Male Herm should not imply 'herm' nor 'futa' tags

Male herm characters are not futanari characters as they act like males and use male pronouns
 
They are not female.
 
They are males that also have some female parts.
 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Futanari
 
Note the defenition of futa or futanari is essentially ‘lady that also has a penis’ ergo calling a “man with a cunny” a futa is like a slap in the face to those of us that, yanno, slap to the face, particularly if people feel that way as a person too.

@Britemac  
Both sex organs = herm regardless of rest of body.  
Herm implies futa.
 
futanari is alao literally just the word for hermaphrodite.  
It historically had broader use, but w/e.
 
It fits the qualifications for the tag

We don’t really gender herms/futas here.

So basically fuck me for not liking having the futa tag forced upon my oc right, that’s pretty fuckin’ awesome there. I mean, it’s not like there’s an overarching internet standard for the term futa or futanari right, oh wait their bloody is, and it’s ‘female with a penis’

I’m not exactly fond of the way the tagging convention is for futas/herms/other forms of intersex here either, but it’s hard to change things after several years of the same. Unfortunately, there’s nothing we can do barring time travel. :x
 
At least male herm still exists as a tag and can be used.

@LightningBolt  

 
Yes, and if male herm is tagged, it’s shouldn’t include ‘futa’ in the chain, as male herms use male pronouns and preffer to be viewed as ‘one of the guys’ not as a ‘girl with a dick’. There in is why I’m so bloody upset about this, as I personally am male with female urges at times and still prefer male terms.
 
If you go to anything and search ‘futa’ images you get breasts and dicks, which isn’t applicable to male herms.
 
If you need a ‘catch all’ for both sets of genitals, why not use a term like ‘Duplex’ or something

@Britemac  
This was brought up in the past. And it had eventually settled into the current use of the Futa tag. While yes, other sites do use Futa for a different meaning, we had settled on using it for the current definition.  
In other places of the internet, Futa is used how you describe it. But on this site specifically, Futa does not have that meaning. It being tagged on your image is not labeling the character as female or anything of that nature, since those definitions are not applied to the tag on this website.
 
The futa tag merely identifies the presence of both characteristics. While the specific tags, herm and male herm, give people the specifics of what they’re looking for.
 
Think of it like the Clothes tag. It’s an umbrella tag encompassing every possible article of clothing a character could be wearing. And people can use it if they just want to see characters wearing clothes of any sort, or filter it if they only want fully nude characters. And then the specific articles of clothing are tagged if people wish to see/filter specifics.
 
That’s how the Futa tag is being used on this site. It does not contain any implication of the character being female. It’s only that the character has characteristics of both males and females. On Derpibooru it is considered its own individual gender, with no implications male or female.

@Zeb  

 
Then why does the male herm tag auto apply the herm tag as well

@Britemac  
since they’re hermaphroditic.
 
Anyway, basically, futa tag here is the intersex tag on e6 for the most part. (-cuntboys and guys with tits which e6 doesn’t have a tag for.)

yes, but to those who use those types of set up, there is a notable difference, and why not just use the ‘intersex’ tag, that’d work pretty well, and then futa could be used as the norm for the internet overall, and thus solve the issue

@Britemac  
Since then people complain, plus we’d have to fucking retag 10s of thousands of images for nearly no benefit.

@Rdobet
 
Maybe no benefit from your viewpoint, also, couldn’t you just, rename the current ‘futa’ tag to a new name then re-add it as a new tag, that’d save all the work of people having people re-hide things, and for yall on work load, and it wouldn’t alienate people as much who are, understandably, irked about characters they have being labeled something they, by the STANDARDLY USED DEFINITION of the word, are not.
 
Also: great insight as to why you seem so adamantly against it, not because it’s the ‘right’ term, but rather because you think a change would require a massive retag. I understand yall are volunteers and such, but, wow, just, wow. That’s like saying you’d call an m2f trans male still cause it’s easier, no bueno.

@Britemac  
we could change the tag easily, but then we’d still have to go and reapply/remove the futa tag to all the pics that fall under it in the new definition, and (assuming my understanding of this is correct), since it’s such a massive tag, the site would almost need to be shut down/entirely dead to do it
 
 
Also, it had been tried back in the early, early years of the site. It didn’t work as you can tell.
 
Also, also, nice random strawman/false equivalence at the end :v

@Britemac  
“Massive retag” goes beyond the images.
 
Referring just to Futa as an example, There are 6,047 users who filter the tag - either spoiling it or hiding it. If we change the tag’s definition or use in a way that either adds images to the tag or removes images from the tag, those people may suddenly begin seeing images that they had already filtered.
 
There are also 3,266 users who watch the tag.
 
If we change the purpose or definition of the tag without discussing it with the community and letting people know what is happening, then we would be undermining the primary feature of this site - the ability to filter and search based on our community tagging.
 
Might some of those people be more happy with a Futa tag that goes beyond the current definition of “Beings with feminine characteristics and penises, including hermaphrodites”?
 
Possibly - but if this change is made then we need to make a site-wide announcement informing people this change is being made, so those 9,000+ users could adjust their filters accordingly, and we would want to go through all 24,394 images currently on the site that are using that tag to ensure that they still deserve the tag, and to add whatever new tags are more appropriate for the image.
 
Your statement “I understand yall are volunteers and such, but, wow, just, wow. That’s like saying you’d call an m2f trans male still cause it’s easier, no bueno.” ignores the consideration we try to show our users in ensuring that they are able to both find, and hide, images as they please.
 
And - let’s be clear - if the community has been talking for 2 years about whether “an m2f trans” is “female”, and still has not reached a consensus, and there were 25K images using the tag and 9K users depending on its definition for their filters and watch lists, then yes, we probably would still have that tagged as “male” so that filters and searches still function within the definitions that exist on the site.
 
A “Retagging effort” is significantly more than simply changing a value in a database - it means proposing, and receiving community support for, a redefinition of several tags, and making sure that the new definitions continue to support the filtering and search needs of the users.
 
As has been pointed out already, this is a conversation that started two years ago, and that has been revived every few months ever since
 
Would it be easy to just go into the database and flip the term?
 
Absolutely yes, but you’d want to do it off peak.
 
Would you be a volunteer on the site if you thought that was a great idea and wouldn’t result in any confusion or drama amongst the community here, rightly so because it would utterly ignore over 2 years of discussion about the tag and how it should be used on this site?
 
I think the answer is obvious.
 
I can tell that the definition of this tag is incredibly personal for you, and that you are hurt by its current definition on this site. But that definition is impersonal - and changing it will require integrating a new set of definitions not just across fields in a database, but across the many individuals on the site who depend on the current definitions to both hide and find images that are significant to them.
 
This is something that absolutely will continue to talk about, please leave personal attacks aside and try to keep your comments constructive.

Looking at the code I see herm is tagged as follows
 
<span class="tag dropdown" data-tag-id="29988" data-tag-name="herm" data-tag-slug="herm"><a class="tag__name" href="/tags/herm" title="Beings with both male and female genitalia.">herm</a><span class="tag__count"> (2474)</span><span><span class="tag__state" title="Unwatched"> +</span><span class="tag__state hidden" title="Watched"> -</span><span class="tag__state hidden" title="Spoilered">S</span><span class="tag__state hidden" title="Hidden">H</span></span><span class="dropdown__content"><a class="tag__dropdown__link hidden" data-method="delete" data-remote="true" data-tag-action="unwatch" href="/tags/herm/unwatch">Unwatch</a><a class="tag__dropdown__link" data-method="put" data-remote="true" data-tag-action="watch" href="/tags/herm/watch">Watch</a><a class="tag__dropdown__link hidden" data-method="delete" data-remote="true" data-tag-action="unspoiler" href="/filters/spoiler?tagname=herm">Unspoiler</a><a class="tag__dropdown__link" data-method="post" data-remote="true" data-tag-action="spoiler" href="/filters/spoiler?tagname=herm">Spoiler</a><a class="tag__dropdown__link hidden" data-method="delete" data-remote="true" data-tag-action="unhide" href="/filters/hide?tagname=herm">Unhide</a><a class="tag__dropdown__link" data-method="post" data-remote="true" data-tag-action="hide" href="/filters/hide?tagname=herm">Hide</a><a class="tag__dropdown__link hidden" href="/users/sign_in">Sign in to Watch</a><a class="tag__dropdown__link hidden" href="/filters">Filter</a></span></span>
 
If this is anything my coding experience with roll20 is like, wouldn’t you be able to set Herm, Male Herm, and futa to a single grouping that would hide all of them if one of them was hidden with an if/then statement, such as…
 
<if: data-tag-name=”herm” = Hidden, then: hide data-tag-name=”male-herm”, data-tag-name=”futa”> or something similar, my html is honestly pretty rusty, but I do know you can set different things to ‘flag’ as the same while displaying different names. A change like that to the back end would allow for things to stay exactly the same on the front end, while decoupling the futa/herm/male-herm/other interesexed characters things.
 
Actually, now that I think about it, an easier way would be to just have an <!> line that puts them all to the same back end code state without changing the displayed tag.
 
Also sorry if I get heated this is a rather….personal issue for me, thus why I’m so upset about it, I do not try to have personal attacks, but I personally feel like I’m missing half of what I should have in that manner yet I still view myself as ‘male’ so the ‘norm’ of what futa implies to me, while not upsetting on it’s own, is however, upsetting for it to be applied towards me (and by extension my OC). I do not mean to lash out, but as it stands this entire thing is rather upsetting to me as a whole.
 
If the it was set that male herm, futa, herm all ‘tagged’ under the same group (for the purposes of hiding/spoilers/etc) it would solve the issue, would it not?

@Britemac  
I’m not 100% clear what you’re going for, but if you want to just change the appearance of tags (in your browser specifically), you might be able to put together a little Javascript + HTML DOM manipulation (i.e. a userscript) to rewrite the displayed text in the ‘futa’/‘herm’/etc tags so they look different.

@Exedrus  

 
I’ve no problem with the tags existing, rather that male herm forces ‘futa’ as a tag, there in is my problem based on the everywhere else on the internet def of ‘futa’. I know it’s listed under a different definition here, but it every one else says a chair is blue and one person says a chair is green, the chair is blue, yanno?

Also: doesn’t the herm tag have the exact definition that ‘futa’ is being used for currently, so it would apply as a thing for people who don’t wanna see chars with both sets of genitals, I just noticed the desc for futa and herm is the same, so why not remove futa as it is now, by merging it with the current ‘herm’ tag, and then re-add it to be by it’s normally accepted definition of ‘girl who has a penis’
 
Also: the defenition of futa, for this site, and from the best of my knowledge, only this site, deviates MASSIVELY from the widely accepted norm, that being “In today’s language it refers almost exclusively to characters who have an overall feminine body, but have both female and male genitalia”
 
A male herm has a masculine body, and looks male until you look explicitly at what alls goin’ on in their genitals. The only ‘female’ trait they have is also having female genitalia. Ergo, labeling them as futa is wrong, as the way this site defines futa is wrong.

@Britemac  

 
It doesn’t “force” it - it “implies” it.
 
You may remove it as you wish. The community may restore it based on community tagging standards. If that becomes a tagging war (as it did) then staff gets involved (which we did). That’s why we’re here talking about it in the forums.
 
How the site is coded isn’t the issue - the issue is the community support for the existing tag definitions.
 
You keep saying “everywhere else” disagrees with our tagging definitions.
 
But when you’re talking about “Futanari”, “everywhere else” had better include Japan, in which case our definitions on the site are correct. So please stop saying “everywhere else” I “why we should force a change on the community without any input from them”. Because saying that we should change the definition that has been hammered out on this site over the course of two years, ignoring the existing community consensus, just because in your opinion it disagrees with “everywhere else” (when it clearly does not), is not helping your argument.
 
When you talk about your own personal attachment to the definition of the word that you personally support, that is a much better argument. That’s something I can get behind. But this “everyone else is right and we’re wrong” stuff is observably false.
 
And if you want to change the tag’s definition, please focus on the definition for the tag, not the drop-down code for hides and watches, because we’re not going to special case one freaking term in the code.

Let’s start again. You are proposing a change to the definitions of at least two tags, possibly more.
 
Here’s the current definition for the two tags that I believe you are saying should be changed:
 
herm  
Short description: Beings with both male and female genitalia.  
Aliases: hermaphrodite  
Implies: futa  
Detailed description: NULL  
Implied by: herm on female, male herm
 
futa  
Short description: Beings with feminine characteristics and penises, including hermaphrodites  
Aliases: futanari  
Implies: NULL  
Detailed description: NULL  
Implied by: duo futa, female on futa, fmilf, full package futa, futa abacus cinch, futa adagio dazzle, futa aloe, futa apple bloom, futa applejack, futa aria blaze, futa arizona cow, futa babs seed, futa barb, futa berry punch, futa bigger than male, futa bon bon, futa carrot top, futa cheerilee, futa cherry jubilee, futa cloudchaser, futa coco pommel, futa colgate, futa coloratura, futa cup cake, futa cutie mark crusaders, futa daring do, futa derpy hooves, futa diamond tiara, futa dinky hooves, futa edit, futa eris, futa filly on filly, futa filly on human female, futa fleur-de-lis, futa flitter, futa flutterbat, futa fluttershy, futa focus, futa gabby, futa gilda, futa granny smith, futa human on stallion, futa indigo zap, futa lightning dust, futa limestone pie, futa little strongheart, futa lotus blossom, futa lyra heartstrings, futa mane six, futa mane-iac, futa marble pie, futa maud pie, futa mayor mare, futa moondancer, futa ms. harshwhinny, futa ms. peachbottom, futa nightmare moon, futa nightmare rarity, futa nightmare star, futa nurse redheart, futa oc:button’s mother, futa oc:milky way, futa octavia melody, futa on colt, futa on cuntboy, futa on female, futa on filly, futa on futa, futa on futa frottage, futa on human female, futa on male, futa only, futa pinkamena diane pie, futa pinkie pie, futa pony on human female, futa pony on human male, futa pov, futa princess cadance, futa princess celestia, futa princess ember, futa princess flurry heart, futa princess luna, futa queen chrysalis, futa rainbow dash, futa rarity, futa ruby pinch, futa sapphire shores, futa scootaloo, futa silver spoon, futa sonata dusk, futa sour sweet, futa spitfire, futa starlight glimmer, futa sugarcoat, futa sunset shimmer, futa sweetie belle, futa tree hugger, futa trixie, futa twilight sparkle, futa twilight velvet, futa twist, futa velvet reindeer, futa vinyl scratch, futa zecora, futadom, futaria, futas only, herm, herm on female, human futa on stallion, male herm, male on futa, oc:futashy, shemale, solo futa, stallion on futa filly, tentacles on futa
 
What do you believe the definitions and implications should be changed to?
 
What other tags do you believe need to be added or changed to make your new definitions work as intended?

This is particularly having to do with male herms, as, if you note in all the bulk of the ‘implied’ tags there, the character in question would go off feminine terms, where as male herms still use masculine terms. Futa, on it’s own tends to imply femininity, which for a character or individual that prefers to be seen/viewed in a masculine way that can be seen as an insult (based on how things are in most parts of the world at the moment)
 
Perhaps just adding in ‘male herm’ as a different tag that has it’s own connotations would be the better option, and it could ‘imply’ herm, however, it should not imply futa.
 
Also, the reason I say it’s the commonly accepted way the term is used, is also summarized here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futanari where it denotes the uses, outside japan and the use in today’s language.

@Derpy Whooves  
I am a friend of Britemac’s, and want to chime in.  
I see futa as say…a mare with only a penis and maybe balls. Maybe have ‘Herm’ or ‘Hermaphrodite’ be a term to imply both ‘Female Herm’ and ‘Male Herm’ for filtering, whereas ‘Herm’ filters both the others. It would allow one to filter ALL hermaphroditic pics, and those that just don’t want to see one variant to pick the appropriate one. A female herm can be a futs, but not all of them automatically are. Male herms are definitely not futas, as the male modifier clarifies the character as being male, but with both sets of genitalia.  
A character that is normally female, with only female genitals, changed to have a penis, regardless of whether or not she still has female genitals is a futa. If she still has female genitals, then she is a female herm. Hope this might give an idea that could work, and let the community work through the changes as it can.

@Britemac  
Still waiting to find out what you are proposing the new tag definitions should be changed to.
 
That’s the meat of these kinds of descriptions - you keep proving that the definition is wrong: make your proposal of what it should be changed to, and lay out the retagging effort for that you envision to be necessary to bring images on the site into alignment with your proposal (ex: images that appear to be a male should be tagged “A” and images that appear to be female should be tagged “B”).
 
@Fleety  
How do we determine what a character was “changed from”? All we have is “the character” - a snapshot of their existence, and for many of the characters they were not “changed from” something else - they are hermaphrodites.
 
Are you trying to force all hermaphrodites to be defined as having either a male or a female “base gender” that determines “what kind of” hermaphrodite they are?

@Derpy Whooves  
I am saying that if a character is primarily male or female in body type, then it can be stated as such. A herm that is masculine, but identifies as female could have ‘female herm’ and ‘masculine’ for tags, I would think. If the character is androgynous, then simply being labeled ‘herm’ would suffice, in my opinion. The modifiers would be for those that want to differentiate the character, as I do with my OC’s that are hermaphroditic. I specify herm mare or herm stallion for pony OC’s that I have that are herms.

Futa : A character that has a feminine body, uses female pronouns, but has a penis
 
Hermaphrodite: A character containing both a penis, and a vagina, typically uses more feminine pronouns and body type
 
Male Herm: A character containing both a penis and a vagina, uses masculine pronouns and has a masculine body type
 
This would be what I’m suggesting (just got a sammich so belly isn’t distracting me and not working cause lunch break)