if they thought they could make a slightly larger buck off of it. Even fans who are jerks and make jerk fan content at least care.
@Beau Skunky
It’s right there on the tin why “corporate fanfiction” is such a worthless term.
Arguing about canon remains and ever shall be an utterly pointless exercise, because the concept of multiple universes and how to integrate them has been with geek culture since DC Comics started doing it in the 1950s. Unless an enormous amount of creative control and hard planning are involved, it is almost impossible to have all of the iterations of a franchise across multiple media believably share the same universe, because there are just too many different creators involved and most franchises do not have any one person or group making sure that they exactly line up with each other; the only one I can think of off the top of my head that manages to successfully pull it off is Avatar, where the comics are co-written/produced by DiMartino and Konietzko with the specific goal of making them the exact same unbroken line of continuity with The Last Airbender and The Legend Of Korra. Between the show and comics and books, there are over thirty writers, past, present, and upcoming; it’s hard enough work for McCarthy/Larson and Curnow to keep their own corners of the Ponyverse consistent, there’s no practical way they can keep them lined up with the other parts of the ‘Verse given the difference in production schedules.
People keep yelling about whether this or that is or isn’t canon, and it’s all so unnecessary– the answer is patently obvious, and any number of other franchises have already settled it quite conclusively: the show and the IDW comics and the chapter books and the toy packaging blurbs are all separate but related alternate realities, each with their own (more or less) internally consistent continuities. If you like one format but not another, ignore the ones you don’t like. If you like several, like several. It really is just that simple. The only reason everyone keeps arglebargleing about this is because for some people it’s not enough to just dislike [whatever] aspect of the franchise, they have to find some way to de-legitimize everything they disagree with, to make it “not count”, so they can feel like they won some sort of contest by being the ones who like the real [whatever]. It’s childish and ridiculous.
@The Smiling Pony
Those official text book stories are overall just corporate fanfiction basically, (not saying they’re “bad” though) and basically could just be considered alternate canon, or just “canon to a point,” unless contradicted by the show. (Much like the comics.)
@Background Pony #466C
I was more going for how they state that it’s the first time they visited The Crystal Empire after freeing it, which ignores Games Ponies Play.
But yeah, Gilda is shown as being there, when in the show The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone is the first time they see her after Griffon the Brush Off, and Trixie act as she would pre-Magic Duel (or worse, really).
Note that I stated it broke show canon, not The Grand Canon; and that’s why nothing stated there should really be considered unquestionable “truth” as far as the show goes.
I should note that according to Meghan McCarthy herself, the backstory for Cadance given in Crystal Heart Spell is in fact Cadance’s canon backstory, but unless the show decides to bring it up, I’m still going to ignore it. I like to pick and choose which aspects of secondary canon are canon to the show as well.
@The Smiling Pony
Berrow’s first book did not break canon. Gilda and Trixie acted unusual, true, but this does not break canon. How often does the show not do the exact same thing with Spike? Are you also going to say the show breaks its own canon?
Furthermore, canon and continuity are two completely different and separate things. If Hasbro/DHX decides tomorrow that Twilight is a mule, that would break continuity, but NOT canonicity. Canon does not need to be without violations of continuity, those are two different concepts.
@Background Pony #CAB6
Every season finale is written to work as a series finale
That’s not actually how it works; a show is contracted and budgeted for a certain number of episodes, and when those episodes are produced, if whoever is writing the checks decides it’s worth the investment, they have the option of renewing a series for more. Friendship Is Magic was originally contracted for 65 episodes– the traditional industry standard for year-round broadcast syndication– and that was it; that’s the reason Season 3 was only 13 episodes. It had nothing to do with anything else (including the movies), it was a simple matter of the contract running out. Larson specifically wrote Magical Mystery Cure to be the Series Finale because the contract was up; the production staff hoped they were going to get renewed, but they weren’t counting on it.
The most likely scenario at this point is that the new contract is also for 65 episodes, and that there will be a Season 7 with 13 eps just like Season 3 was. Buy More Apples, and we’ll see if Hasbro still likes our money enough to keep ordering more after that.
some of you even go out of your way to tell the rest of us we’re WRONG to think Twilicorn was bad
Hardly anyone ever does that unprompted any more, though; these days it’s almost always in response to someone posting garbage image macros whining about it. There’s a time and a place for voicing dissent with Princess Twilight Alicorn Q. McSparkle and the whole princessy direction the show took afterward, and “out of a clear blue sky, unprompted and un-asked for” isn’t really it. At this point even most of the people who thought it was a bad idea or poorly timed have either gotten over it or resolved to stop complaining about it for no good reason, so when when someone posts a flurry of sanctimonious image macros full of a bitchy attitude, a lot of them join in the chorus of “GET OVER IT ALREADY” as well. If dislike of The Great Alicornification is delivered in a non-confrontational manner in a context where it’s not interrupting some other thread or clearly trying to cause trouble, there are still plenty of people willing to talk about it in a perfectly reasonable manner; it’s just that it tends to get presented like this particular flurry of belligerent uploads, and that automatically turns a lot of people who might otherwise be willing to talk about it reasonably hostile before anyone even starts talking.
Personally, I think they flubbed it pretty hard by not moving some of S3’s stories back to S2 and devoting most of S3 to foreshadowing Princess Twilight a little better, and by not arranging it so they had more room to move if they did get renewed, but I can’t really fault them for wanting to give the series as solid a conclusion as possible under the circumstances if they didn’t get renewed. If they had known in advance how huge this franchise would get and how popular the show would be, I have no doubt that they would have left the Princessification for a later season, and I think that would have made it a better show, but they did the best they could with what they had and I think it’s turned out pretty great since then.
@Minus
I don’t know if you’re addressing me, or others with that wall of text, but actually I have a “neutral” view on Twilicorn,” believe it, or not. (Despite being a defender of it.)
I don’t view those who dislike it as “evil/wrong,” I just think some overreacted to it, or obsess on it. (Like Murrison for example who hates the show now, yet continues to criticize it on Twitter, and hassle the show staff.)
I don’t think “Twilicorn” ruined the show, but I will admit it did come out of nowhere as Smiling said. (Because they didn’t know the show was going to continue, or not at the time. And also, “MERCHANDISING!” :P Hehe)
I would’ve prefered more foreshadowing & development leading up for it prior to Twi’s “ascension.” (Which even I’ll admit hasn’t really changed much, especially in Season 4 where Twi’ didn’t get to do much with her new “status” until near the season finale. Which ironically, was something some fans feared would “change the show to much,” and yet it didn’t as you said.)
So I can actually admit that they did it to soon perhaps, and nowhere did I say the show was “perfect.” I just don’t feel it’s “jumped the shark,” or “ruined forever” yet. I’m probably one of the few fans here that doesn’t even hate a single episode of the series. (Which is more then I can say for other shows I like.) Though, that doesn’t mean I’m some “Hasdrone” who blindly loves everything about it. I’ve criticized some things about the series, so don’t assume I blindly love everything about the show.
(In fact, I didn’t like Discord becoming good at first, but then it grew on me, and love how it was handled.)
@The Smiling Pony
Every season finale is written to work as a series finale, because production on a season is over before they get confirmation of the next season.
@Ferrotter
Your interpretation of “successor” is not necessarily the same as Faust’s intention.
@Beau Skunky
Am I the only one who thought the “wife toss” scene was… kinda dumb?
@Minus
In an early MLP book the writer made Cadance a pegasus that “ascended” after curing a witch of the evils. The book breaks/contradicts show canon in some areas, so generally isn’t considered to be relevant.
And I think the plan was for S3 to be the last, thus why the ascension came out of fucking nowhere, both in the overall story and the episode itself.
Don’t care for the drama, but surprised to see I’d been mislead about her original plans. At the very least, this clears up some misinformation. @Beau Skunky
And there’s something else that I was told differently on. I’d heard way back that Cadance was originally a pegasus.
Feels like the only reason the drama is even still going is because people just don’t want to admit that this “perfect” show got way ahead of itself with making Twilight ascend. It’s like the staff were expecting 4 to be their last season… Which would explain it.
Add to that how some of you even go out of your way to tell the rest of us we’re WRONG to think Twilicorn was bad, and you’re really just asking for the drama there. Don’t give us something to argue against and we won’t argue. There’s a reason the majority of the fandom were so against it. And even in 2015, yes, it’s still bad. Because they proved all of you supporters wrong. They didn’t make it last only 1 episode. They didn’t make it part of her character development. You could remove her wings from all but 2 episodes and you’d never notice a difference. Just feels like proof that even the staff themselves didn’t want it happening so soon. The comics at least TRIED to do something with it, but I can’t talk about those without even worse drama coming up.
At the same time though, nothing we do will make them use Twilicorn better. We just have to wait and hope for the best. The damage is done. Beleive it was a good decision if you need to, but don’t expect others to have deluded themselves too. We can accept it was a bad thing AND still enjoy the show afterall. The drama itself is now only a fan thing being forced to continue usually by those that hate it most… Would be nice to see it end without having to force censorship on the issue.
She specifically said her succession plans didn’t involve Twilight becoming an alicorn OR a princess, let alone both. That’s literally all we know about her plans.
No. She “specifically said” that she “…did not use the words “alicorn” or “princess”.” And while I do think making Twilight an alicorn was never part of her plan, “Princess Twilight Sparkle” (albeit using a different title than Princess) very clearly was. There is simply no getting around, “I said in the doc that I planned for Twilight to be Celestia’s successor…” Queen Celestia’s successor would’ve been Queen Twilight Sparkle. But when Queen Celestia became Princess Celestia, the title of her successor naturally had to become Princess Twilight Sparkle.
@TexasUberAlles
And of course, because of that, some were insisting that Cadance would be a “much better character” if she remained a unicorn, and such… (Boy, some people really hate wings.)
But of course, as I said, then we wouldn’t have “epic horse-wife tossing.” :P
Honestly at this point I think these people are more furious that nobody cares any more than they are about Twilight getting Alicoronated in the first place.
That’s just bullshit. For example, Lauren made it very, very clear that she did not approve of Equestria Girls.
I never said they were mutually exclusive. I said that it shows that “princess grooming” isn’t the only possible explanation.
She specifically said her succession plans didn’t involve Twilight becoming an alicorn OR a princess, let alone both. That’s literally all we know about her plans.
I wasn’t “forced into” anything. I thought Maud’s retconning came across as forced since she first appeared in that picture.
I think people tend to forget corporations & companies are made up of individual people.
that guy on Twitter
Mike Vogel. Cool fella, I’m definitely looking ofrward to the episode(s?) he’ll be writing in Season 6.
Of course there are often individuals within a company who genuinely care– and some companies (like Hasbro) have a lot of them– but they tend to be creators themselves (or responsible for managing creators, like Vogel was) rather than beancounters or executives, and the corporation as a whole cares about profit above all else more or less by definition, which is the point people are making when they use “corporate” as an insult. It’s generally understood to mean “soulless and shallow and concerned only with profit”.
You have a point, though I think it’s a li’l unfair to assume all the “corporate” people who work on the show/products are all like that. Some do seem to really do care about the show and fans, (otherwise they’d just of ended the show after Season 3, and make cash off reruns) and even interact with them sometimes. Like that guy on Twitter (can’t remember his name) who’s a higher-up at Hasbro and likes to talk/joke about the series with fans, and such sometimes. He seems to legitimately enjoy the show, and the fanbase.
It was also Hasbro’s idea to make that “Slice of Life” episode which was practically a love-letter to the fans young, and old. So just ‘cause somebody cares about making money doesn’t mean they don’t care about anything else.
Eh, my mistake; like I was
yellingsaying, it’s a standard term that people mostly use when they want to dismiss something as irrelevant not because it has any less actual impact on the franchise, but because they dislike the content and want to prop themselves up as True Fans™ because they only like the real [whatever]. It mostly gets on my nerves because “corporate” and “fan” are so obviously mutually exclusive; corporations are only fans of profit, and they’d burn down any canon that got in their way if they thought they could make a slightly larger buck off of it. Even fans who are jerks and make jerk fan content at least care.I suppose I could’ve used a better term. I didn’t mean to make it sound like it “doesn’t matter,” or that “it’s bad.”
After all, even “fanfiction” can be fun too.
Okay, sure. “Corporate fanfiction” is still a ridiculous term.
Dude, you got me all wrong, I’m all for alternate-canons, and A.U.s.
Otherwise I wouldn’t like the new TMNT & MLP in the first place.
It’s right there on the tin why “corporate fanfiction” is such a worthless term.
Arguing about canon remains and ever shall be an utterly pointless exercise, because the concept of multiple universes and how to integrate them has been with geek culture since DC Comics started doing it in the 1950s. Unless an enormous amount of creative control and hard planning are involved, it is almost impossible to have all of the iterations of a franchise across multiple media believably share the same universe, because there are just too many different creators involved and most franchises do not have any one person or group making sure that they exactly line up with each other; the only one I can think of off the top of my head that manages to successfully pull it off is Avatar, where the comics are co-written/produced by DiMartino and Konietzko with the specific goal of making them the exact same unbroken line of continuity with The Last Airbender and The Legend Of Korra. Between the show and comics and books, there are over thirty writers, past, present, and upcoming; it’s hard enough work for McCarthy/Larson and Curnow to keep their own corners of the Ponyverse consistent, there’s no practical way they can keep them lined up with the other parts of the ‘Verse given the difference in production schedules.
People keep yelling about whether this or that is or isn’t canon, and it’s all so unnecessary– the answer is patently obvious, and any number of other franchises have already settled it quite conclusively: the show and the IDW comics and the chapter books and the toy packaging blurbs are all separate but related alternate realities, each with their own (more or less) internally consistent continuities. If you like one format but not another, ignore the ones you don’t like. If you like several, like several. It really is just that simple. The only reason everyone keeps arglebargleing about this is because for some people it’s not enough to just dislike [whatever] aspect of the franchise, they have to find some way to de-legitimize everything they disagree with, to make it “not count”, so they can feel like they won some sort of contest by being the ones who like the real [whatever]. It’s childish and ridiculous.
Those official text book stories are overall just corporate fanfiction basically, (not saying they’re “bad” though) and basically could just be considered alternate canon, or just “canon to a point,” unless contradicted by the show. (Much like the comics.)
I was more going for how they state that it’s the first time they visited The Crystal Empire after freeing it, which ignores Games Ponies Play.
But yeah, Gilda is shown as being there, when in the show The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone is the first time they see her after Griffon the Brush Off, and Trixie act as she would pre-Magic Duel (or worse, really).
Note that I stated it broke show canon, not The Grand Canon; and that’s why nothing stated there should really be considered unquestionable “truth” as far as the show goes.
I should note that according to Meghan McCarthy herself, the backstory for Cadance given in Crystal Heart Spell is in fact Cadance’s canon backstory, but unless the show decides to bring it up, I’m still going to ignore it. I like to pick and choose which aspects of secondary canon are canon to the show as well.
Berrow’s first book did not break canon. Gilda and Trixie acted unusual, true, but this does not break canon. How often does the show not do the exact same thing with Spike? Are you also going to say the show breaks its own canon?
Furthermore, canon and continuity are two completely different and separate things. If Hasbro/DHX decides tomorrow that Twilight is a mule, that would break continuity, but NOT canonicity. Canon does not need to be without violations of continuity, those are two different concepts.
Every season finale is written to work as a series finale
That’s not actually how it works; a show is contracted and budgeted for a certain number of episodes, and when those episodes are produced, if whoever is writing the checks decides it’s worth the investment, they have the option of renewing a series for more. Friendship Is Magic was originally contracted for 65 episodes– the traditional industry standard for year-round broadcast syndication– and that was it; that’s the reason Season 3 was only 13 episodes. It had nothing to do with anything else (including the movies), it was a simple matter of the contract running out. Larson specifically wrote Magical Mystery Cure to be the Series Finale because the contract was up; the production staff hoped they were going to get renewed, but they weren’t counting on it.
The most likely scenario at this point is that the new contract is also for 65 episodes, and that there will be a Season 7 with 13 eps just like Season 3 was. Buy More Apples, and we’ll see if Hasbro still likes our money enough to keep ordering more after that.
@Minus
Cadance was originally a pegasus
As TSP pointed out, in the chapter book Twilight Sparkle And The Crystal Heart Spell Cadance says that she was born a Pegasus, but the books are pretty obviously a separate continuity from the show; in Meghan McCarthy’s original script for the episode, she was a Unicorn, and Chrysalis was “QUEEN CHRYSALIS, a GANGLY BLACK PEGACORN with a gnarled black horn She was almost certainly changed to an Alicorn because toys.
some of you even go out of your way to tell the rest of us we’re WRONG to think Twilicorn was bad
Hardly anyone ever does that unprompted any more, though; these days it’s almost always in response to someone posting garbage image macros whining about it. There’s a time and a place for voicing dissent with Princess Twilight Alicorn Q. McSparkle and the whole princessy direction the show took afterward, and “out of a clear blue sky, unprompted and un-asked for” isn’t really it. At this point even most of the people who thought it was a bad idea or poorly timed have either gotten over it or resolved to stop complaining about it for no good reason, so when when someone posts a flurry of sanctimonious image macros full of a bitchy attitude, a lot of them join in the chorus of “GET OVER IT ALREADY” as well. If dislike of The Great Alicornification is delivered in a non-confrontational manner in a context where it’s not interrupting some other thread or clearly trying to cause trouble, there are still plenty of people willing to talk about it in a perfectly reasonable manner; it’s just that it tends to get presented like this particular flurry of belligerent uploads, and that automatically turns a lot of people who might otherwise be willing to talk about it reasonably hostile before anyone even starts talking.
Personally, I think they flubbed it pretty hard by not moving some of S3’s stories back to S2 and devoting most of S3 to foreshadowing Princess Twilight a little better, and by not arranging it so they had more room to move if they did get renewed, but I can’t really fault them for wanting to give the series as solid a conclusion as possible under the circumstances if they didn’t get renewed. If they had known in advance how huge this franchise would get and how popular the show would be, I have no doubt that they would have left the Princessification for a later season, and I think that would have made it a better show, but they did the best they could with what they had and I think it’s turned out pretty great since then.
I’m sure you aren’t. :P
@Minus
I don’t know if you’re addressing me, or others with that wall of text, but actually I have a “neutral” view on Twilicorn,” believe it, or not. (Despite being a defender of it.)
I don’t view those who dislike it as “evil/wrong,” I just think some overreacted to it, or obsess on it. (Like Murrison for example who hates the show now, yet continues to criticize it on Twitter, and hassle the show staff.)
I don’t think “Twilicorn” ruined the show, but I will admit it did come out of nowhere as Smiling said. (Because they didn’t know the show was going to continue, or not at the time. And also, “MERCHANDISING!” :P Hehe)
I would’ve prefered more foreshadowing & development leading up for it prior to Twi’s “ascension.” (Which even I’ll admit hasn’t really changed much, especially in Season 4 where Twi’ didn’t get to do much with her new “status” until near the season finale. Which ironically, was something some fans feared would “change the show to much,” and yet it didn’t as you said.)
So I can actually admit that they did it to soon perhaps, and nowhere did I say the show was “perfect.” I just don’t feel it’s “jumped the shark,” or “ruined forever” yet. I’m probably one of the few fans here that doesn’t even hate a single episode of the series. (Which is more then I can say for other shows I like.) Though, that doesn’t mean I’m some “Hasdrone” who blindly loves everything about it. I’ve criticized some things about the series, so don’t assume I blindly love everything about the show.
(In fact, I didn’t like Discord becoming good at first, but then it grew on me, and love how it was handled.)
Every season finale is written to work as a series finale, because production on a season is over before they get confirmation of the next season.
@Ferrotter
Your interpretation of “successor” is not necessarily the same as Faust’s intention.
@Beau Skunky
Am I the only one who thought the “wife toss” scene was… kinda dumb?
In an early MLP book the writer made Cadance a pegasus that “ascended” after curing a witch of the evils. The book breaks/contradicts show canon in some areas, so generally isn’t considered to be relevant.
And I think the plan was for S3 to be the last, thus why the ascension came out of fucking nowhere, both in the overall story and the episode itself.
@Beau Skunky
And there’s something else that I was told differently on. I’d heard way back that Cadance was originally a pegasus.
Feels like the only reason the drama is even still going is because people just don’t want to admit that this “perfect” show got way ahead of itself with making Twilight ascend. It’s like the staff were expecting 4 to be their last season… Which would explain it.
Add to that how some of you even go out of your way to tell the rest of us we’re WRONG to think Twilicorn was bad, and you’re really just asking for the drama there. Don’t give us something to argue against and we won’t argue. There’s a reason the majority of the fandom were so against it. And even in 2015, yes, it’s still bad. Because they proved all of you supporters wrong. They didn’t make it last only 1 episode. They didn’t make it part of her character development. You could remove her wings from all but 2 episodes and you’d never notice a difference. Just feels like proof that even the staff themselves didn’t want it happening so soon. The comics at least TRIED to do something with it, but I can’t talk about those without even worse drama coming up.
At the same time though, nothing we do will make them use Twilicorn better. We just have to wait and hope for the best. The damage is done. Beleive it was a good decision if you need to, but don’t expect others to have deluded themselves too. We can accept it was a bad thing AND still enjoy the show afterall. The drama itself is now only a fan thing being forced to continue usually by those that hate it most… Would be nice to see it end without having to force censorship on the issue.
No. She “specifically said” that she “…did not use the words “alicorn” or “princess”.” And while I do think making Twilight an alicorn was never part of her plan, “Princess Twilight Sparkle” (albeit using a different title than Princess) very clearly was. There is simply no getting around, “I said in the doc that I planned for Twilight to be Celestia’s successor…” Queen Celestia’s successor would’ve been Queen Twilight Sparkle. But when Queen Celestia became Princess Celestia, the title of her successor naturally had to become Princess Twilight Sparkle.
And of course, because of that, some were insisting that Cadance would be a “much better character” if she remained a unicorn, and such… (Boy, some people really hate wings.)
But of course, as I said, then we wouldn’t have “epic horse-wife tossing.” :P
Honestly at this point I think these people are more furious that nobody cares any more than they are about Twilight getting Alicoronated in the first place.
@Psyga315
Cadance confirmed not canon as per WoF
Faust was still around when A Canterlot Wedding was being produced; Cadance was originally intended to be a Unicorn.
Actually, she was going to be a unicorn originally according to Faust.
But if she stayed a unicorn then we wouldn’t have the “epic waifu tossing/fastball special” from Shining Armor.
Cadance confirmed not canon as per WoF.
So freaking much this.