Continuation of the Topic of What Archival Means.

@Raptorshy  

 
“If you redefine the word archive first, we’re an archive”

@Northern  
So you admit you don’t even know how things have been handled up until now? Seeing as your last regular activity before this began was 5 years ago (and was also focused on drama), that should have been pretty obvious. I don’t believe you care about the community because you’ve never been a part of this community, you’re just here to stir up drama and feel good about fighting against authority, even when you don’t even know what you’re fighting against or what the site even did up until now. Even so your opinion is just as valid as everyone else’s on this site on all sides of the argument and that’s why I’m here talking to you here now.
 
That being said, archive is still a vague word and just because the site has never ascribed your exact definition doesn’t mean they have an ethical obligation to host every single badly edited screencap or post advocating for violence that wasn’t caught or even noticed when it was posted. In fact, if they only hosted safe content with no hoofholding, it’s still by definition an archive, so I don’t think that distancing themselves from the word would accomplish anything.
 
@Background Pony #BFD9  
My position hasn’t changed since all this began, that is reverting things to where they were 3 months ago but enforcing things more consistently. Blatant hate speech and low quality/low effort trolling has always been against the rules and I had no intention of relaxing the rules more than they were before. I’d said this even in the original announcement.
 
@Background Pony #F73A  

 
Oh cool, I didn’t even have to reword it.

@Raptorshy  
+1
 
@Background Pony #F73A  
We also host porn and OCs that other sites forbid, so each ‘whatever each site calls itself, or each individual chooses to call them’ has its own goals. Some of the most ‘free’ places on the internet have some of the oddest ‘except for this’ rules.

@Raptorshy  
It’s very likely North here just wants to defend an important fandom site from the harsher rule 0 implementation, a lot of people interested here are also “silently active”, I have been criticized by Derpy Whooves for being interested in this despite my lack of activity besides a few uploads, but I have been on this site far, far more than I should, in fact if I upvoted and/or favorited things consistantly, I’d probably have thousands of them on my profile, if not somewhere around 10,000+, and I have never uploaded the few hundred pictures I’ve drawn(I think they’re awful so I never wanted to post them)  
Judging people by their derpi activity alone is not a good standard and I really hope this kind of thing stops, our concerns should not be invalidated because we dont “look” like we’re active

@Background Pony #1C52  

@Raptorshy  
Yes, and thanks for that, really  
You did seem judge him a little harshly for only being active during drama though  
Drama tends to bring silent users into the fray, seemingly out of nowhere, to voice their concerns, and the vast majority of users on a website are silent users, so this is pretty average behavior  
I think thats all I will say on this topic though as it’s a little off topic to the thread, but I felt it needed to be said

@Background Pony #1C52  
No it is a fair criticism. It can be hard to hold your tongue sometimes.

@Raptorshy  

 
More consistent rules does not mean make them more strict, you can make them more consistent without doing that.

@Raptorshy  

 
It would be nice if those were the only things being deleted.  
But it ain’t the case, and therein lies the problem.

@Raptorshy  
My apologies on the slow response. I was poisoned recently by a bunch of bleach powder falling on my head and was unable to quickly respond, however I will respond in full right now.
 

I admit, I wasn’t aware of the way the rules were enforced before this, but that is a failing of the writing of the rules, rather than a failing of myself. I have been present, but the rules have never been clear enough to determine exactly what would be deleted. This issue has only further muddied the waters on that one.

You don’t know a thing about me. I’ve been in this community longer than you have, I assure you, and I’ve never stopped or left. I stopped interacting with the community, stopped talking to people, but I’ve never stopped looking at pony art or caring about everypony in this community, from the very beginning. The edit history here may say early 2011, but I’ve been around since December 27th, 2010. I know what I’m talking about. The pony fandom is about a whole lot more than you or I. I’m not here to fight against authority, I’m here to fight against censorship, the same as I did in 2010 when I was arguing for the rights of the early fandom to even exist without being silenced off of the internet.

You wouldn’t have brought up my past if you weren’t using it to say something about me, so thanks, but no thanks. I don’t believe that you believe this, though if you would be willing to offer another explanation for bringing up my completely irrelevant history I’m game to hear it. Thank you, by the way, for being civil, despite.
 
I appreciate that, I really do.

@Northern  
Thing is Northern, you do bring up good topics for discussion, stuff that needs to be addressed, but then you often let your “passion” get the better of you and transform what could be simple arguments into vague, grandiose and even out-of-topic affirmations. Like in this thread, which could have been a nice way to bring staff members in for a discussion on how they see the site —community first or gallery first— you turned it into some sort of pledge of allegiance to archival “ethics”. That scares people away, spoils discussions.
 
Sometimes we need a table to seat around at, not soapboxes.

@ArmadilloEater  
Sometimes, we need to be firm about points. When all requests and arguments are ignored, being firm on the very basic minimums is a must. Yes, my words are somewhat flowery at times, but my arguments stand on their own merit. I don’t think tone policing is at all conductive to good discussion. If you have a problem with the ethics I’ve outlined of being an archive, I’d be interested in hearing a counterargument, of course, but… I fail to see how the things I’ve outlined are anything but just what running a community archive ethically is.

@Northern  
That’s the thing though, how can I propose a counterargument when I don’t subscribe to the very premise of your posts, that we should be bound by what you have defined as an archive “ethical obligations”? I can tell you that I’d like Derpibooru to be more focused on the gallery side of things, meaning that we should strive to protect anything with artistic value first and foremost, even if it might ruffles some feathers. It doesn’t need to be much more complicated than this.

@ArmadilloEater  
The only difference between what you said and what I said is mine are hard and fast rules and yours are guidelines. The reason I phrase mine in terms of rules is because those are what are necessary to fit a definition, the definition in this case being that of an archive – specifically these are the actions one must take to run an archive without being any of the following;
 
A) Exclusionary (which would prevent it from being an archive for the whole of the community)  
B) Intentionally incomplete (which would prevent it from being an archive for the whole of the community)  
or C) Misleading internally or externally (which is universally unethical because it’s lying to the community)
 
If you have a problem with any of those things being prevented, then I don’t know what to tell you…

@Northern  
I think it’s pretty obvious I’m specifically talking about derpibooru.
 
And yeah, I always try to be civil when possible. I’ve kind of gone against that a bit mostly because I was a bit annoyed and I apologize for that.
 
Edit: Oh yeah. Mid season 1 here, so you beat me by a couple months probably. I used to be extremely active on the reddit pony subs mostly but that account is gone now.
 
@Background Pony #87E6  
Some were being enforced strictly, others weren’t being enforced at all.

@Raptorshy  
It might be good to look at why they weren’t enforced or if they even should be, if the rules that weren’t enforced back then are coming into effect now I would understand why people hate them, with removing meme images as an example.

@Background Pony #87E6  
They weren’t enforced because people generally didn’t care about them before, and with ~800 posts coming in per day what wasn’t deleted likely just went unnoticed.
 
However public perception on any kind of racist and related content has changed suddenly and drastically, and derpi got a ton of pushback for hosting a lot of this content and a ton of people were leaving because of it. While things could have been handled differently at the time related to that, what’s done is done and simply putting that back in the box isn’t a feasible option.

@Raptorshy  

 
Pretty sure this was because derpi was seen as “allying” with blm, with the whole forced filters and twitter post, while still having nazi art.

@Raptorshy  

Derpibooru doesn’t purport to be for the Derpibooru community. Derpibooru purports to be for the pony community and thus has the higher standard to hold itself to of representing the broader pony community in a manner that is, as I said above to someone else, Not exclusionary, not intentionally incomplete (where it can help it) and not misleading.

Thank you. Apology absolutely and uncritically accepted. I appreciate the candor as well. I’m not one to take insults to heart easily these days. I wish I’d met you back then. I have a feeling we’d probably be pretty good friends and maybe, just maybe, you’d see where I’m coming from a bit better if you came from the foundation of the community where I did too.

Regrettably, the response taken by the staff and the actions that you are claming cannot be undone have the unfortunate side effect of rendering all possible definitions of an archive (at least one run with fairness for the whole of the pony community) out of the reach of the site in its current form;
 
It is forcibly exclusionary to types of parody and humor the site staff do not approve of as has been thoroughly documented in the Rule#0 thread.
 
It is intentionally being reworked to create an environment where those who are not ideologically compatible with one end of the spectrum that makes up the group are forcibly excluded to protect the rights of another group to not be offended. I am aware that that other group would have left if these changes weren’t made, however that would have been their choice, whereas now the archive itself discriminates, not the userbase.
 
Its database is being purged of cultural history that does not fit this new standard, even classic fandom history for the sake of sanitizing it for the group that is now being catered to.
 
These are absolutely unacceptable under the terms of running any form of archive and always have been. If the site wishes to continue labeling itself as such, it would be misleading if any of these practices are kept. That is why I phrase this in terms of ethics: because the actions that are being taken actually break the very foundational principles of what running an archive that is fair, balanced or in any way ‘for the pony community’ as a whole require. Misleading people inside and outside of the site I’m sure we can both agree is wrong, so continuing to use the label of archive when every single tenet of an archive (by the definition the staff gave me of archive, not even a pure archive) is wrong. It’s simple logic, ultimately.
 
This is even without considering the fact that the very basic principle of an archive is not to be ruled by public opinion and rather, to contain the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth of what existed in the group it’s trying to archive. In the case of a snapshot, as the definition was given to me, that means “The representative truth (without anything factually incorrect), the representative whole truth (without intentionally leaving things out) and nothing but the representative truth (no misrepresentations of the group or subgroups within)”. If even one of these conditions are failed to be met, the ‘archive’ doesn’t fit the definition of what an archive is and is thus being misleading to call itself an archive.

@Northern  
Ever since 2012 we have referred to ourselves as a ‘booru’ - ‘A form of imageboard where images are categorized with tags.’
 

 
That is what we have always called ourselves. It’s even in the name. And we’ve agreed to be more careful about using the word ‘archive’ in any of our statements about ourselves, because - as you have demonstrated - it gives some people the wrong idea.
 
Honestly, I think it would be unethical if we all of a sudden decided that we were going to become the kind of archive that you are arguing that we should become and started refusing to enforce our other rules or changed our approach to how we do or don’t host images because someone wanted us to be something we’ve never claimed to be.

@Derpy Whooves  
Wrong. This will keep coming back to haunt you, but the site advertised itself even at the start of this drama as a PONY COMMUNITY ARCHIVE. This comes with certain obligations the site is failing to meet in order to be honest. The fact that the site consistently advertised itself as an archive in all the time preceding this incident, to include the beginning of this incident, where it is stated that the site’s primary purpose is art archival is NOT just an incidental use of the word. You have been using this label for as long as the site exists and the userbase has an understandable and easily acceptable reason to not trust you continuing to use it now, especially since the majority of the userbase apparently believed that’s what this site was, given the polling done on the matters of deletions and thus was mislead by the staff’s use of the word thus far. In the other thread, you were arguing that the term should continue to apply here. You specifically stated that this is a ‘archive that is attempting to create a representative snapshot of the community’. This is why this is a problem. You have made it a problem.

@Northern  
The site has not ‘consistently’ advertised itself as an archive. It has never advertised itself as being the kind of archive that you claim that it has. And we have responded to your claims about that tweet several times.
 
You stopped using the site for years after Twilight got her wings, so I don’t know how you can claim to have any awareness of how we have been self-describing ourselves as a site, or why you are so bitterly attached to your definition of the word ‘archive’ now.
 
But I am curious - what is your framework here?
 
Are you supposing that you can convince us that we’ve mistakenly created a kind of archive that we didn’t mean to create and by showing us other definitions of the word we’ll suddenly change our rules and practices?
 
Or are you hoping to present an argument so stunning and masterful that we suddenly throw out the rules and practices we’ve had since 2012?
 
It seems everything you are doing is hinging on the definition of the word ‘archive’ - don’t you see that isn’t working?

@Derpy Whooves  
The fact that my arguments are not working is not a testament to the failure of the argumentation, as you’ve failed to successfully refute a single case of mine with any evidence at all. The fact that my arguments are not working is only proof positive that the site staff desire the means with which to act unethically and are ignoring the points they cannot successfully counter in order to achieve that goal.
 
I am not proposing the site throw out the rules and practices it’s had since 2012, merely to adhere to the basic fundamental ideals of being an archive or to ditch using the label, ever, because it’s absolutely not applicable. It would still be unethical to have lured in so many with its use, but at least you can prevent future harm by doing so and making it clear to the rest of the community that you are doing so intentionally. The only possible argument against this sentiment is that the staff desires the ability to mislead the broader pony community and are willing to bend over backwards to twist the definition to suit their needs.
 
I am supposing that the staff will listen to the words of reason and understand that the things that they are doing are completely out of line with any semblance of reasonable or righteous action, that is the very premise by which staff interaction is supposed to take place, that if the staff hear a reasonable assertion they will take it seriously. All that has happened thus far is that the staff has ignored, sidestepped or attempted to mislabel the arguments I’ve actually made in order to not address the lack of consistency in moderation and to continue to hold on to their ability to do whatever they want regardless of whether or not they’re acting in a reasonable or even honest manner.
 
My only framework here is that of logical discussion between two grown adults about the topics in question. I haven’t asked for special treatment, I’ve been deferential to staff requests and I’ve been kind enough to update questions I’ve asked with staff’s answers when provided.
 
If you cannot argue against the points I’ve made, perhaps it is time to consider actually paying attention to what is being said, rather than blanket dismissing things under false pretenses or changing your wording to cover up that fact as has happened numerous times thus far. The justifications given for Rule#0 takedowns in that thread have changed a lot, the definition of archive, as given to me by you has changed twice in this thread alone, as per staff engagement.
 
I already clarified that I did not stop ‘using the site’ after Twilight got her wings. Indeed. I’ve come here a lot and while I didn’t speak to many members of the community, I did stick around pony circles and have absolutely seen how derpibooru’s influence is expressed. The term ‘the largest pony community archive’ was synonymous with Derpibooru in the minds of most of the community up until this incident, as that was the primary perception cultivated by staff interaction over twitter and all other places where staff have interacted. Do not presume me ignorant because I haven’t been liking images in years. I have never gone away. I am not bitterly attached to my definition of archive, and I have demonstrated that numerous times by explicitly using the definition that you yourself gave me.
 
And lastly, you claiming to me that it was the type of archive that it is is advertising your site as a pony community art archive, even now. You advertise the site as the type of archive you said it is, but don’t even follow those definitions. THAT is the problem, not that you’re not adhering to ‘my definition’. I have been and will continue to work with your definition of it, stop pretending I’m not, you’ve done this multiple times now and it’s putting words in my mouth that I did not say.