Princess Luna 
Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
There was a staff discussion on this matter back when this thread was active, and from it we agreed that character tags should be for when AI creates something identical to a character.
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Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 76
Background Pony #B788
@Ricolove
The title of your hypothetical website would be an oxymoron. All the websites like this that I’ve seen are titled as general concepts or concepts that would require more than just a picture to exist. “Fluttershy” isn’t a general concept and would “exist” with only a picture. If your website was specifically for Fluttershys, then a more accurate title would be something like “Now This Fluttershy Exists” or something.
But anyway, I agree that they shouldn’t be tagged as canon characters and think the “not” tags are the best solution.
The title of your hypothetical website would be an oxymoron. All the websites like this that I’ve seen are titled as general concepts or concepts that would require more than just a picture to exist. “Fluttershy” isn’t a general concept and would “exist” with only a picture. If your website was specifically for Fluttershys, then a more accurate title would be something like “Now This Fluttershy Exists” or something.
But anyway, I agree that they shouldn’t be tagged as canon characters and think the “not” tags are the best solution.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 75
Ricolove 
Pony Lover
OMG this thread is so long by now…do we got a conclusion or consensus here?
In my view, a nerual network produce what you feed. If I use the same network with the training set contains only Fluttershy images, then I can easily got a “ThisFluttershyDoesNotExist” website. So how should we tag these images that produced by AI…?
If you remove Fluttershy tag for TPDNE images because it claims that they do not reflect to any real pony, then you should also not tag my TFDNE images because I claim that they do not reflect to the canon Flutteyshy.
However, I also claim that this is Fluttershy, but just in another…parellel world? So all TFDNE should be tagged as Fluttershy.
What a paradox!
But I don’t care what will be the final decision anymay. I have hidden TPDNE tag because it was spamming my watchlist.
In my view, a nerual network produce what you feed. If I use the same network with the training set contains only Fluttershy images, then I can easily got a “ThisFluttershyDoesNotExist” website. So how should we tag these images that produced by AI…?
If you remove Fluttershy tag for TPDNE images because it claims that they do not reflect to any real pony, then you should also not tag my TFDNE images because I claim that they do not reflect to the canon Flutteyshy.
However, I also claim that this is Fluttershy, but just in another…parellel world? So all TFDNE should be tagged as Fluttershy.
What a paradox!
But I don’t care what will be the final decision anymay. I have hidden TPDNE tag because it was spamming my watchlist.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 74
Roxor 
Trying to go by individual features is just operating on the wrong meta-level. The tagging system we’ve got is a high-level system, and it’s a high-level system because when it comes to images we suck at describing them in terms of low-level details. Police sketches are being phased out for newer systems involving picking a few high-level features and doing selective breeding to generate a closer match to what the witness can remember for exactly this reason.
All the philosophical waffle is just a waste of time and bandwidth. If I’ve got my filter set to hide alicorn twilight, then I don’t care if the image of alicorn twilight that turns up was drawn by a human, is a screenshot from an episode I haven’t seen, or generated by a neural network. I want that image gone, and tagging it as “alicorn twilight” (or whatever aliais it gets converted to this month) is the quickest way to accomplish that.
If you really need a way to settle the matter, then why not solve it the same way it was created: with a neural network. Train another neural network as a classifier with no neural-network-generated images in its training data. If after training it classifies an image generated by a neural network as containing a particular character, then the image gets tagged as that character. If it can’t tell the difference, I think you’ll find most of the site’s users will agree with it.
All the philosophical waffle is just a waste of time and bandwidth. If I’ve got my filter set to hide alicorn twilight, then I don’t care if the image of alicorn twilight that turns up was drawn by a human, is a screenshot from an episode I haven’t seen, or generated by a neural network. I want that image gone, and tagging it as “alicorn twilight” (or whatever aliais it gets converted to this month) is the quickest way to accomplish that.
If you really need a way to settle the matter, then why not solve it the same way it was created: with a neural network. Train another neural network as a classifier with no neural-network-generated images in its training data. If after training it classifies an image generated by a neural network as containing a particular character, then the image gets tagged as that character. If it can’t tell the difference, I think you’ll find most of the site’s users will agree with it.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 73
Cloppershy 
That’s really my main argument. Tags are for searching and filtering, and not tagging characters that are clearly recognizable just makes those features less functional. Arguing about edge cases is besides the point, because edge cases shouldn’t affect how the clear cases are handled.
At least using the
@arfa
I “warned” about this in my second post here. If a user “designs” a character using the editor there is really no way you can question the artist’s intent that has been brought up here. The editor is just a tool, like Photoshop. If I create a character using that tool, the image should be tagged as that character (as is the case with any other image on this site).
I still think the tool deserves a mention on the image. It can be linked in the source field, which is searchable, but the source for an image like that can also be an external site where it was uploaded first. That’s why I think it could also get a tag, but I don’t know if it should be the same
Pone Addict
tl;dr I would conclude that the question is “would someone who wants to see/avoid Fluttershy pictures want to see/avoid this picture?” I think there are pictures from ThisPonyDoesNotExist where the answer is “yes” and it is appropriate to tag them as a character.
That’s really my main argument. Tags are for searching and filtering, and not tagging characters that are clearly recognizable just makes those features less functional. Arguing about edge cases is besides the point, because edge cases shouldn’t affect how the clear cases are handled.
At least using the
not [character] tags still enables the searching and filtering if you know about these tags, but it requires extra effort.@arfa
Also, I’m not sure how ponies made with the editor should be tagged. Is the artist still TPDNE, or the person who used the editor? If they intend to make a certain character, should it be tagged as such?
I “warned” about this in my second post here. If a user “designs” a character using the editor there is really no way you can question the artist’s intent that has been brought up here. The editor is just a tool, like Photoshop. If I create a character using that tool, the image should be tagged as that character (as is the case with any other image on this site).
I still think the tool deserves a mention on the image. It can be linked in the source field, which is searchable, but the source for an image like that can also be an external site where it was uploaded first. That’s why I think it could also get a tag, but I don’t know if it should be the same
artist:thisponydoesnotexist tag or an unprefixed one. Probably the latter, as “pony creator” images are tagged the same way.Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 72
arfa
Not to derail the conversation, but I released an early version of the pony editor and am looking for some help naming each of the sliders and determining what they do. See this thread for details.
Also, I’m not sure how ponies made with the editor should be tagged. Is the artist still TPDNE, or the person who used the editor? If they intend to make a certain character, should it be tagged as such?
Also, I’m not sure how ponies made with the editor should be tagged. Is the artist still TPDNE, or the person who used the editor? If they intend to make a certain character, should it be tagged as such?
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 71
xbi 
you come across as needing a “chill pill”, making repeated consecutive wall-of-text posts
Sorry :] I just to explain something. Explanations are always longer then lack of explanation.
Well, I see the following points from LightningBolt:
Well, I see the following points from LightningBolt:
- very subtle and complicated philosophical pure theoretical topic “algorithms don’t have intentions” leads to harsh practical consequences “let’s remove tags and make search difficult”.
- Colors are easy and colors are enough to search specific character
- If half of images get some tag then the other half get 0 zero tags, and it is “not fair” for images.
LightningBolt continues to use these 1,2,3 points without explanation why it should affect tags and search.
I continue to write walls of text that points about colors and “intentions philosophy” are 1) are very subtle and controversial, there are thousands books on these topics 2) actually difficulty of these subtle questions is totally not related for tag utility
And the point about is justice for images…. I was trolled by this… Where comes this “justice” for images from? If SOME pictures get 0 character tags why ALL other images must have 0 character tags for some image justice?.. Yes, some images get 0 character tags, why this cause any problem. Actually this gives benefits, categorizing pictures into two types. Lack of popular character in the image is useful information too. It is curios to see generated original characters and compare their designs.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 70
Background Pony #421F
tl;dr below in bold
I also believe it’s appropriate and useful to tag character names on “AI generated image that looks a lot like
holy crap xbi, you come across as needing a “chill pill”, making repeated consecutive wall-of-text posts
My opinion comes from my understanding of tags’ utility: what purpose does the tag “fluttershy” have to users? Someone would want to see (search) or avoid (filter):
A) depictions of Fluttershy
B) media involving Fluttershy’s character
A) is supported by
A) is both narrowed and broadened by context or artist’s intent, eg. excluding very similar-looking OCs (when
B) …pretty much supplies all of the extra situations where A is narrowed or broadened, and itself is hindered by the tagging schema of A applying to a multitude of out-of-character and entirely meta content.
When there is no artist to have intent, B) is inapplicable. Definition of the content is completely in the hands of squishy human observers. A) remains as a reason for tags to be used.
tl;dr I would conclude that the question is “would someone who wants to see/avoid Fluttershy pictures want to see/avoid this picture?” I think there are pictures from ThisPonyDoesNotExist where the answer is “yes” and it is appropriate to tag them as a character.
(Mods can see that I’ve tagged
Re: all the rest of the philosophy:
In a perfect world, we could run opinion polls, find out majority opinion, etc. etc. Heck, tags themselves could get upvote/downvote scores for their relevance to a given image. We don’t have that, so I’m following my intuition.
@LightningBolt
I also believe it’s appropriate and useful to tag character names on “AI generated image that looks a lot like
character”. holy crap xbi, you come across as needing a “chill pill”, making repeated consecutive wall-of-text posts
My opinion comes from my understanding of tags’ utility: what purpose does the tag “fluttershy” have to users? Someone would want to see (search) or avoid (filter):
A) depictions of Fluttershy
B) media involving Fluttershy’s character
A) is supported by
disguised changeling images also having the tag of the character they are impersonating, and tagging things like an in-scene photo or statue of a character.A) is both narrowed and broadened by context or artist’s intent, eg. excluding very similar-looking OCs (when
not fluttershy gets tagged), and including race swaps, alternate manestyles, and the extreme range of artstyles from show-accurate to almost unrecognizably stylized or of different colors, eg. natural human skin and hair colors.B) …pretty much supplies all of the extra situations where A is narrowed or broadened, and itself is hindered by the tagging schema of A applying to a multitude of out-of-character and entirely meta content.
When there is no artist to have intent, B) is inapplicable. Definition of the content is completely in the hands of squishy human observers. A) remains as a reason for tags to be used.
tl;dr I would conclude that the question is “would someone who wants to see/avoid Fluttershy pictures want to see/avoid this picture?” I think there are pictures from ThisPonyDoesNotExist where the answer is “yes” and it is appropriate to tag them as a character.
(Mods can see that I’ve tagged
not X on TPDNE images, because I’m following the rules although disagreeing with them.)Re: all the rest of the philosophy:
In a perfect world, we could run opinion polls, find out majority opinion, etc. etc. Heck, tags themselves could get upvote/downvote scores for their relevance to a given image. We don’t have that, so I’m following my intuition.
@LightningBolt
It looks like it, sure, but it wouldn’t be fair to lump it in with the rest and it’s still one big assumption and people will of course ONLY do it with main characters and nothig else. Best to have none of them have character tagsinstead of playing games.
doesn’t prioritize main character favoritism.
and once again, NO ONE will tag characters or OCs unless they are super well known so what will ALL OTHER images get? Fucking nothing if they stick to character tags.
You keep posting this assertion, but I really don’t know what you’re on about. It doesn’t seem like a problem. Of course main characters will be recognized and tagged more; they are main characters which people see a lot and deal with a lot, which itself lends even more weight to the argument that they are good to tag.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 69
xbi
Some constructive proposal, which IMHO better follows natural people behavior in tagging and search, and stop tag war in generated images. New users will continue to tag character in generated pictures in future too even if you warn old users to stop this.
- If something looks like X for many people, add tag X. “many” means “many”, not anyone. “Many” is something like at least 5%. Or 90%. 5% or 90% not so important for most except some rare cases. Not 0.001% like mad people who can see everything in hallucinations or trolls.
Moderator can revert changes when such tagger’s assumptions were actually wrong. This stop rare insane people or trols to interpret every character the way they want.
- Tag artist intentions too when they are known.
- If artist is known to disagree with additional extra tags, remove them. Assume KNOWN artist intention to draw some specific character as such disagreement. Just because we know in advance that this is sensitive and important. So if picture is from source with unknown intentions or artist published without character name in description, just add possible character from visual appearance.
Assume disguised changelings as artist intention to put into picture both characters - the disguised one they draw from character references and changeling character. - Image rating tag or other super sensitive tags like fetishes can override artist intentions (“it not foot fetish, these foots are actually hands”, “it’s not little girl, but adult woman”, etc).
Implications:
I think this solves cases mentioned here:
disguised changelings
tagging anonymous artist upload with unknown descriptions
treat ai-generated pics same way as these anonymous uploads
avoid drama from OC owners “don’t tag OC gift from a fellow artist as canon character” (if it is mentioned somewhere by artist this is OC drawing).
allows to tag everything seen in picture even if artist didn’t mention it and but also didn’t mention explicitly the opposite.
Monochrome sketch of Rainbow Dash can have both tags ‘Daring Do’ and ‘Rainbow Dash’ when artist intentions are not known. Some generated fusions can have both tags at once. Not a problem.
Image with apple where artist tell this is banana can have both tags ‘banana’ and ‘apple’, if artist didn’t explicitly say it is banana only and they are offended by telling it as an apple.
Image with explicit genitalia where artist tell this is actually safe pictures still will be tagged as explicit even against “artist intentions”
Most generated pictures will have 1 tag or 0 character tags. Some rare exceptions will have 2-3 character tags, not a problem. 0 character tags (“fucking nothing”) are not problem too. Possibly add something like “unnamed pony” or “oc”/“unnamed oc” for these pics with 0 character tags.
Possibly I don’t know something, and I can miss some cases. It is hard to make peace with different opinion of many viewers and artist and hard to write all cases in rules. But with the AI there are no problems, because AI does is not offended with any interpretation. So there is no reason to make piece between AI and viewers, we can just listen to viewers.
TLDR: - allow users to tag character the way they want in generated/anonymous pictures if there are at least some far similarity. Enough similarity to allow moderator to feel it.
- solve difficult contradictions of artist and viewers opinion in non-generated pictures the same way as before. They were difficult, they continue to be difficult to solve.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 68
xbi
My posts are long, because I try to explain in terms of real world profits and drawbacks for existing people who use tags, Without reffering something invisible and impossible to check and not affecting anything observable. The spiritual difference of “intentions” in human brain cells and computer memory cells. They work different ways, but it is hard to define difference of their “intentions” concept. And that even if we assume total domination of “intentions” this makes us to tag only artist text description instead picture content
Also it requires lot of text to explain that colors are not easy to define and give all explanations and examples.
I can draw Fluttershy-like picture and tag it as Rainbow Dash, and claim it was “artist intention to draw Rainbow Dash”. It this ok? Draw an apple and claim artist intention to draw banana, etc.
Also I can add Queen Chrysalis into almost all my ~500 arts, claiming that character in the picture is changeling in disguise. Claiming it is “my artist intention”. Viewers will not be happy, but we don’t care about them, only invisible “intentions”. If this is tag vandalization, then removing character from thisponydoesnotexist pictures is vandalization too. I also can post character drawing claiming they are not any existing characters. This is evidently inconvenient for viewers, but why to protect this inconvenient decision for generated pictures?
Also it requires lot of text to explain that colors are not easy to define and give all explanations and examples.
I can draw Fluttershy-like picture and tag it as Rainbow Dash, and claim it was “artist intention to draw Rainbow Dash”. It this ok? Draw an apple and claim artist intention to draw banana, etc.
Also I can add Queen Chrysalis into almost all my ~500 arts, claiming that character in the picture is changeling in disguise. Claiming it is “my artist intention”. Viewers will not be happy, but we don’t care about them, only invisible “intentions”. If this is tag vandalization, then removing character from thisponydoesnotexist pictures is vandalization too. I also can post character drawing claiming they are not any existing characters. This is evidently inconvenient for viewers, but why to protect this inconvenient decision for generated pictures?
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 67
logman
“Fluttershy” tag, does not exclude “not Fluttershy” tag.
If someone is looking for pictures with Fluttershy, he will find them on the tag “Fluttershy,” but at the same time the tag “not Fluttershy” show an idea for this drawing.
So why not both? This will satisfy anyone interested in finding or publishing art.
If someone is looking for pictures with Fluttershy, he will find them on the tag “Fluttershy,” but at the same time the tag “not Fluttershy” show an idea for this drawing.
So why not both? This will satisfy anyone interested in finding or publishing art.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 66
xbi
What is the meaning of word ‘IS’ here? “This” is 1024x1024 grid of pixels. These pixels are not Fluttershy, they are just numbers in computer cells. Human-made picture also just grid of numbers, this grid is not Flutteshy too. Same way as photo of you is not you. Also Fluttershy never existed in our world, so it is impossible to say for anything existing “this IS Fluttershy”. Still, this grid of pixels have the following property: to produce in our minds memories of the this non-existing character. So it useful to be tagged as Fluttershy. Artist intention is useful to record in tags too, when it is available. There are no problems to keep both. We often keep only taggers interpretation without actually knowing original artist intentions, anyway. Why not to keep taggers interpretation for these generated pictures too? For example >>228309 get tag ‘twilight sparkle’ without any notes from artist or even uploader (I can search for dozens more examples character tag changes under ‘anonymous artist’). Should we retag >>228309 other upload without character description at source as ‘not twilight sparkle’? For the same reason, we don’t have artist intention to draw the tagged character, it is just viwers guesess.
If we take the current approach to replicate tag ‘fluttershy’ as ‘not fluttershy’ for generated pictures, this have exactly all the same problems as version without ‘not’ at the beggining. For example, the ambiguity about how much similarity with Fluttershy is required to tag it as ‘not fluttershy’. The decision to tag everything X in ai-generated pics as ‘not x’ just replicates tagging system and replicates already existing ambiguity of tagging system without solving it. Also someone can broke this system and add also tag ‘not lyra’ to Fluttershy picture tagged ‘not fluttershy’ just for lulz, because there are not rules for ‘not X’ tags and Fluttershy picture tagged as ‘not fluttershy’ can be technically tagged as ‘not lyra’ too.
Also, what is difference between ‘lack of intention to draw smile’ and ‘lack of intention to draw fluttershy’? Should we tag smiling pictures as ‘not smile’ because AI didn’t have human intention to draw the smile? Face expression is viewers interpretation same way as character interpretation.
“this IS flutetrshy”
What is the meaning of word ‘IS’ here? “This” is 1024x1024 grid of pixels. These pixels are not Fluttershy, they are just numbers in computer cells. Human-made picture also just grid of numbers, this grid is not Flutteshy too. Same way as photo of you is not you. Also Fluttershy never existed in our world, so it is impossible to say for anything existing “this IS Fluttershy”. Still, this grid of pixels have the following property: to produce in our minds memories of the this non-existing character. So it useful to be tagged as Fluttershy. Artist intention is useful to record in tags too, when it is available. There are no problems to keep both. We often keep only taggers interpretation without actually knowing original artist intentions, anyway. Why not to keep taggers interpretation for these generated pictures too? For example >>228309 get tag ‘twilight sparkle’ without any notes from artist or even uploader (I can search for dozens more examples character tag changes under ‘anonymous artist’). Should we retag >>228309 other upload without character description at source as ‘not twilight sparkle’? For the same reason, we don’t have artist intention to draw the tagged character, it is just viwers guesess.
If we take the current approach to replicate tag ‘fluttershy’ as ‘not fluttershy’ for generated pictures, this have exactly all the same problems as version without ‘not’ at the beggining. For example, the ambiguity about how much similarity with Fluttershy is required to tag it as ‘not fluttershy’. The decision to tag everything X in ai-generated pics as ‘not x’ just replicates tagging system and replicates already existing ambiguity of tagging system without solving it. Also someone can broke this system and add also tag ‘not lyra’ to Fluttershy picture tagged ‘not fluttershy’ just for lulz, because there are not rules for ‘not X’ tags and Fluttershy picture tagged as ‘not fluttershy’ can be technically tagged as ‘not lyra’ too.
Also, what is difference between ‘lack of intention to draw smile’ and ‘lack of intention to draw fluttershy’? Should we tag smiling pictures as ‘not smile’ because AI didn’t have human intention to draw the smile? Face expression is viewers interpretation same way as character interpretation.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 65
ArmadilloEater
Administrator
French Taunter
@icey wicey 1517
Aye, I’m hoping to convince xbi to go with the path of least conflict, though I really see his argument on pics that are 100% a character, but created by the AI.
@LightningBolt
Oh rly? Explain this then lightning bolt
>:T
Aye, I’m hoping to convince xbi to go with the path of least conflict, though I really see his argument on pics that are 100% a character, but created by the AI.
@LightningBolt
Oh rly? Explain this then lightning bolt
>:T
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 63
Icicle Niceicle 1517 
Ocs,Boops,Tickles&Memes
@ArmadilloEater
i think tagging them with the “Not (character)” tags is the best course of action for this.
i think tagging them with the “Not (character)” tags is the best course of action for this.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 62
ArmadilloEater
Wut
I mean, what would you tag the non specifics anyway? Just imagine them like any other OC drawn by an artist that couldn’t care less what to call them. And in any case from what I’ve seen most people will only post pictures that ressemble a character anyway. Which in itself predicates that you needed a tag to identify them as being close to the original. Imagine there was a character that looked almost identical to you, and I had to tag it “stubborn”, “whiny” and “tsundere” instead of just tagging it “not lightningbolt”.
Administrator
French Taunter
Not character tags are goos
Wut
I mean, what would you tag the non specifics anyway? Just imagine them like any other OC drawn by an artist that couldn’t care less what to call them. And in any case from what I’ve seen most people will only post pictures that ressemble a character anyway. Which in itself predicates that you needed a tag to identify them as being close to the original. Imagine there was a character that looked almost identical to you, and I had to tag it “stubborn”, “whiny” and “tsundere” instead of just tagging it “not lightningbolt”.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 61
LightningBolt 
Senior Moderator
Undead inside
@ArmadilloEater
Not character tags are goos. It still means the ones that look nothing like any major characters or OCs get nothing specific, but at least it also isn’t saying “this IS flutetrshy”
Not character tags are goos. It still means the ones that look nothing like any major characters or OCs get nothing specific, but at least it also isn’t saying “this IS flutetrshy”
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 60
ArmadilloEater
Administrator
French Taunter
Seems that tagging “not [character]” is the main tagging practice amongst users atm, looks like the best compromise IMO. This has been the way Derpibooru has tagged OCs that look almost identical to original characters, even drawn by human artists (the fact that I have to specify “human” artist really blows my mind btw).
It’s a good way to make the images searchable (having to input about a dozen tags to even approximately archive it is kinda silly) and it circumvents the issue of “is this the character or not?” since the tag both means it looks identical to the character, but isn’t meant to be the character. Isn’t that enough for all parties involved?
PS: if a tagging discussion is starting to go into the philosophical or metaphysical realms, I’m pretty sure it’s a sign that it’s time to whip out good old occam’s razor, and go with either what is already accepted or the simplest. In this case the “not [character]” tags are both.
It’s a good way to make the images searchable (having to input about a dozen tags to even approximately archive it is kinda silly) and it circumvents the issue of “is this the character or not?” since the tag both means it looks identical to the character, but isn’t meant to be the character. Isn’t that enough for all parties involved?
PS: if a tagging discussion is starting to go into the philosophical or metaphysical realms, I’m pretty sure it’s a sign that it’s time to whip out good old occam’s razor, and go with either what is already accepted or the simplest. In this case the “not [character]” tags are both.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 59
xbi
They [colors] are more than enough.
No, they are nor enough nor important. Otherwise it would be impossible to recognize characters in monochrome pictures or non-flat-colored rendered pictures. But it is possible to recognize character from monochrome drawing. Colors add some bit of information, but they are not the most important for recognition. I am an artist, I know it. And all drawing tutorials tell that character silhouette shape it the most important thing for character definition ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wm9ti-gzLM ).
You can easily see that actually main characters all have unique silhouettes, recognizable without colors:
Also what color Celestia’s mane has? What tag to use for Twilight’s type of mane? ‘blue’ is not enough to search twilight’s mane too. I am totally have no clues what tag to use for Celestia’s mane coloring.
Yes, some non-artists believe that character colors are the most important character traits. No, it is not. It is important, but not the most important. It is well-known problem when some commissioner trying to measure colors with these #xxyyzz values without any understandig how colors work and trying to force the artist black character to have #000000 color or white character #ffffff color or some other #xxyyzz color measured by RGB eye-dropper from pixels.
You can easily see that actually main characters all have unique silhouettes, recognizable without colors:
Also what color Celestia’s mane has? What tag to use for Twilight’s type of mane? ‘blue’ is not enough to search twilight’s mane too. I am totally have no clues what tag to use for Celestia’s mane coloring.
Yes, some non-artists believe that character colors are the most important character traits. No, it is not. It is important, but not the most important. It is well-known problem when some commissioner trying to measure colors with these #xxyyzz values without any understandig how colors work and trying to force the artist black character to have #000000 color or white character #ffffff color or some other #xxyyzz color measured by RGB eye-dropper from pixels.
You’re overthinking the colors.
I am trying to explain that searching with colors will not work when I want to search for character. I want to search what interpreted by humans as Celestia, not for white coat and I don’t know what type of mane (‘celestia colored mane’?). I can also put huge list of issues related to colors, and lunguistic problems related to color names, but this post become too long. There is no reason to dig into these problems and solve these problems if we can just search character by character’s name.
An AI is not the same as an artist and you can’t compare them at all.
We can argue about philosophical arguments if AI can be compared to human or not, what is “intentions”, etc. There are lot of movies (GiS), books (Stanislav Lem has a lot) and games (“Detroit: become human”) about this. I actually think the opposite, that this AI can complete with most of the artist in production quality. It is very hard for me to draw Fluttershy’s portrait more appealing than >>2398968. And I can’t argue about intentions, just because word ‘intention’ is hard to define, but I don’t see reasons to define it. Until someone is trying to use it for tagging. What definition of word ‘intention’ can lead to difference of tagging for different image production methods? What is ‘intention’ of production process, and how to verify if something have intention, and which one? I can speculate that this AI had ‘intention’. You can it does not ‘intention’, but human brain cells have ‘intention’. How to tell difference? Even if creator human brain had some ‘intention’ thing, why do you allow most of tags to use taggers opinion about image content, without artist declarations about their intentions?
Please, don’t let philosophical arguments and personal opinions about AI affect practical search purposes of other people who don’t care about production method was used but actually search for result.
Yes, human brain cells and matrix multilplication works very different way, but I don’t see how this affects possession of ‘intention’.
Please, don’t let philosophical arguments and personal opinions about AI affect practical search purposes of other people who don’t care about production method was used but actually search for result.
Yes, human brain cells and matrix multilplication works very different way, but I don’t see how this affects possession of ‘intention’.
Yes really. Because one the artist intended something, the other the AI just so happened to combine things that look ‘right’.
This is opinion based on personal philosophical/religious beliefs. Actualy humans brains works in a similar way from learning/production point of view: artist see many pictures of ponies. Then they draw these characters because they saw them earlier. It is possible to argue about philosophical concept such as ‘free will’, what is ‘to have consciousness’, what is ‘intention’. I am not sure you can define what ‘intention’ is, and what is difference of ‘intention’ encoded in human neurons/superposition of physical particles from ‘intention’ enconded in computer cells.
It is really curios philosophical discussion, but please, don’t force philosophical beliefs and hard to define words (‘intention’, ‘decision’, etc) damage search for practical purposes. Also most tags of human-made pictures are actually not declared intentions of the artist. They are mostly often intentions/opinion of taggers, but not artists.
It is really curios philosophical discussion, but please, don’t force philosophical beliefs and hard to define words (‘intention’, ‘decision’, etc) damage search for practical purposes. Also most tags of human-made pictures are actually not declared intentions of the artist. They are mostly often intentions/opinion of taggers, but not artists.
I don’t care if it looks like Fluttershy or not, saying that it is removes all nuance or user opinion.
“I don’t care about other people intentions who use search, only mine”. Please, consider listen to us too. It is possible to remove ai-generated character from search when you want this, but it is impossible for other users to add them back to search when you remove tags. You see that there are lot of people in this topic and picture comments are arguing against the current decision “don’t tag characters in generated pictures”. And we are explaining why this leads to different kinds of problems. These explanations are mostly ingored with belief “robot’s don’t have intentions” without any attempt to define what ‘intention’ is and why it is important for searching :(. Including practical problems when someone wants to search for character pictures. It is doesn’t mean that that majority of people can decide what is the right, but at least that means the decision is controversial. It is not just my personal opinion, it is opinion and suprised for many other users too. I just know more both about drawing and AI, so I can write longer boring logical explanations without reffering to “i am right because i know my phisolophy about thinking process is right”.
They’re not UNSEARCHABLE.
You and Raiboom Dash made lot of pictures “UNSEARCHABLE”, removing any possible way to perform such search except “search all more than 100 pictures with eyes one-by-one” because of personal philosophical believes like ‘robots doesn’t intentions’ without definition what ‘intention’ is and why it is important for searching for all other people with opinion other than yours.
>NO ONE will tag characters or OCs unless they are super well known so what will ALL OTHER images get? Fucking nothing if they stick to character tags.
Actually “nothing” is important for me too! I sometimes curious to search pictures WITHOUT popular character (oc,-fallout equestria,-oc:kate,-oc:apogee,-…) to learn what makes them more or less popular just by drawing quality without using character popularity.
Also, it looks weird to remove character tag just to deliver justice to other pictures. There is no any profit for making some character unsearchable to promote other generated pictures. Also anyway people fave pictures when they recognize a familiar favorite character even if you hide the tag. Why to force character-agnostic justice only for AI generated pictures, the same character-agnostic justice can be applied to all other pictures too, human made-too. Even if you want to use ‘artist intention’ then ‘artist intention’ about character is actually isn’t declared for many pictures. And most of other tags like ‘clothes’ or ‘smile’ or ‘both cutiemarks’ or ‘food’ or ‘uncanny valley’ does not have declared ‘artist intention’, is just what taggers see at the picture.
Also yes, when i search for specific character, i expect “fucking nothing” to be excluded from search results.
>NO ONE will tag characters or OCs unless they are super well known so what will ALL OTHER images get? Fucking nothing if they stick to character tags.
Actually “nothing” is important for me too! I sometimes curious to search pictures WITHOUT popular character (oc,-fallout equestria,-oc:kate,-oc:apogee,-…) to learn what makes them more or less popular just by drawing quality without using character popularity.
Also, it looks weird to remove character tag just to deliver justice to other pictures. There is no any profit for making some character unsearchable to promote other generated pictures. Also anyway people fave pictures when they recognize a familiar favorite character even if you hide the tag. Why to force character-agnostic justice only for AI generated pictures, the same character-agnostic justice can be applied to all other pictures too, human made-too. Even if you want to use ‘artist intention’ then ‘artist intention’ about character is actually isn’t declared for many pictures. And most of other tags like ‘clothes’ or ‘smile’ or ‘both cutiemarks’ or ‘food’ or ‘uncanny valley’ does not have declared ‘artist intention’, is just what taggers see at the picture.
Also yes, when i search for specific character, i expect “fucking nothing” to be excluded from search results.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 58
LightningBolt
How is saying “tag yellow coat and pink mane” making things WORSE than people tagging it Fluttershy. I want to know your logic for that somehow being a worse option and not just a different one. It means that ALL images get the same kinds of tags instead of just SOME getting arbitrary character tags and they rest getting shit.
Senior Moderator
Undead inside
This means people are not forced to be toldYes, people want to be told something looks like X by tag X. You are trying to force the opposite, making some small damage for both taggers and searchers.
How is saying “tag yellow coat and pink mane” making things WORSE than people tagging it Fluttershy. I want to know your logic for that somehow being a worse option and not just a different one. It means that ALL images get the same kinds of tags instead of just SOME getting arbitrary character tags and they rest getting shit.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 57
LightningBolt
Vagueness doesn’t matter. I don’t care if it looks like Flutetrshy or not, saying that it is removes all nuance or user opinion.
They are more than enough. Colors are not that ambigupus and once again, NO ONE will tag characters or OCs unless they are super well known so what will ALL OTHER images get? Fucking nothing if they stick to character tags. You’re overthinking the colors.
An AI is not the same as an artist and you can’t compare them at all.
Yes really. Because one the artist intended something, the other the AI just so happened to combine things that look ‘right’.
They’re not UNSEARCHABLE.
Senior Moderator
Undead inside
If something is too vague as a shape then don’t tag it at all, simple reallySome generated picture are not vague and contains some character in very evident way. So may I tag Flutershy pic as fluttershy, if this is not vague and the picture absolutely clearly depicts Fluttershy without any doubts and even supported by other watchers?
Vagueness doesn’t matter. I don’t care if it looks like Flutetrshy or not, saying that it is removes all nuance or user opinion.
It’s a lot easier to justifiably tag something yellow than to tag something FluttershyI explaned this many times before. 1) Colors are not enough to search for character. Shape are even more important, but there are not tags for them 2) colors are even more ambgious than character intepretation. I gave lot examples and explanations why, and all them were ignored. Colors names are actually our opinions and perception inside our brain. I can mix blue and yellow pixels to produce something intepreted as gray. I can use red colors to produce something intepreted as blue. Even if someone is sure that some dress is blue-black it doesn’t mean that someone else is sure it is white-gold.
They are more than enough. Colors are not that ambigupus and once again, NO ONE will tag characters or OCs unless they are super well known so what will ALL OTHER images get? Fucking nothing if they stick to character tags. You’re overthinking the colors.
This means people are not forced to be told “THIS IS FLUTTERSHY” but they can still see it if they want to. Add the not tags if you must.This is not any way specific for generated thisponydoesnotexist pictures. The same applied to all pictures, non-generated picture tags “forcing” to told us something about the picture. It is even not the artist opinion/intention in most cases, only uploader/taggers. Even when it is artist opinion/intention, other people can have other opinion and don’t agree with something ‘forced’ by tags. Why thisponydoesnotexist should be something different if you care that tags are actually taggers opinion about the picture? This picture >>2047033 “forcing” me to think it has flutteshy. Not a big dial, I think other way, so what. Many more people agree that this is much more fluttesrhy than the previous example - >>2402280
An AI is not the same as an artist and you can’t compare them at all.
Fluttershy:
Not Fluttershy accorindg to current forced tagging guideline:
Really?
Yes really. Because one the artist intended something, the other the AI just so happened to combine things that look ‘right’.
Add the not tags if you must.Could you do this too and add this tag you when you remove tag from clearly Flutteshy-like picture?. Now you and Rainboom Dash user made some pictures totally non-searchable in any way, even ‘non X’ doesn’t work.
At least is makes simpler to revert later decisions based on philosophical claims that production method is the absolute source of decision for image content tagging.
They’re not UNSEARCHABLE.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 56
xbi
Btw, this means that you added some work for tag mods to stop people from natural way of tagging “I see X, I put tag X”. It is impossible to stop such way of tagging without confusing taggers. Without any practical profit for other people, but the opposite. It is possible to force in automated way with scripts, BUT WHY, it makes search worse, not better.
This means people are not forced to be told
Yes, people want to be told something looks like X by tag X. You are trying to force the opposite, making some small damage for both taggers and searchers.
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 55
xbi
If something is too vague as a shape then don’t tag it at all, simple really
Some generated picture are not vague and contains some character in very evident way. So may I tag Flutershy pic as fluttershy, if this is not vague and the picture absolutely clearly depicts Fluttershy without any doubts and even supported by other watchers?
It’s a lot easier to justifiably tag something yellow than to tag something Fluttershy
I explaned this many times before. 1) Colors are not enough to search for character. Shape are even more important, but there are not tags for them 2) colors are even more ambgious than character intepretation. I gave lot examples and explanations why, and all them were ignored. Colors names are actually our opinions and perception inside our brain. I can mix blue and yellow pixels to produce something intepreted as gray. I can use red colors to produce something intepreted as blue. Even if someone is sure that some dress is blue-black it doesn’t mean that someone else is sure it is white-gold.
This means people are not forced to be told “THIS IS FLUTTERSHY” but they can still see it if they want to. Add the not tags if you must.
This is not any way specific for generated thisponydoesnotexist pictures. The same applied to all pictures, non-generated picture tags “forcing” to told us something about the picture. It is even not the artist opinion/intention in most cases, only uploader/taggers. Even when it is artist opinion/intention, other people can have other opinion and don’t agree with something ‘forced’ by tags. Why thisponydoesnotexist should be something different if you care that tags are actually taggers opinion about the picture? This picture >>2047033 “forcing” me to think it has flutteshy. Not a big dial, I think other way, so what. Many more people agree that this is much more fluttesrhy than the previous example - >>2402280
Fluttershy:
Not Fluttershy according to current forced tagging guideline:
Really?
Fluttershy:
Not Fluttershy according to current forced tagging guideline:
Really?
Add the not tags if you must.
Could you do this too and add this tag you when you remove tag from clearly Flutteshy-like picture?. Now you and Rainboom Dash user made some pictures totally non-searchable in any way, even ‘non X’ doesn’t work.
At least is makes simpler to revert later decisions based on philosophical claims that production method is the absolute source of decision for image content tagging. Also it makes images searchable just at this moment. Now I can’t searh of specific generated character for curiocisty. Just can’t. You canceled this.
Not a huge damage, but totally pointless without any practical purpose, this makes me wrote these walls of text to try to prove the evident. People want to tag and search these characters, and you want to cancel this because of imposible to verify non-falsifiable philosophical artuments like “non-humans don’t have intentions” (why no? ok maybe yes, but why vandalize tags because of this philosophy).
At least is makes simpler to revert later decisions based on philosophical claims that production method is the absolute source of decision for image content tagging. Also it makes images searchable just at this moment. Now I can’t searh of specific generated character for curiocisty. Just can’t. You canceled this.
Not a huge damage, but totally pointless without any practical purpose, this makes me wrote these walls of text to try to prove the evident. People want to tag and search these characters, and you want to cancel this because of imposible to verify non-falsifiable philosophical artuments like “non-humans don’t have intentions” (why no? ok maybe yes, but why vandalize tags because of this philosophy).
Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 54
LightningBolt
Senior Moderator
Undead inside
@xbi
So don’t tag colors of horns because they may be inaccurate and look different to other people, but tag characters based on ALL of those even if they may look different to other people.
Yeah, no. It’s a lot easier to justifiably tag something yellow than to tag something Fluttershy AND doesn’t prioritize main character favoritism. If something is too vague as a shape then don’t tag it at all, simple really. This means people are not forced to be told “THIS IS FLUTTERSHY” but they can still see it if they want to. Add the
So don’t tag colors of horns because they may be inaccurate and look different to other people, but tag characters based on ALL of those even if they may look different to other people.
Yeah, no. It’s a lot easier to justifiably tag something yellow than to tag something Fluttershy AND doesn’t prioritize main character favoritism. If something is too vague as a shape then don’t tag it at all, simple really. This means people are not forced to be told “THIS IS FLUTTERSHY” but they can still see it if they want to. Add the
not tags if you must.Tagging Discussion » This Pony Does Not Exist character tags » Post 53
xbi
There is very simple practical reason to allow people to add pictures character name: People add these tags. People want to search for these tags. These tags are useful.
The practical reasons against this are not specific for
The non-practical philosophical reasons are non-practical.
The practical reasons against this are not specific for
thisponydoesnotexist pics, exactly the same practical reasons exists for human-made pictures. Character interpretation is even less ambiguous than interpretation of face expressions or picture emotions or safe/suggestive rating or ‘what type of bird the op is’ tags. If you want to forbid generated images character tags, you can forbid all other tags, and tagging of everything else for exactly the same reasons. They are not specific for generated images.The non-practical philosophical reasons are non-practical.
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