Should "Prosthetics" Imply "Amputee" If The Pony Has Cybernetic Limbs?

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Due to a discussion with user Gadget Steelmare about their OC art getting the amputee tag when their OC doesn’t have amputated limbs but cybernetic limbs, I was wondering what the general consensus is about cybernetic limbs, and if they should have the amputee tag. Also, maybe we should create a “cybernetics” tag for cybernetic limbs that doesn’t imply amputee, and set up an implication for amputee with prosthetic limbs.
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Oh hey, I’m relevant here. Yeah, my character may have lost her legs, but those prosthetics are surgically attached to her body.
 
My thought was that the “amputee” tag should refer to characters that have either a visible stump, or an artificial limb that sits over a stump, like the kind that exist today that have to be taken off and put on regularly.
 
EDIT: For instance, >>1335567 would be a perfect example of an amputee. Visible stump, AND an artificial limb that sits over her stump, but does not attach directly into her body.
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Personally: I feel that prosthetic limbs should imply “amputee”. Since the limb is replacing a body part that is no longer there.  
While the literal definition of “Amputee” is one who has undergone the medical procedure. I feel it’s a general enough of a term to apply to an instance where a character has lost a part of their body. Such as Rainbow Dash having lost her wing in the Crystal War timeline, and replaced it with a prosthetic one. Or characters who have replaced body parts with cybernetic/prosthetic ones.
 
I’m not sure a separate tag would be appropriate.
 
@Gadget_Steelmare  
I’m curious why you feel the amputee tag doesn’t apply, when you say your OC did lose her limbs.  
Or, more specifically: Why do you feel there needs to be a “stump” in order for it to count as amputation, instead of just the loss of a limb?
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@Zeb  
I more view “amputee” and “amputation” as two separate things, if that makes any sense. I know that one implies the other, but (to me, at least) there’s a difference between someone who is an amputee, and someone that has a cybernetic implant/augmentation/etc. Amputee usually implies at least some degree of being handicapped. My character isn’t. The legs (or arms if anthro) are just like the real thing, only metal.
 
I suppose it’s one of those perspective things.
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That’s a good question, if someone intentionally has their arms or legs replaced with cybernetic limbs, do they count as an amputee? If you draw or show the surgery, it should count be tagged “amputation”, but I don’t think they would be an amputee once they have working cybernetic limbs/replacements.
 
And yet a drawing of a pony missing a limb that has to get around on crutches or a wheelchair might still be tagged amputee. Hmm.
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Another point I forgot to mention is that adding the “amputee” tag will give the wrong impression for some pictures. When I see that tag, the first thing I think of is that somebody is going to be missing a limb in the picture. If it’s replaced with a mechanical one then I don’t really think it fits. Yes, it’s technically correct, but it’s not generally the first thing people think of when they think of an amputee.
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Going by definition they’re all prosthetics, and I think that if the limb was removed and then, some time later, prosthesis installed (as opposed to replacing the limb with prosthetics directly, for example as an upgrade) it’s “amputee”, and if it integrates with the body it’s “cybernetic limbs” and “cyborg”. This also means that any prosthetics-over-stump situation are amputees.
 
 
Basically, Adam Jensen isn’t an amputee, but he does have cybernetic limbs and is a cyborg. Rarara in this >>62652 meanwhile is an amputee and a cyborg, and the specific instance of character would be “amputee” even on a picture with all cyberlimbs attached.
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@Barhandar  
That’s exactly my thought. I know there are some people that dislike amputee pictures, but like cyborg pictures, but unfortunately there’s one person that keeps adding the amputee tag to every picture with a replacement limb, so unfortunately said people end up missing the pictures. It’s generally not a good idea to try and devote yourself to adding or removing specific tags to every image you think deserves it. That’s how you get into tagging wars. I should know, since there was one guy that was religious about going through the “impossibly large breasts” tag and removing any pictures that didn’t fit his personal opinion. We ended up getting into a fight over a picture I uploaded. I say leave that sort of thing to the actual staff. If any tag needs to be mass-added, the staff have special tools for that. All we should be doing is doing the initial tagging, and a few tag additions if the uploader missed anything.
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@Gadget_Steelmare  
Some of the more difficult tagging wars I’ve had to intervene on did include the amputee tags, with some individuals on one side who abhor images with amputations of any kind even implied in them, and others who find the images very normal or even affirming and positive.
 
Slightly more than 500 people filter the tag “Amputee”, while slightly more than 70 watch it. So, for this tag, the “Neighs” significantly outweigh the “Yeas”.
 
For myself, I agree that prosthetic limbs should imply “amputee”. But I don’t see this tag as anything more than a statement of the facts of the image.
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The issue lies in the assumption that for someone to have robotic limbs, one has to lose their real limbs first, so the subject is an amputee, therefore the tag applies.
 
Of course, a subject could be built as a cyborg, and in this case, they always had robotic or cybernetic limbs and thus were never an amputee. Then we have the case of limb enhancement where maybe the limb was never removed, but instead robotics were integrated into their existing limbs.
 
As a result, I don’t think we can imply “prosthetic limbs” -> “amputee.” It’s not a 1:1 relationship.
 
The only way we could please the “prosthetic limb” -> “amputee” crowd is to create a tag for enhanced limbs such as “cybernetic limbs,” where the subject has limb enhancements but never had their original limbs amputated. Beyond that, it gets too tedious to keep track of.
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@Gadget_Steelmare  
@Barhandar
 
I see where you both are comming from.
 
To me, personally, someone doesn’t stop being an “Amputee” when they replace the body-part. Since they are still missing the original.
 
 
@Nittany Discord  
Hmmm… We could Imply “Amputee” on the Prosthetic limb tag. And for situations like you said, where a character was built as a cyborg/had never lost a limb in the first place. We could use Cybernetic limbs or similar.
 
This could also allow people who do not wish to be associated with the “amputee” tag to still have the artificial limbs tagged. Just throwing out a couple of ideas.
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@Zeb  
Would someone remain an amputee if they had someone else’s limb attached there instead of (gone) theirs?
 
Why do you consider an equally functional prosthetic to not be a valid limb?
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There is a side discussion that needs to take place eventually on the myriad of <prosthetic X> and related tags (I did some cleanup on this around a year ago), but I want to gather more data on it first. Fake horn, Fake wings, mechanical hand, mechanical wings, artificial wings, artificial hands, artificial horn, prosthetic limb, prosthetic arm, prosthetic leg, prosthetic wings, prosthetic eye, etc.
 
I think that regardless of whether the limb is mechanical, fully cybernetic, or even a peg leg, the amputee tag should still apply if the limb was implied to be lost through some traumatic event. We can differentiate between different types of prosthetics, but I don’t think that having a fully-functional replacement limb negates the fact that it’s a replacement, regardless of how functional it is.
 
On the other hand, I’m sympathetic to the situation. Maybe I want to filter pictures of characters missing a limb, but I’m ok with seeing pictures of characters with prosthetic limbs (like the show did). Maybe it would be better for our usage to have the amputee tag only apply to images of characters without replacement prosthetics.
 
People who don’t want to see either can filter amputee and prosthetics, while those who are ok with the latter can just filter amputee.
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@cheezedoodle  
Though, in that instance, wouldn’t a complex filter serve their needs? Where they can filter out “amputee” but allow exceptions for pics also tagged “prosthetic” or such?
DrEraser
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I had no idea there had been tagging wars over “amputee”. I’m pretty heavily invested, emotionally, on getting it right; I write amputee pony fanfics, read them too, and tag amputee pics I notice are missing the tag when I search other tags. I’ve been doing so for a year or more. Until Gadget Steelmare brought it to my attention, I hadn’t even considered there might be a problem. Thanks, GS!
 
 
Tangent: Lately, I’ve been conscientiously using “congenital amputee” (the correct medical term) for ponies missing a limb since birth. This is something that isn’t visually obvious and is usually buried in the backstory on dA or Tumblr, so no penalty if it’s not immediately tagged correctly.
 
Solutions are good things. I have some ideas, please debate:
 
  1. The tag “prosthetics” should be added on every applicable picture, from robot eyeballs to peglegs to magical automail. It should be implied by every such tag, and considered a categorical tag containing many types of prosthetics, not a descriptive tag that is exclusive to a certain level of technology.
     
  2. For the technologically advanced prosthetics, and the ponies attached thereto, several terms have the pop-culture cachet to be the primary implied tag: cyborg, cyberpunk, augmented, enhanced, cybernetic, bionic, etc. I suggest “cyborg” for simplicity’s sake (though the Terminator series applied that to robots wearing flesh instead of brains wearing metal). Augmented is the Deus Ex term, but as I understand it, implies replacing parts with “better” artificial parts. However, I don’t have a dog in this race, so I’ll leave that call to more experienced taggers and mods.
     
  3. Amputees. Since the word itself offends some, and since its accuracy is debated, a wiki page should make the guidelines decided in this thread perfectly clear. I do think that tagging pics of ponies with un-prosthetized stumps as “limb stump” (to differentiate from tree stumps and horn stumps) would suffice as a tag that could be filtered out (or sought eagerly, depending on one’s proclivities). Alternatively, “missing limb” is a mostly neutral term which could contrast nicely with “prosthetic limb”.
     
  4. I wonder if there’s a way for a user to choose to hide the fact that a picture has a tag someone finds unsavory? That way, someone could browse to their heart’s content without ever knowing a given tag has been added. Just a thought.
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@TheMasterEraser  
Getting it right is admirable, especially here where tags are important, but don’t get obsessive with it. Still, this is why we have this forum. We can discuss and make decisions on tags without tag wars.
 
As far as your solutions:  
  1. I agree here. Any addition or replacement to a body part is technically a prosthetic. If we go with my suggestion and have a “cybernetics” tag, maybe we can have “cybernetics” imply “prosthetics.”
     
  2. “Cybernetics” can also imply “cyborg,” or we can just alias it to keep it all under one tag.
     
  3. We can set up a formal tag definition here. In my opinion, “amputee” is someone that lost a limb, not someone that was born without one. Gadget’s argument is that when a limb is artificially enhanced, or if a cyborg is built from birth (i.e. Terminator) and not created from a previously-living organism (i.e. Adam Jenson), then they weren’t technically an amputee since they never totally lost a limb to gain a cybernetic one.
     
  4. Not that I know of, unless there’s a script for it.
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@TheMasterEraser  
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1: I can agree with “Prosthetic” possibly being a “catch all” term that’s applied to all forms of artificial augmentation. The only conflict I can think of right now would be a specifically constructed cyborg. Where the artificial limb isn’t serving as a replacement, but was intended to be there from the beginning.
 
But, I feel that would be such a niche case, or infrequent enough, that simply removing the tag when it doesn’t truly apply would be easiest.
 
2: I’m not 100% sure on using an alias between those terms. Though the specific discussion of what to label an augmented pony/cyborg may be better in its own dedicated thread. Looking at some of the tags listed, I am seeing at least 100+ pics under a few of them, so it seems that entire subject needs some cleaning and organization. Again, possibly left for a separate discussion for now.
 
3: I agree with that application of “Amputee”. A creature that had lost a limb that was originally a part of its body. And though they may have replaced it with an artificial limb/part. The original is still missing. And then “Congenital amputee”, which is for when one is born missing a limb/part that they should have had. [The only example I know off of the top of my head is oc:cherry blossom ]
 
The only immediate difficulty I see in such distinctions is determining which OC each tag applies to. Since one needs to get into their history/backstory in order to find out. As well as some users could still tag in the other term without knowing. While not a large error, I can see it leading to some annoyance.
 
We do technically already have a tag called Missing Limb, though it is Severely under tagged. But right now most of the images under it feature the characters as, well, missing a limb. With only a few of the images showing them also wearing a prosthetic.
 
Possible solution: Take the “missing limb” tag, and use that to apply to all images of a character who is missing a limb, and is not wearing a prosthetic. As well as have that tag imply “amputee”. Then people who only wish to filter out images where a character is actively missing a limb could use that tag.
 
Meanwhile: Have “Amputee” on all images featuring prosthetics, and full missing limbs, and that way anyone who wishes to filer out all instances of a character missing/replacing a body-part would be able to use that tag.
 
Does that make sense?
 
4: I believe that would defeat the purpose of the tagging system. The point isn’t for people to not know a tag is there. The purpose is for people to either search for, or filter out content as they desire. Making it so someone is unaware that a tag exists on an image, and still letting them see said image would make filtering tags rather pointless.
DrEraser
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  1. There are wearable prosthetic cybernetics that require no surgery, such as (well-known example from Steven Universe) Peridot’s limb enhancers. In addition, clothing, glasses, and shoes are technically prosthetics to enhance the skin, eyes, and feet respectively. For our purposes, however, few people will be pedantic jerkwads enough to make an issue of it. I’m okay with “cybernetics” implying “prosthetics”.
     
  2. Cyborgs, CYBernetic ORGanisms, are beings whose bodies have been integrated with cybernetics. I’m not comfortable with conflating the two with an alias. I’ve seen pics of whole/natural ponies working on a friend’s or customer’s cybernetic limb while the cyborg isn’t present in the picture, and there’s a pic of Blackjack as a cyborg with her cybernetic limbs removed (except the surgically attached sockets). I say keep both tags.
     
  3. Agreed, again with the caveat that “congenital amputee” accurately describes ponies born missing limbs, such as askviewingpleasure’s oc:Cherry Blossom. I am willing to spend an evening or three (or more) adding “missing limb” to pics tagged “amputee” or “congenital amputee” so that those averse to stumps can avoid them with a single term.
     
  4. Oh well. I guess if someone really dislikes a term the rest of the community is okay with, they can get a Chrome or Firefox script to substitute another word wherever it appears.
     
    And FYI, the tags “modular”, “half”, and “dismemberment” (usually gore) also deal with bodies made incomplete, to varying degrees and by various methods.
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@Zeb  
The purpose is for people to either search for, or filter out content as they desire. Making it so someone is unaware that a tag exists on an image, and still letting them see said image would make filtering tags rather pointless.
 
Very much agree. In my experience, being able to filter any image that has any kind of amputation or body part replacement is very useful for those individuals who have any kind of phobia involving losing limbs or what might actually be “body horror”. It seems to be one of the more incendiary topics.
 
So, where the original question is concerned, having “prosthetics” imply “amputee” seems a useful thing.
 
And while cybernetics certainly should not imply amputation, any more than prosthetics would imply something like mutilation, where a limb has been completely replaced it would be helpful if the uploader tagged the image with amputation so those searching for that tag, or more important filtering it, would be able to do so.
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@Zeb  
If complex filters let you “hide X unless accompanied by Y” then that would be ideal. I haven’t actually looked at how they work, as I stopped filtering when I joined the staff.
 
 
Anyway,  
I second the idea of a tag for limb stumps, when visible, to make filtering even easier. We could just repurpose the actual stump tag, which is mostly stuff that should be retagged as tree stump anyway.
 
missing limb should just be aliased to amputee. That’s what all those pictures are depicting (except maybe one show animation error)
 
As for cyborg/cybernetics/augmented, I just noticed that the first two are aliased now. Did that happen recently? I think cyborg should imply cybernetics (and both should imply prosthetics), and one or both tags would be used on images of sufficiently-advanced prosthetics. Augmented should probably be aliased into cyborg, as well.
 
mechanical wing, artificial wings: either alias these to prosthetic wing (best) or imply prosthetic wing (and the rest of the chain)
 
<thinking implications out loud follows>  
peg leg > prosthetics, prosthetic limb, amputee, stump  
prosthetic limb > prosthetics, amputee  
prosthetic wing > prosthetics, prosthetic limb, amputee
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The Magic of Friendship Grows - For helping others attend the 2020 Community Collab
Dream Come True! - Participated in the MLP 9th Anniversary Event
Toola Roola - For helping others attend the 2019 Community Collab
Economist -
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.
Artist -
A Tale For The Ages - Celebrated MLP's 35th Anniversary and FiM's 8th Anniversary
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.

Weirdo
If complex filters let you “hide X unless accompanied by Y”
Gave it a try and hiding (amputee, -cyborg) seems to show me only cyborgs when browsing the amputee tag.  
So yes, complex filters let you do that, as far as I can tell.
DrEraser
Non-Fungible Trixie -

I wrote another reply to this thread (I thought), but I don’t see it now. There were also several posts from others that had gotten pretty detailed, and were pretty solution-oriented. Did I reply to the wrong message somehow?
Zeb
Praise the Sun! - Derpi Supporter
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2019) - Celebrated Derpibooru's seventh year anniversary with friends.
Economist -
Notoriously Divine Tagger - Consistently uploads images above and beyond the minimum tag requirements. And/or additionally, bringing over the original description from the source if the image has one. Does NOT apply to the uploader adding several to a dozen tags after originally uploading with minimum to bare tagging.
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2018) - Celebrated Derpibooru's six year anniversary with friends.
Cool Crow - "Caw!" An awesome tagger
Birthday Cake - Celebrated MLP's 7th birthday

Tag-Bot
@TheMasterEraser  
Huh. Possibly? I’m not seeing anything deleted on my end. [shrug]  
Though, also not seeing any posts in other threads listed under your profile other than the last 2 posts in this thread yesterday. [Or day before, tough to tell the exact time]
DrEraser
Non-Fungible Trixie -

Hm. It must not have saved. Maybe connectivity issues? Oh well.
 
This is how I see the definitions we’re working with, which can be adapted as tag descriptions:
 
Action-centric tags:  
  • ‘amputation’ - Short description: The removal of a limb or bodily protuberance. Long description: The removal by surgery, violence, magic, etc. of at least one limb (arm, leg, wing, tail), protruding body part or part of a limb (hoof, finger, ear, snout, tongue), or permanently attached replacement limb (cyber-leg, magically implanted mechanical wing, etc.). Tag applies to any image showing the removal. For removal of heads, see ‘decapitation’. For removal of horn, see ‘broken horn’  
  • ‘magical amputation’ - amputation by magical means; see ‘amputation’.  
  • ‘amputation prank’  
  • ‘voluntary amputation’
     
    Character-centric tags:  
  • ‘congenital amputee’ - a character confirmed to have been born missing a limb.  
  • ‘amputee’ - a character confirmed to have lost a limb after birth. (Implied by tags ‘double amputee’ through ‘septuple amputee’.)  
  • ‘cyborg’ - a character with permanently integrated or removable electronic prosthetics.
     
    Body-part-centric tags:  
  • ‘missing limb’ - a picture with any character visibly missing a limb. (Implied by missing leg, missing arm, missing wing, missing finger, etc. If applied consistently, this can be the single, unambiguous, functionally filterable tag that everyone here wants.)  
  • ‘stump’ - a picture with any character’s limb ending prematurely in a stump. (Should imply ‘missing limb’. Also, we should consistently re-tag unrelated ‘tree stump’ and subsidiary ‘horn stump’ and ‘wing stump’ pictures.)  
  • ‘prosthetics’ - a replacement body part. (Implied by prosthetic wing, augmentation, etc.)  
  • ‘cybernetics’ - an electronic body part replacement, enhancement, or augmentation. (Should not imply ‘cyborg’ because of pictures of ponies working on somepony else’s cybernetics, somepony else who isn’t shown in the picture.)  
  • ‘pegleg’ - implies ‘prosthetics’. (The same should be true of most other specific limb replacements.)  
  • ‘bandage’ and ‘stump sock’ may be applied as needed.
     
    Example: >>1208446 has as many tags missing as she has relevant: currently tagged “amputee, augmented, bandage, prosthetics”. ‘amputee’ is accurate because her backstory (on one of her derpibooru images) is that she was struck by lightning. ‘augmented’ I would argue against; the springy false legs replace, not enhance, her body’s functionality, and don’t look high-tech enough to be ‘cybernetics’. To these tags, I would add ‘missing limb’ (which is implied by ‘missing wing’ and ‘missing leg’), ‘stump’, ‘wing stump’, and both ‘quadruple amputee’ and ‘triple amputee’ since people may be searching for three-legged ponies. Without cybernetics, she’s not a cyborg.
     
    Since I’m emotionally invested in these, I’ve mostly stopped tagging until we decide on a course of action. Once we okay these, I’ll be back at it with a vengeance, this time in keeping with community tagging decisions.
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