Downvotes / Hiding Survey

Background Pony #C45A
@warc9  
Personally, I don’t dislike Flash Sentry on principle, I wouldn’t downvote a Flashlight picture just for the ship, and I don’t dislike all of dm29’s art, but I’ve considered voting down several of his Flashlight pictures because I dislike that he produces so many which are more or less identical in style and subject without improving his art or trying much beyond putting the characters into generic romance situations. I haven’t done this, because I don’t cast downvotes lightly, but the thought has crossed my mind. The pictures bother me because of a combination of content and presentation.
 
If I did downvote some of the ones I found especially annoying, would that be a rule 4 violation, or would the fact that I’m doing it because of factors particular to these images make it okay? There are Flashlight and dm29 pictures I’d be willing to upvote, so it’s not bandwagoning. The same goes for Curtsibling. He’s more than capable as an artist, but I find the vast majority of what he chooses to draw and how he chooses to draw it so repellent that he’s the only artist on the entire site whose tag I’ve spoilered. Even still, there are pictures of his that I enjoy.
 
For a more extreme example, take >>217840. It’s not very poorly drawn. A little rough-edged, maybe, but nothing I’d say reflects a lack of effort on the part of the artist. It’s definitely MLP-related, because it contains one of the show’s characters, so there’s no reason to object on that basis. If I were to put aside content and decide what to think of it by the artist’s skill alone, I’d either upvote or ignore it.  
If the site’s administration has decided that downvotes cast for any reason besides pure artistic quality are invalid, then that image’s score might as well be in the positives and all those who downvoted it should be given a warning for ignoring rule 4.
 
It might not be wrong to view downvoting an entire tag as misuse of the system, but I suspect very few people actually downvote an entire tag, and what’s really happening is that some images contain a combination of subject and style that’s off-putting enough to earn a lot of downvotes when neither factor alone would be enough. And that’s okay, because the reverse also applies. The Weaver and TJpones mostly produce very artistically simple images. It’s the content of those images which makes them such popular artists. >>542405, containing nothing but a few words arranged to look like a conversation, has a score of over 200. Is that upvote abuse?
 
The entire point of art is that emotion is a factor in its reception. At the end of the day, both upvotes and downvotes are always going to take what the image portrays into consideration, because that’s why it exists- to portray something. I find it frustrating to see a site looking for ways to enforce pure objectivity on something that’s inherently subjective.
Zeb
Praise the Sun! - Derpi Supporter
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.
Economist -
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Birthday Cake - Celebrated MLP's 7th birthday

Tag-Bot
@Background Pony #65F3  
Naw. We understand that there’s a lot of personal feelings or gut reactions that can be the reason for downvoting something.
 
The issues only come when it’s either using multiple accounts, or purposefully targeting an entire subject they know they dislike. Or even searching for things they have filtered for the sole purpose of downvoting them.
 
Downvoting every, or a majority, of images under a tag isn’t very rare. It’s just hard to spot.
 
And related to the upvote abuse: Yes, we do consider upvotes also abusable. Though in different ways.  
Using multiple accounts to upvote the same image is an offence we punish when it’s caught.
 
Though we do not punish someone for upvoting an entire tag.
 
The reason for that difference is: We have filters that allow people to hide content they know they do not wish to see. If someone knows they hate a subject, them targeting it isn’t fair for the people who do enjoy that content or are indifferent to it.
 
@shadic1988  
If you mean blacklisting as in hiding tags: That doesn’t work for every instance. Sometimes an image may not have any tags or combination of tags that you want to hide, but that specific image is just something that you no longer wish to see when doing searches. It could be the way the characters are drawn in that image, their facial expressions, just some non-taggable thing that makes that 1 image too much to stand for that person.
 
Currently, you can add the individual image’s ID to your complex filters, though that takes more work. The hide button would be similar, just a more streamlined process. And wouldn’t affect your current filters the same way as adding the ID’s to your filter would.
warc9
Pixel Perfection - I still call her Lightning Bolt
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
Roseluck - Had their OC in the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Elements of Harmony - Had an OC in the 2022 Community Collab
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab

Ultimate Fan of Scoots
@warc9
Personally, I don’t dislike Flash Sentry on principle, I wouldn’t downvote a Flashlight picture just for the ship, and I don’t dislike all of dm29’s art, but I’ve considered voting down several of his Flashlight pictures because I dislike that he produces so many which are more or less identical in style and subject without improving his art or trying much beyond putting the characters into generic romance situations. I haven’t done this, because I don’t cast downvotes lightly, but the thought has crossed my mind. The pictures bother me because of a combination of content and presentation.
If I did downvote some of the ones I found especially annoying, would that be a rule 4 violation, or would the fact that I’m doing it because of factors particular to these images make it okay? There are Flashlight and dm29 pictures I’d be willing to upvote, so it’s not bandwagoning. The same goes for Curtsibling. He’s more than capable as an artist, but I find the vast majority of what he chooses to draw and how he chooses to draw it so repellent that he’s the only artist on the entire site whose tag I’ve spoilered. Even still, there are pictures of his that I enjoy.
 
Ok.
 
But the thing is some people do just down vote on content alone when they could just block a tag.
 
It might not be wrong to view downvoting an entire tag as misuse of the system, but I suspect very few people actually downvote an entire tag, and what’s really happening is that some images contain a combination of subject and style that’s off-putting enough to earn a lot of downvotes when neither factor alone would be enough. And that’s okay, because the reverse also applies. The Weaver and TJpones mostly produce very artistically simple images. It’s the content of those images which makes them such popular artists. >>542405, containing nothing but a few words arranged to look like a conversation, has a score of over 200. Is that upvote abuse?
.
 
No, some people like text only images, some people don’t.
 
If you don’t you can just block the whole tag.
Derpy Whooves
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
Artist -
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Artistic Detective - For awesome dedication to sleuthing out and maintaining artist tags and links
Economist -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Looking For My Doctor
@Zeb  
Maybe an example will help clarify the “Hard to spot” point.
 
We had a recent image that appeared to be getting brigaded, so I went through all the downvoters, one by one, and looked for people whose filters would have hidden the image. This is not an entirely straight forward process, because we only really look at tags that were on the image when it was uploaded - for example, if a tag were added later, it might have been added by the very person who downvoted the image because of the bad tagging.
 
That resulted in a list of about a dozen suspect profiles that should not have seen the image, but still downvoted it.
 
Was this because they were a part of a coordinated action against the theme of the image? Or because these are people who use scripts to detect uploads so they can downvote them before the thumbnail is even rendered? Or is it just some folks who weren’t using that filter at the time and saw the image and downvoted it, or even people who downvoted the image and then added it to their filters?
 
That’s not even the start of possibilities - there’s lots of reasons this might happen.
 
I submitted that list of possible abuses to an administrator, and after going through all of them we found one person who we already knew was abusing downvotes (in this case because they don’t like their “waifu” being shown with other characters in any kind of romantic setting, because then they might not be able to marry them). All of the other downvoters had no pattern of downvoting similar themes or brigading.
 
So - on this image, at least, it appears that the downvotes happened during the period between when the image was uploaded and the appropriate tags were added.
 
All of that research and review took about 2 hours. For 1 image. To find 1 abuser. Who we already knew about.
 
I think the point I’m trying to make is that we know that downvoting is abused, but detecting when that is happening takes longer than just about anything else I do for the site, and can involve hours of research and documenting before it’s clear what is happening.
 
Finding images where downvote abuse is suspected is easy. Proving that is what is happening is massively time consuming, and detracts from other things we could be doing, like aliasing or helping to verify new artists, or … literally anything else that actually makes the site more pleasant to browse.
 
@warc9  
But the thing is some people do just down vote on content alone when they could just block a tag
 
Yes, that is totally happening.
Meanlucario
Silly Pony - Celebrated the 13th anniversary of MLP:FIM, and 40 years of MLP!
Shimmering Smile - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of Equestria Girls!
Solar Guardian - Refused to surrender in the face of the Lunar rebellion and showed utmost loyalty to the Solar Empire (April Fools 2023).
Roseluck - Had their OC in the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
King Sombra - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of The Crystal Empire!
A Lovely Nightmare Night - Celebrated the 12th anniversary of MLP:FIM!
Princess of Love - Extra special version for those who participated in the Canterlot Wedding 10th anniversary event by contributing art.
Elements of Harmony - Had an OC in the 2022 Community Collab
Non-Fungible Trixie -
Kinship Through Differences - Celebrated the 11th anniversary of MLP:FIM!

Time to get spooky
Downvotes aren’t constructive criticism. I have more than a few images in the negatives, and no comments on why the person downvoted or how to improve. If those that downvoted me actually gave me advice and criticism, than I wouldn’t have a problem with them. There’s a difference between criticism and just being negative.
shutter

Okay now that I’ve wracked my brain about this idea enough, I think I’d like to expand on my original idea on self moderation here: @shutter
 
You can eliminate the moderated list of tags with something that can programmatically figure out how wide the opinion spectrum goes for one tag by calculating the following:
 
The sum of all downvotes under one tag  
Divided by  
The sum of all upvotes + downvotes under one tag
 
Some ships, for example, Twi and Flash, get super polarized opinions, which get lots of upvotes and lots of downvotes. Some other stuff does not get such a wide spectrum.
 
So when a user gives a downvote streak to twiflash, regardless of whether they realize it, a notification telling them to filter twiflash comes up after only a short streak of downvotes, because that ship is met with lots of love and lots of objections.
 
But when a user gives a downvote streak to some controversial OC like Nyx for example, regardless of whether they realize it or not, that intervention will come up after a longer streak of down votes, because those tags are only met with a shorter range of upvotes and downvotes.
 
Or when some tag that gets on average 50 upvotes and 50 downvotes, maybe stuff like Sonic crossovers, that threshold will be met super early.
 
Maybe you could go even a step further and make the threshold even shorter when the user is downvoting stuff under the same tag from the search page.
 
Although if you were to do this, you will need shortcuts to the filters. These already exist but would require more work, because you’d have to be able to have the filter updated without leaving the page since the user wants it gone fast.
 
Maybe you can go even a step further and use this setup to make a suspicious behavior list - find potential abusers that ignore the warnings and game the system anyways.
 
My phone crashed on me while I was in the middle of writing this. My original write-up was much better.
Liggliluff
Best Artist - Providing quality, Derpibooru-exclusive artwork
Helpful Owl - Drew someone's OC for the 2018 Community Collab
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

“add ‘hide’ as a third option to images”  
You mean forth option?  
favourite, upvote, downvote, hide
 
(If it’s been mentioned, I don’t know. Can I easily search 40+ pages of a topic?)
Liggliluff
Best Artist - Providing quality, Derpibooru-exclusive artwork
Helpful Owl - Drew someone's OC for the 2018 Community Collab
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
An Artist Who Rocks - 100+ images under their artist tag
Artist -

My suggestion is tying together downvote and hide. Have an opt-in/out feature in settings > display that will hide all images you’ve downvoted (unless you search for “my:downvotes” or use the everything-filter … so you can retrieve something you’ve downvoted).
 
I’m thinking it could reduce the load on the servers, and that I don’t see much of a difference between downvoted and hiding. – Would you downvote something you later want to find? (Unless it’s for trolling reasons.) And would you hide something that isn’t bad?
 
Of course basic tag filtering remains, so you can still hide tags you don’t want to see, which is much easier than trying to downvoted all images under a certain tag.
 
—————
 
This would be a little more advanced, but:  
If a user has 100% downvoted a tag (with at least n amount of times), and that tag is at least on n amount of images with no other 100% downvoted tag (which proves that it’s the tag that’s the issue)¹, then that user could be suggested to hide that tag so all images, and future images, with it will automatically be hidden.
 
If the user is running a default filter, a copy of it can be made.
 
¹ example is if someone always downvoting twilight sparkle (alicorn) that would mean twilight sparkle is also 100% downvoted. But if the user upvotes a single non-alicorn-Twilight, that shows that the user only have issue with the alicorn-Twilight.
Background Pony #C45A
@Zeb  
If a person actually downvotes an entire tag- assuming it’s not a very seldom-used tag or one like “op is a duck” that’s meant to be attached to images with serious problems- then sure, call it downvote abuse. I still think it’s a double standard to do that for downvotes and not upvotes, but at least we know they’re actually going out of their way to find something they disapprove of in this case, because no one randomly happens across that many images with that specific a theme. And of course we agree on the use of multiple accounts. No one should be able to vote twice.
 
I’m afraid I still don’t fully understand why those who seek out content just to upvote it are more permissible than those who do the same with the intention of downvoting it. Either way, the result is just a number that lists opinions. It doesn’t do any more harm than the person reading it allows it to.
 
@warc9  
I’m not opposed to upvotes on text-only pictures at all. Or on any pictures, for that matter. I’d rather leave the use of both buttons completely unrestricted so long as no one can push them multiple times. It’s just a bit difficult to convince people to allow all opinions period to be expressed, so I’m taking the approach of asking for greater consistency instead as a compromise.
TexasUberAlles
Duck - If report count was a score, he'd have the biggest score
Pixel Perfection - I still call her Lightning Bolt
Silly Pony - Celebrated the 13th anniversary of MLP:FIM, and 40 years of MLP!
Shimmering Smile - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of Equestria Girls!
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
Roseluck - Had their OC in the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Flower Trio - Helped others get their OC into the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
King Sombra - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of The Crystal Empire!
A Lovely Nightmare Night - Celebrated the 12th anniversary of MLP:FIM!
Princess of Love - Extra special version for those who participated in the Canterlot Wedding 10th anniversary event by contributing art.

@Background Pony #65F3  
it’s a double standard to do that for downvotes and not upvotes
 
Sure it’s a double standard. So is “It’s a capital crime to shoot a random person for no reason but legally justified self defense to shoot someone who is actively trying to murder you” a double standard. The bottom line here is that Derpibooru attempts to encourage positive interaction and discourage negative interaction, so institutionally, the site places a higher value on non-specific upvotes than on non-specific downvotes.
 
I still don’t fully understand why those who seek out content just to upvote it are more permissible than those who do the same with the intention of downvoting it  
So, are you here from /mlp/ or /pone/?
 
If you honestly do not understand why “I like that” is inherently and objectively superior to “I hate that”, then no one here can help you; not all opinions are equally valid or useful to the community, it really is as simple as that. If trashtalking things without consequence or pushback is what you’re after, there are other sites for that.
NIelson

Downvote Abuse? That’s stupid. What good does having a voting system with just one option? Grow a spine and stop crying that your pictures are not liked. Don’t destroy an entire function because of that. Hugboxes and positive echo chambers are bad influences.
WingbeatPony
Daring Do Dakimakura - Attended a Derpibooru panel at a MLP convention
Elements of Harmony - Had an OC in the 2022 Community Collab
Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Birthday Cake - Celebrated MLP's 7th birthday

Tag horse
@Liggliluff  
I think the simplest reason for wanting to hide without downvoting is this: Hiding is for your personal benefit, like filters are, and that shouldn’t have any bearing on anyone else’s opinion. No one else needs to know or care that my personal filter hides tag X, there’s nothing wrong with tag X, I just prefer not to see it until I switch to the everything filter. The same goes for individual images - maybe you don’t think there’s anything worth downvoting on a picture, it just slipped through the cracks in your filter or something.
 
Having said that, though, it does make a lot of sense for a downvote to automatically hide a picture, the same way faving a picture automatically upvotes it.
Interested in advertising on Derpibooru? Click here for information!
Ministry of Image - Fanfiction Printing

Help fund the $15 daily operational cost of Derpibooru - support us financially!

This topic has been locked to new posts from non-moderators.

Locked

Lock reason: bye