@tuypo1  
Canada actually has more people shot in schools per capita per year than the US does.

Ah screw it may as well have my say.
 
Arming teachers is not an ideal solution (although even without it they should be allowed to arm themselves) but until the united states fixes the cultural issues that lead to their constant school shootings it’s the only real option.
 
If you think guns themselves are the issue you are an absolute moron.

@Background Pony #8365  
there is some still minor far-right European groups that want to lobby for removing gun control laws in Europe  
European far-right groups do have a long history of wanting to remove gun control laws, but only for certain people; America has that too, since a lot of our gun control history is tied up with Jim Crow and the highly selective enforcement of those laws. Even today, several states where the law says local/state governments may issue permits to own or carry firearms, those who get approved for such permits tend to be a bit paler than those who get denied.
 
@kittyzuzu  
so give an argument as to why the NRA isn’t good for America  
For the same reason Feinstein and Schumer et al. aren’t good for America, because they wrap the issues of gun control and Second Amendment rights in stupid culture war bullshit. Both sides of our idiotic two-party system keep doubling down on virtue signalling to the most extreme lunatic fringe of their voting base because they know the lunatics and care-a-lots are the ones who vote.
 
The NRA is bad in particular because it literally has an openly racist, drug abusing, self-confessed pedophile on its Board of Directors who brags– on the record– in interviews about having sex with children; it is absolutely not a good face for responsible gun ownership anymore.
 
@DarkObsidian  
I’ve always asked myself why Americans are so obsessed with their guns  
If the US ever pulls out of NATO and the individual EU member states have to actually start allocating major portions of their budgets on defense instead of a functioning social safety net, y’all are gonna start being obsessed with guns too in short order. We need guns in a way you do not, because we have more violent crime, and we have more violent crime because our near-total lack of any social safety net whatsoever drives millions of people to hopelessness and desperation.
 
@aroddo  
The NRA pushed politicians to prevent the CDC from funding researching gun violence  
The Dickey Amendment was passed because several officials at the CDC openly stated that they intended to conduct studies for the sole purpose of promoting gun control, regardless of the results; CDC has never been barred from researching _{~gun violence}~, they were only barred from using public funds to advocate for gun control, and they decided on their own that if they weren’t allowed to engage in political advocacy they weren’t going to do the research at all.
 
@Background Pony Number 17  
Probably the reason they weren’t overrun by Germany in the last century  
Why would the Nazis rob a bank they already owned? Also, look at a topographical map of Switzerland, it wasn’t worth the effort even if they hadn’t been laundering Nazi money from stolen businesses/artwork and gold literally pried from the mouths of concentration camp victims.
 
@cloudkicker108  
to the point of ignoring common sense  
If you honestly believe guns are the problem and gun control is the solution, “common sense” is already off the table.
 
The actual reason why any Second Amendment defending organization fights the small restrictions as well as the large is that gun control is a long term strategy of state-level legislative incrementalism, where rights are chipped away a little at a time and never regained, until they’re gone completely. It’s the exact same strategy the Republicans use to chip away at reproductive rights.
 
After all, you can’t purchase alcohol until you’re 21  
But you can join the military and get shipped off to kill and die overseas at 18, and you don’t see any kind of problem with that? This is why 18 got the vote in ‘71. If it’s wrong for a 19 year old to buy a rifle it’s wrong for him to be issued a rifle as well.
 
You can’t stop one thing from happening just because it there is the potential it could lead to something else  
That seems like a very odd statement to make in defense of gun control, of all things.
 
Last I checked, it was illegal for civilians to possess and use military grade weapons  
I don’t think you actually checked. Machine guns, grenades, rocket launchers, plastic explosives, etc. are all legal at the federal level, just heavily regulated and priced out of the range of the working class by punitive taxes and onerous paperwork requirements.

@kittyzuzu  
Most European countries let you start drinking at 18 (several at 16), and some cultures (Italians for example) have adolescents drink a watered down glass of wine with their supper. Germany lets you drink beer at 14.
 
So alcohol isn’t a good example of things that should be restricted until old age.
 
But every man should be able to defend himself, his home/family and his country. Rifle ranges used to be a standard in high school in the US. We should go back to that. Learn to respect the weapon. And if schools are armed, wannabe shooters will stop trying to shoot them up. “Gun Free Zones” are just free fire zones.

@kittyzuzu  
Since it’s clear we are only going to keep butting heads, I suggest we end things here. Let’s agree to disagree.

@cloudkicker108
 
Ok, you’re strawmanning right now. When did I say I agreed with everything the NRA did? I said iI agreed with their opposition to raising the age of firearm ownership.
 
And yet cars kill more people than guns (Civilian side), but most states at 17 you can get your license. I main point is, even if a few people do absolutely horrible things, that isn’t justification to take the rights away from some one who have done nothing wrong.
 
You can? or are you required? I said at 18 you must registrar for the draft, formal term known as the selective service. If you could be forced (Once again something I agree with) to kill and possible die for your nation at 18, you should get your full constitutional rights. And the only reason I think you shouldn’t drink to 21, is the damage it could due to your developing body. Heck, I don’t think males should drink till their 25, when their frontal lobe is fully developed. However, on this case, to each their own. Your body, so you can damage it in that way.

@kittyzuzu  
The US has not only culture of guns, but legal requirements that we act like Switzerland in the arming and training of all men with firearms. The fact that it is left up to the individual, city, county or State to actually carry out such training and isn’t accomplished is a travesty.

@kittyzuzu  
How is the NRA doing the right thing by shooting down any and all regulations on gun ownership? That’s practically the definition of intolerance.
 
I understand that firearms are used for hunting and marksmanship. But that doesn’t change their inherently destructive nature; to disable targets.
 
Again, military life and civilian life are two entirely separate things. Just because someone can join the military at 18 does not automatically mean they are also capable of handling a gun in everyday life at that age. Using a weapon for combat is different from using a weapon for sport or even self-defense. Moving the minimum age up does not deprive anyone of their rights.

@Flummoxed Phoenix
 
 
Awesome possum! Your point?

@kittyzuzu  
All able-bodied male American citizens (or those intending to become citizens) between the ages of 17 and 44 (inclusive), except as provided in section 313 of title 32, and any female citizen who joins the National Guard are members of the Militia.  
-10 U.S. Code § 246 (a) (paraphrased)
 
A well regulated militia (as above, constituting the ENTIRE MALE POPULATION who are healthy and between the ages of 16 and 45, exclusive) being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.  
-Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.
 
All men in the US should be armed and trained IOW US Federal Law and the Constitution. Failure to do so means you are a failure as a citizen and, IMO, should be flogged. To death. On a Sunday.

@cloudkicker108
 
@cloudkicker108
 
Ok, I take your word for it. But this case, the NRA is doing the right thing.
 
 
You do realize there are many guns out their designed for hunting and marksmanship competitions right? in fact the M4 was made for these things, not self defense. there are many uses for guns out side of self defense.
 
Automatic firearms become highly regulated with National Firearms Act of 1934. It is nearly impossible for the average citizen to attain a fully automatic fire arm now. (Though I personal disagree with that, however, that’s a different argument). Shoulder-fired missiles…. yeah, no way an average citizen is getting one of these, and I fully agree with that. Though it would be freaking awesome to use, after taking all safety procedures, on a object.
 
 
Why do I think not allowing an 18 year old the right to fire arms is an unjust law? Well to touch on the subject of military service again. I don’t no your sex nor your age, but if you are 18 and male, you had to register for the draft, right?.( Which is something, as a male, feel is a biological duty of our sex. When the time comes to truly defend your nation, you must answers the call). But with that, you also earn your right to vote, and I don’t see any reasonable reason why, as a law abiding and trusted citizen, you can’t own a firearm own for, 1 self-defense, 2 sporting, 3 legal hunting. Unless you done something to prove you don’t deserve your constitutional right, when you reach the age of 18 and register for the draft, you should have the full rights of the 2nd adamant.

But then I’d have to un-equip their amulets of teaching! I only have so many equip slots!

@kittyzuzu  
I wasn’t trying to connect civil rights with gun rights in any way. I am merely making the point that the general notion of holding back from doing the right thing just because of fear is counterproductive.
 
Automobiles (at least the ones made for the general public) are not built for the specific purpose of maiming and killing. Exactly how is raising the minimum age from 18 to 21 stripping people of their rights? It’s at most an extra measure of security.
 
When I say military grade weapons, I mean things like fully automatic firearms and shoulder-fired missiles.

@cloudkicker108
 
 
Not sure what gun rights have to do with civil rights. But I will say this, blacks, whites, yellows, etcs, all have the constitutional right to tangible power.
 
You’re right, guns in the wrong hand, even the hands of some one who had no intention to hurt others, can lead to harm. But so can automobiles. In fact you are way more likely to be killed or to kill some one with a automobile especially people under the age of 16. However, just because a few people( Compered to the U.S population) Are reckless, that isn’t a good argument to take away rights of an individual who is responsible. And driving isn’t even a constitutional right. With that being said, an 18 year old is subject to the same background checks as 21. Do people slip through the system, yep, but that’s not a reason to add more gun control. It’s a reason to make sure the agencies responsible do their damn job.
 
When you say military grade weapons, you need to be more specific. Are you comparing a M4 to a M1 Abrams tank? Because that’s like compare a steak knife to a claymore

@kittyzuzu  
Paranoia is still paranoia, though. You can’t stop one thing from happening just because it there is the potential it could lead to something else. If African Americans in the mid-20th century didn’t practice civil disobedience because they feared retribution from white men, there might not be any civil rights in the United States.
 
Underage drinking does indeed harm the body, but guns can kill people, especially in the hand of people who lack the training or mental capacity to properly use one. The human brain is still developing even at age 18. Just because you can do certain things in the military doesn’t mean you can also do them as a civilian. Last I checked, it was illegal for civilians to possess and use military grade weapons. Moreover, the military has always operated by different set a rules from the civilian world.

I hope no admin will deleted any our postings. I’m curious about the exchange about this terms AND it’s take reference to the picture of the thread. Yes, there is a forum, but I think till now most of the people just want to participate this way.

@Background Pony Number 17
 
The Swiss (much as poland) has a strong history in defending against German rule. And I don’t mean the supressing of other races, it’s just like they never wanted to be part of the HRE (Holy Roman Empire). Till today all Swiss people are prepared to defend their independence. The topology of Switzerland conforms that.
 
In Germany we always… have our (little) troubles with that. Because the most dedicated thing here is economy we left them being that way. But don’t misunderstood the tax-cd-affair. Germans are well awared that the Swiss is a problem in the borders of the EU. But we appreciate their wish to be independant. I guess their will be a way to left them out of the EU but give back all the money laundering. In the end it’s all about money.

@cloudkicker108
 
I can honestly understand their view on doing this. ‘You give them an inch, they take a mile’. Now, not saying all people who call for gun control have a desire to turn the U.S into Australia, but they are definitely those who wish to do so. So, while it is true that the NRA can be paranoid in some cases (Every group has their moments) in this case, I will have to agree with the NRA. And comparing drinking to gun ownership isn’t the same. Underage drinking can damage the development of the body. While gun ownership is a constitutional right. true, kids do not have full constitutional rights. But 18 vs 21 when it comes to gun ownership, is arbitrary. Considering you can join the military while you are 18 to fight for the defensive of your country, I don’t see why you shouldn’t have the right to own firearms to defend oneself then.

@kittyzuzu  
The NRA has been resistant to not just extreme gun control measures but any and all regulations on guns, to the point of ignoring common sense. They literally sued the Florida State Legislature for attempting to raise the minimum age for purchasing firearms from 18 to 21. Now, I understand wanting to protect rights, but what harm could possibly come from something as straightforward as bumping the minimum age up just a few years? After all, you can’t purchase alcohol until you’re 21.

@DarkObsidian  

 
From what I’ve heard, the Swiss require every able-bodied adult male to have a gun and ammo. Apparently they take that whole “citizen’s militia” thing quite seriously. Probably the reason they weren’t overrun by Germany in the last century.

@aroddo
 
Is that so? Well I do know, there were 38.658 deaths due to firearms in 2016. 22,938 (Or 59%) of them were due to suicide (Tragic, but shouldn’t be counted towards gun violence). Homicides counted towards 14,415 (or 37%) of these deaths. Yes, that is gun violence. However, according to a study from the CDC on 2010-2011 gun violence, close to 80% of gun homicides are the cause of gang violence, not random acts of recently insane, law obeying citizens. So in conclusion dehorning the gazelle (Law abiding citizen) won’t defang the lion (Criminals who won’t obey gun control laws).

@kittyzuzu
 
Well, why should they? I’m a moral-lawful civilian myself and I don’t have the wish nor the need to carry a gun outside my house. Yes, I have a licence to own small weapons and a rifle in my own rooms. But I don’t need to.
 
It’s a little bit the problem who was first. The egg or the chicken. I know most people outside don’t have guns (expect the police) and so I neither. I’m feeling safe. Yes, there are a bunch of jerks who could attack you. But I can preper myself by combat technics and just being watchful. Women carries peper spray or something like that to defend themself (if they aren’t in martial arts). So everything is normal on a daily base of struggle.
 
Jeah, there are exceptions. But believe me or not. There are no mafia mobs outside, there are no misbelief in our gouverment, there are no harsh tensions between christians and muslims (until now). So there is no meaning in being armed or not. You can feel safe and life with this. And not only in my country, it’s the same in most of the EU. I know because I traveled a lot and never get problems anywhere. And I’m not the person other people would say: Uhhh… he’s dangerous. No, actually I’m looking very kind and a little bit feminime. I struggled my whole life against this and jerks who thought they could take my lightly. But still I wouldn’t wear a gun in my private life. That’s the simple solution, the dedication to be STRONG AND POWERFUL! But if you meet with other people on the same turf, when nobody carries guns, you’ll wonder how much less violence there is.
 
Ah, sry guys, my English surely is very bad and I would’t never judge Americans for their way of life. Maybe you don’t get what I mean, but at least I tried to say: this world isn’t quite perfect, but you don’t have to make it worse.

Trump is a moron.

@kittyzuzu  
ok, here’s an argument: The NRA pushed politicians to prevent the CDC from funding researching gun violence. For over 20 years, there were no publicly funded studies regarding gun violence, because the studies might reveal that gun violence is bad and preventable.
 
So the NRA is bad for America because it prevents America from doing research that would safe lifes.