Unpopular opinion time

Latecomer

@Egil  
I can certainly handle it. I just feel such a diagnosis should be a last resort as long as containment is possible and resources are available for sustained attempts at rehabilitation.
 
There are many achievable goals in this world, but the number of things that can’t be done easily is far higher.
Philweasel
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.

Right About Everything
@Egil
This is a world where a grown ass kidnapping time terrorist cult leader is given a room and a job by her would be victim the next day, but a child who did things just as bad is sentenced to perhaps millinia long petrification, and the only thing separating the two is one said “sorry”.
 
I still believe this is fair. Just that one simple word illustrates the ability for self reflection that is near essential for any successful redemption. Why should Twilight bother otherwise? She’s got a dozen villains to reform who do feel a tiny bit guilty about trying to commit genocide.
Star Seeker

Annoying fan has arrived
Just to start off with the most obvious a 10 year old could figure out…
 
Well, that’s a pointless addition to this discussion…  
… Starlight made it painfully aware she knew that kidnapping and using time travel to tear apart friendships were immoral mistakes/things to do.
 
Except the reason she wanted to do it at all was because Twilight destroyed what was basically her life, and thought she deserved the retribution since she thinks she is the one who is right and started hating Twilight for it due to a lie she believed for a great part of her life.  
…. but she had very little ignorance on the immorality of the methods of her actions even by her standards. Even more so then ‘the ends justify the means’, she simply didn’t care how immoral her means were.
 
She probably knows that petty revenge and spitefuly antagonizing someone is bad, but what person that is on a “rightful” revenge quest is ever thinking about that when the person that destroyed their life is out there and laughing?
 
Even if she knew, that doesn’t change that, to her, thoses actions are not “evil” because Starlight thought that the one that was “bad” was Twilight, which is obviously wrong to us, but not to her.
 
Does that justifies what she did? Of course not, she herself admits to that. But she was still understanding of her wrongdoings, unlike Cozy.
 
Her ONLY limit to an acceptable result was an assured apocalypse.
 
Bold of you to assume that. That statement is quite a logic jump; just because she gave up after accepting the possibility of that apocalypse doesn’t mean that she wouldn’t give up over something else like, say, a war, eternal night, the changelings, or anything else that could have be shown to her. The apocalypse was just a dramatic example.  
… Spite and Revenge and Time Terrorism became her choices in the finale over more productive paths BECAUSE she wholeheartedly embraced evil actions. Her actions in the finale didn’t help rebuild her ideology, it simply felt good to her to be evil…
 
No, she embraced them because her form of living in a just world was blocked from her by a complete random strange that told her that her way of life was completely wrong.  
… and spiteful to those she didn’t like.
 
You mean spiteful to those that “wronged” her. Of course, she was in the wrong, but that is not how she viewed it. Twilight just came up randomly and destroyed what she build for presumably years.
 
Don’t get me wrong, targeting someone for revenge and getting a kick out of it is bad, but the one doing the revenge almost never sees it as evil, and this doesn’t apply just to Starlight, but many other characters in fiction.
 
Revenge is wrong, pointless, self-destructive ( In more ways than one in this case) and empty. And that’s the point. What Starlight did was wrong no matter what result it brought, the apocalypse being a possibility is actually the least of her worries, honestly.  
@CronoM  
So you have less of an argument then you initially thought. Unsurprising.
 
I said that because you were referring to S5 Finale Starlight and I only talked about THAT Starlight.
 
And the brainwashing thing was more of an aside comment in the post. As it topping Cozy Glow’s scummy-ness is a possibility that my buddy BadumSquish brought before in this thread and I didn’t want to bother him right now. I don’t actually think that Starlight brainwashing could top Cozy Glow.
 
But of course if you wish to bring the premiere into this, you can.
 
You label it as something as innocent as “overreaction” when any rational person would label it as EVIL.
 
Don’t get me wrong it was a horrible thing to do, no one here will argue that. However, it was more of an misguided “act of justice” by Starlight than an actual evil plan to screw Twilight over. It did involve making Twilight getting what she presumably deserved, but due to something that is personal to Starlight rather than straight up evil.
 
She did get a kick out of it, and that’s horrible, obviously, but she regretted it immensely after realizing how wrong she was.
 
Point is, Starlight was being horrible, yes but she was being horrible for a personal reason, realized how bad it was to keep walking that path (i.e not because of the apocalypse specifically, but how self-destructive it would be to her and thoses around her), and gave up, admitting her mistake.  
… The more you try to defend Starlight in such an obvious manor, the more your argument for demonizing a child still in her development phases falls completely by the wayside.
 
No, it doesn’t; Starlight doing horrible thing, admitting her mistake and reforming is completely different to the Cozy situation.
 
Starlight being a foolishly evil and making up for it does NOT mean that Cozy can do evil things, with full awareness of their questionable label, almost doom Equestria in a non-reversible manner, regret nothing, spit Twilight way of life to her face for no reason, and then expect to be forgiven.
 
Starlight actions were reversible, was ignorant to half of the scale of what she was doing, regretted everything, gave up, and was accepting of any punishment. Twilight could have decided to give her a life sentence or something, no one would have judge her, but didn’t because she saw potential in her and understood why she did what she did, even if she didn’t agree.
 
Twilight reforming Starlight does NOT give her the obligation to reform everyone else, either.  
That’s 100 percent incorrect and you DO already know it. While it is true she denied her own beheld truths at the END, it was only after she was shown the apocalypse that all her confidence in her ideals fell completely apart, she went in full denial mode, tried to show her past to justify herself, but it didn’t hold together.
Going back into the past and facing the truth was only the finishing blow, the actual thing that crushed her confidence was the apocalypse.
 
The apocalypse was the cause, yes, but not for the reason you’re thinking.
 
The apocalypse is only a metaphor for how self-destructive Starlight actions were and why her ideology was wrong, any bad future that Twilight brought her to would have done just as much damage and lead to a similar result. Now, the possibility of ending the world and herself may have been a contributing factor, but it was not the major one.
 
What pushed Starlight in denial mode was Twilight’s friendships being that important to the world, despite them having CMs and basically denying Starlight’s entire worldview.
 
It was not a matter of “welp, doing this will end the world, so I should probably stop”, but of “ This path I walked only leads to a world where misery reigns, and the damage that I will cause will unreversible, exactly what I was devoted to prevent “.  
(and bad writing)
 
… Welp, not opening that can of worms now. Later.  
… She was absolutely fine destroying things precious to Twilight, her bonds, her past, everything. She LOVED the idea of doing it. She literally couldn’t have been more self-pleased enacting her evil deeds towards Twilight.
 
Yes, she loved the idea of giving Twilight her just desserts, but not because of the idea of enacting an evil deeds to someone she hates, but “for justice”.
 
Starlight was doing evil thing that she though were right, and didn’t care about Twilight’s felling because Twilight hurt her in a way she thought would never heal unless she took the revenge route, like most revenge seekers think. And again, she thought Twilight was a nobody whose friendships could not be that important.
 
We STILL have a word for that. Its still called Evil.
 
And that would honestly be one of the lesser crimes that any Antagonist did, especially in a way that affected Twilight personally. Remember Discord when he was evil? Remember Shining and Cadance weeding? Remember Sombra affecting her mind? At least what Starlight did was reversible and while it did leave an impact on Twilight, some of the above may have left an even bigger one.
 
… No one who has their entire world view uprooted with nothing left in such an extreme manor with have the same confidence as before. That would literally be impossible.
 
You never know, crazier things have happened.  
Except, y’know, HER AGE. You are separating Cozy from other children just because of her affinity for intelligent evil, when the fact that she’s the same age as her peers remains unchanged, the fact that she is still in her formulative years remains unchanged.
 
Other than her age, mind you. Cozy is a foal. That is obvious and will never change. However, just because she is a child does not mean that she is either like others her age, or that she is inresponsible for her own actions. Why assume that Cozy isn’t the exception to the rule, if the opposite was never hinted at (apart from a certain scene)?
 
And even in the real world, being a child can only excuse so much, some can even go to prison in certain place depending of the severity and intent of the crime. Cozy certainly surpasses that line.
 
Do you like ignoring facts?
 
You seems to like making assumptions, so maybe I’m your antithesis.
 
..Only after realizing all her current actions leads to a no win apocalypse.
 
*Only after realizing the severity of her actions (not in the “entire world ending” scale, mind you)  
… Such a thing never happened to Cozy…
 
… Who also doesn’t have that type of worldview at all, keep being hostile after being defeated and seeking for power, and would probably reject/ignore any other attempts at saving after she was given the option to explain herself or have another chance.  
[bq=”CronoM”]
… and for all the authorities of Equestria would now(hypothetically, since Pinkie admitted to Maud they hid her crimes from most people), Starlight could easily relapse into her old habits…[\bq]
Except she has never shown any sign she would, other than maybe misguided attempts at solving her problems with magic, and thoses weren’t for evil, even.
Cozy, on the other hand, keep being hostile even after being busted. THAT is a sign she could very easily relapse.
… Its why we have punishments for adults who commit crimes. We don’t have fortune teller balls that tell us if a terrorist will never commit a crime again.
Technically, they do have thoses in Equestria
But Starlight didn’t need to be punished if the authority deciding her punishment didn’t want to or thought she deserved it. Could others disagree? Certainly. But that was her decision.
And that’s the whole problem. It IS just you. The ability for sadism as a child does not guarantee one could not receive and grow from well done therapy. You are making the braindead assumption that she is “PURE EVIL” and that in no possible timeline could she have been given proper treatment and received some redemption.
You are SO fixated on the idea that she couldn’t turn out any other way its become a derangement symptom for you.
Say hello to AC97 and gingerninja666 (and some others).
Also, “Brain dead”.
Not, it’s not braindead, Cozy Glow being a unreformable psychopath is what is being demonstrated by the show itself, it’s a valid conclusion.
And this isn’t about the possibility of Cozy turning out any other way. It’s about the risks of doing so and whether it would be worthy despite them.
Let’s assume that Cozy has a marginal possibility that she could turn good or a reason for doing evil things that isn’t completely malicious. Okay. So what? How does that excuse what she did and obligates Twilight to take on that risk? Expecialy after giving her the chance once?
Hard? Sure. No redemption is easy But you keep on presenting it as a foregone conclusion that its impossible.
Because the other alternative is more trouble that it is worth and probably mirrors a similar argument that could be made about Chrysalis and Tirek
We can have that argument if you wish, though.
… But we aren’t talking about the ease to villainize them in a cartoonish sense, we are talking about whether her reformation could of been handled if it wasn’t for the many lazy missteps.
That’s weird. I though we were talking about a cartoon. Maybe I on the wrong site.
But still, if the writers decided not reform Cozy, that’s not a misstep unless if the alternative could be much more interesting/preferable or it is a necessity for the story to work. Now, giving Cozy a backstory or redemption could be interesting, but it is not needed because that’s not the story being told.
Now, your hateboner for the writers and the recent seasons probably went buzzing during that last statement, but leave that aside from now. We are not talking about them, but Cozy Glow And her shenanigans.
THAT is one of the most stupid things I’ve ever read. Your creating entire timelines where your past and connections are completely stolen from you even if you don’t start an apocalypse. Everything you’ve built in your life is either warped or gone if your stuck there. Of course its evil.
That’s not what I was referring to, but never mind.
Anyway, she was horrified with what she did once she realize how wrong she was. It is an evil thing to do? Yes. Was Starlight herself evil for doing? Not exactly. After all, she didn’t know, in complete detail, how horrible what she did actually was. She didn’t know how important Twilight and her friends are, and, as stated above, that by itself is one of the less evil things done by antagonists in this show. Needlessly over the top? Yes. Completely and unredemably evil? Not so much.
Now, don’t get me wrong, Starlight was being horrible and her revenge was in no way right or acceptable, but that’s all there is to it. You are overthinking it and bring meanings to her actions that aren’t there unless you ignore other aspects of Starlight and the show itself. The same applies to Cozy, you are bringing things that don’t belong in regards to the decision of not reforming her. Other than her age, mind you.
Egil
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@Philweasel  
What pisses me off is that the one who fully admitted they were wrong and was willing to accept any punishment the main 6 might have in store, is somehow worse than the one who is utterly remorseless and has zero interest in being good. I feel like the fake outrage only exists because she is a child. Otherwise…nah, there’d still be screeching.
gingerninja666
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

Kaze ni Nare
@Egil
 
And based on the metaphor provided by Zecora (who’s presented as the authority on how time travel works for the purposes of the episode), the alternate futures likely didn’t persist once the situation was resolved.
 
She compared changing time to diverting a river. Where a split is formed at the position where an action changes the past. If you stop that action from changing the past, then the river would return to its normal flow, and any splits would run out of water to feed them.
CronoM

@Egil  
It’s not that her chances of reformation were higher, they WERE lower then most except Tirek and Chrysalis and a few others, but the attempts and avenues to reform given to her were also some the lowest ever given. They presented Cozy Glow as a “spawn of Satan” esque character, which is fine in some shows, but very out of place in a show about friendship and reformation.
 
Up to a point, her sentences should have been lighter and handled with more expert counseling then dealing with Chrysalis and Tirek. Yes, because she’s a child. She is still in her formulative years, and writing her off as an irredeemable spawn or Satan character is just irresponsible for a reformation show.
 
But as I said, to a point. As her crimes grew too numerous and her actual threat to Equestria grew, those two factor’s combined, less amnesty should be given.
 
While I don’t completely agree with the petrification thing, and I definitely think they botched actual efforts to reform her when they threw her in Tartarus, I do agree that regardless of all the mistakes on the heroes fault in dealing with her before her crimes grew too big, she should share the same fate as Chrsalis and Tirek, whatever that may be in,such a theory. (Some have suggested complete power removal and exile)
 
 
@Star Seeker  
Wow, that’s a whole lot of backpedaling and half way excuses you got in that reply.
 
Yes, you like assumptions and lack of effort, and I like facts and effort, whether they succeed or not, effort should be done to help children more then adults. We are antithesis of each other. Formulative years and good therapy are not to be underestimated.
 
I actually don’t mind Spawn of Satan type characters in other shows, but after Diamond Tiara got reformed, it came across as cheap and out of place. And sending her to Tartarus just felt really weird, it isn’t exactly a normal locked ward for troubled children, her roommate is the devil. Whether she showed signs of repentance immediately or potentially in the future after giving her time to reflect, does roommating her with a muscle obsessed Satan sound like even a remotely good idea?
gingerninja666
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

Kaze ni Nare
@Terminal Red
 
Discussions about this stuff tend to bring up interesting philosophical points about the importance of Mens Rea in a criminal.
 
Because I really think that Cozy and Starlight both had very different mind sets that ledto their evil actions.
 
Starlight thought she was helping people. Cozy didn’t care. Starlight’s equestria-shaking actions were unintentional. Cozy’s were.
 
Cozy was trying to destabilize the entire social order of Equestria to create an environment in which she could excel and take over. Ocellus implies that Cozy was taking advantage of the fear induced by Equestria’s waning magic to strengthen her position. That’s textbook terrorism. Starlight was a terrorist in her first appearance. She kidnapped Twilight and was trying to subvert her authority to spread her ideology. Her time shenanagains though weren’t done for any political reason. It’s a potential motive, but despite being a ranty sunofa bitch in that episode, she never mentions it. She never mentions that changing Twilight’s past would make it easier to spread her message. It doesn’t seem like she’s changing Twilight’s past to remove Twilight as a factor in the present. All she ever talks about is getting even with Twilight for apparently ruining Starlight’s work and taking away the place where she was happy. She came into HER village and messed with HER life in Starlight’s opinion. It was straight up vengeance.
 
It’s a different mental state for each of them. Both evil, but I can easily see them being handled in different ways.
 
Honestly, I think Twilight saw more to grab onto with Starlight. Generally, when Twilight sees an opening, she seizes it. When she saw Stygian struggling inside the Pony of Shadows, she instantly leapt into it. When she saw that Trixie was genuinely hurt by losing Starlight, all her animosity towards her vanished in an instant. Cozy never really gave Twilight that kind of opening. People are suggesting that she should’ve worked to make one, and honestly, that might be true. But it’s also something Twilight has never really done before.
 
Twilight already knew that Starlight thought her actions were good. She also knew that Starlight’s wrath was directed specifically at her out of a desire for revenge. The selfless woman even had the gall to apologize for ruining Starlight’s village. I think on some level Twilight always thought Star was capable of turning good. She expressed a cautious hope about it at the end of The Cutie Map.
 
A horribly misguided desire to do good. Anger at being hurt. Even when these things are channeled towards doing horribly bad things, they’re at least emotions that Twilight can probably understand. There’s a logical train that, since Starlight thought she was helping people most of the time, then she probably didn’t want to vindictively hurt anyone beyond the people who’ve already hurt her. So, if you can definitely show her that she IS hurting people who are completely unconnected, that might appeal to whatever standards she has. Cozy’s mindset was completely different. She wanted power just because, and her plan all along involved hurting the entire country through terror for her own personal benefit. Then she laughed at an opening to explain herself and provide more information. You’d need a concentrated effort to pry anything deeper than that out of Cozy.
 
Again, I’m not saying they couldn’t have tried harder with Cozy, but I do think that Twilight found it easier to reach out to Starlight rather than Cozy because of their respective motivations.
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I still believe this is fair. Just that one simple word illustrates the ability for self reflection that is near essential for any successful redemption. Why should Twilight bother otherwise? She’s got a dozen villains to reform who do feel a tiny bit guilty about trying to commit genocide.
Star Seeker

Annoying fan has arrived
@CronoM  
Excuses? Really, now.
 
I’m not excusing anything Starlight did, they’re wrong, no denying that, but she isn’t as evil as you are trying to make her look like.
 
And I like effort. It can be used for amazing things in real life. Running after dreams, building a happy lifestyle, opening you horizons, etc. And I equally love it in fiction. It can be used to say nice and strong messages or engaging stories.
 
But, like anything else, it can be misused, misguided, put in the wrong direction or just fail outright. You can still do it, of course, effort is generally something to be admired. But if you can clearly see that it could bring more harm or risks than satisfaction, then just don’t do it. Cozy’s case is exactly this. While children deserve to have more care put into them, she is an exception. If reforming her is clearly not worth it or even safe, there is nothing wrong with not going through with it. Twilight tried once, but it didn’t work,she got spitted in face. She doesn’t need to beat on a dead horse.
 
Also, I believe a lot of you arguments are assumptions or non-existent meaning brought to aspects of the show that you hate as well. You clearly have a personal bias with this topic that you acussed another user here of having. At least what I’m saying is using mostly the show itself with few strings attached.
 
And why does Diamond’s reformation cheapens the punishment that Cozy got? Because they’re both child antagonists? DT wasn’t even evil, just a jerk, a certain mockery of disabilities ( with an agenda) maybe being the most evil thing she did. Cozy on the other hands is unquestionably and over the top evil. She and DT are completely different. And DT’s reformation served a purpose for the story (CMC’S Cutie Marks), what purpose would Cozy’s backstory serve in the story that was being told?
 
Also, MLP is a show about friendship that has antagonists reforming in it. That doesn’t mean that every antagonist should be reformed or even that the show itself should categorized as a “reformation” show just because it happens with frequency. A message that you can’t “reform” or befriend every person you come across is fine, especially for this type of show, it’s something you have to accept eventually.
 
And thought I don’t agree with them, I know there are people who outraged when SU didn’t go that route.
ArmadilloEater

Administrator
French Taunter
@Star Seeker  
@CronoM  
Hi, could you two chill out a bit pretty please? There’s a point where healthy, good spirited discussion turns into a whirlwind of chaos and passive aggressiveness, and you two are well into that phase.
AC97
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@gingerninja666
 
That also leads to another observation: Cozy Glow, Chrysalis, and Tirek are terrorists, aren’t they? They destabilized Equestria for the sake of their power hunger and revenge, and this speech of theirs sums it up.
 
Lord Tirek: Didn’t you all notice something was wrong in Equestria? We’ve been busy.
Queen Chrysalis: A whisper here, a rumor there…
Lord Tirek: Destroy some crops, cause some damage…
Cozy Glow: Turn pony against pony…
Queen Chrysalis: Until your whole kingdom is on edge, waiting for just one tiny thing to push them over the brink!
Lord Tirek: There’s no backup friends or rainbow magic to save you now!
Cozy Glow: Golly, I think it’s time for some redecorating!
 
.  
.  
.
 
Queen Chrysalis: You know what’s stronger than friendship, Twilight? Fear!
Twilight Sparkle: Aah!
[shatter!]
Lord Tirek: ‘Cause when you have to protect yourself, you don’t have time for anypony else.
Cozy Glow: Too bad you never taught that in school!
 
(What I find notable about that is how you could probably hear Sombra saying that, about fear, which I think is a good demonstration of how much of a lost cause she is, because her mindset is quite similar to his, and well… see what happened twice to him)
 
Honestly, I think Twilight saw more to grab onto with Starlight. Generally, when Twilight sees an opening, she seizes it. When she saw Stygian struggling inside the Pony of Shadows, she instantly leapt into it. When she saw that Trixie was genuinely hurt by losing Starlight, all her animosity towards her vanished in an instant. Cozy never really gave Twilight that kind of opening. People are suggesting that she should’ve worked to make one, and honestly, that might be true. But it’s also something Twilight has never really done before.
 
I mean, hell, the one who’s arguably done such a thing is Fluttershy, like say, with Discord. And Discord… was a hard-fought success, for a long time, lol. I mean, dang Celestia, it was a decent idea to have him stop being an enemy that can break out of stone and actively try to wreak havoc 24/7, but…
 
(I’m not gonna demonize him and say he didn’t change though, because both S9 two-parters show a drastic contrast to his S2 mindset)
 
But anyway, that is probably true about Starlight. Twilight actually saw something she could probably work with. Chrysalis, Cozy Glow, and Tirek have shown her no deep-seated desires she can work with, that could give them an emotional capacity to reform, by contrast.
 
Cozy Glow and Tirek aren’t really different in their core mindsets, cuteness facade and immaturity aside.
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Okay, I guess.
The Diamond Dogs deserved another episode. Hopefully, one where the tables were reversed and the ponies needed their help really bad, so they had to be extra nice with them while praying the dogs wouldn’t notice their advantage and try to abuse it for all what’s worth.
Philweasel
Equality - In our state, we do not stand out.

Right About Everything
@Background Pony #70FA  
Nah. I despise the guy, and still admit that he has had plenty of entertaining episodes and a interesting character arc. It helps that’s he’s much more likable in the comics.
 
I think part of my frustration with him isn’t his fault, and more the fault of the “Discord did nothing wrong!” guys also being “Starlight should burn in hell” guys, which is some truly bizarre moral standards.
AC97
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@Background Pony #70FA
 
Nah, I’m perfectly fine with him as a character.
 
I just think it’s just worth noting that Twilight’s idea with Starlight caused noticeably less trouble in the long run than Celestia’s idea with reforming Discord, because Starlight has never betrayed them (S4), or unintentionally given a trio of psychopaths a leash too loose in the course of making Twilight strong. Still, it did work out. We don’t have any real reason to believe he was doing anything in S9 because he wanted to usurp everyone, and Twilight’s strong, beyond his expectations, because they prevailed after it went wrong.
 
@Philweasel
 
I don’t get that mindset either. I’m fine with both of them as characters, fine with them reforming. They’re more interesting to me than Sunset, who you’d almost have to invent character flaws, for her to be compelling.
 
I kinda wish Discord could’ve had an extra episode or two after the last two parter, so we could’ve had him being on the pleasant side, outside of those little cameos after the timeskip, y’know?
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@AC97  
Reforming Starlight went by more smoothly than reforming Discord, even with her 1 main relapse. He gave more push-back and was far more willing to intentionally piss others off.
Latecomer

@CronoM  
DOn’t forget the totally unanswered question of how she was communicating with him. I mean, even if your only goal is “she never breaks out”, Tartarus is arguably suboptimal.
 
 
@gingerninja666  
This makes a lot of sense. Redeeming Starlight was easier. Redeeming Cozy would be a lot harder, even if she’s the easiest of the Trio. Maybe even impossible. But it was worth a shot.
 
 
 
 
@Background Pony #70FA  
I’m pretty sure he has plenty of fans. Ones who like all his appearances might be a bit rarer, though.
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