Unpopular opinion time

Mr.Myoozik

Music Connoisseur

@DanielTepesKraus
The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 is basically an episode about marketing do’s and don’ts. You can play in a high school business class.

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Edited 5 years ago because: Too big of a number

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Vivace

“ShimSham my GlimGlams”

@ILoveMyoozik
It’s the tale of John Henry with a twist.

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Dustcan

Dogs

The Flim Flams wouldn’t be good conmen if they were obvious about it.

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Jarkes

GOKAAAAI... SILVER!

@Dustcan

They kind of ARE, though.

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GenericArchangel

Moderator

Free the Tantabus

@DanielTepesKraus
They lacked integrity, which in an orange apple background pony episode makes you evil. And they were jerks, when they started losing they started cheating, and tried to pass it off as a superior product.

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DanielTepesKraus

will return

@ILoveMyoozik
@Vivace
i was never fond of the symbolism of john henry, to be honest. what, exactly, are we supposed to learn from mr. henry? kill yourself for the sake of pride? work your employees to death rather than using machinery to improve working conditions? work harder rather than smarter? use ineffective tools even when better alternatives exist? what a senseless waste of human life. i understand he’s supposed to be a folk hero, but jack from jack and the beanstalk is supposed to be a “hero” and what he basically did was break into an innocent man’s home, rob him, and eventually kill him.

@GenericArchangel
i disagree that them turning down the quality was “cheating”, not only on the grounds that there was simply no rule against it, but also that if changing your means of production mid-competition was “cheating” then applejack already cheated in an identical manner by increasing her work force from four to nine workers.

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Vivace

“ShimSham my GlimGlams”

@DanielTepesKraus
Imagine if JH died having lost the steel-driving race.

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DanielTepesKraus

will return

@Vivace
as far as i’m concerned he did lose. the “machine” he tried to best was basically a jackhammer. the idea of using them to ease labor took off like wildfire anyways, as all he basically proved was you’re better off using the goddamned jackhammer.

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Background Pony #0947

Maud and Starlight make a good pair.

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Background Pony #F4B2

@DanielTepesKraus

the only “crooked” thing they did was turn down the quality of their machine to speed it up to win the competition, which i honestly don’t see as all that different than applejack tripling her work force mid-competition to produce far more cider than her method could ever normally produce. you could even argue that, as applejack had to change her method to beat flim and flam’s, the competition proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that flim and flam’s was legitimately superior.

But the point was that Applejack’s side didn’t change their method. No one that joined their side cut corners or did things any differently than the Apples did. They were held to the same high standards and work necessary to maintain the quality of the cider being produced. Flim and Flam, facing a similar situation, are the ones who changed how their cider was made. They are the ones who opted to forgo effort in favor of a shoddy product. And considering that part of Flim and Flam’s sales pitch from the get go had included a promise that their cider would be just as top notch as the Apple family’s was, their method is clearly the actual inferior one.

@DanielTepesKraus

they were stupid in that they didn’t try to offer a better deal, but so was applejack for not trying to negotiate a better deal. they goaded the apples into competing but they held no leverage whatsoever so really it was apples’ great flaming ego that’s to blame for them being pulled into that challenge

I agree, it was bad form to offer a deal that poor. But as far as negotiating and leverage is concerned, you’re forgetting something.

Applejack: “Cider sales keep our business afloat through the winter. We’d lose Sweet Apple Acres if we agreed to this.”
Flim and Flam: “So? What’ll it be?”
Big McIntosh: “No deal.”
Flim: “Hmph. Very well. If you refuse our generous offer to be partners, then we’ll just have to be competitors.”

Applejack made it very clear in the episode that they depended heavily on the sale of their cider. They couldn’t afford to take the deal, or to really have them as competition. And Flim and Flam never really negotiated in good faith either. Their offer to the Apple family was basically to either to take a pittance they literally couldn’t afford to accept, or get driven into bankruptcy. Given those options, it’s not surprising that they accepted the competition for the chance to get those two to leave. It might actually have been the best move they had available.

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DanielTepesKraus

will return

@Background Pony #33E3
actually i firmly disagree with that first point. adding extra employees is absolutely changing their method, as their “method” is their family of four making cider. not to mention, flim and flam dropping their quality was an act of stupidity on their part rather than a reflection of their method being inferior. only by adding five extra players and pushing themselves to the brink of collapse was the apple method even able to come close to matching the flim flam method operating at a normal comfortable speed. unless those five extras are going to continue to work the farm and they’re all going to continue working at that hectic pace, the flim flam method is an objectively superior means of producing cider.

as for that second part, the big key thing is flim and flam had zero leverage. unless they were going to plant their own ginormous apple farm or pay to bring in thousands upon thousands of apples to compete, they weren’t going to be able to compete. not to mention, if they were going to go to all that effort, why would they compete at all? they could do all that in a town without a cider market and corner it themselves with zero competition. the reason they didn’t is they knew it was unviable: they needed applejack’s farm a lot more than applejack needed them and they knew it. thing is, they also saw applejack and her family as arrogant short-sighted buffoons who they could bait into collapsing so they could swoop in and just take what was left for themselves… which nearly worked without a hitch. if applejack had even a modicum of business or common sense, she could have easily talked them into taking the 25% share. the conversation basically would have gone like this:

Flim: “Hmph. Very well. If you refuse our generous offer to be partners, then we’ll just have to be competitors.”
applejack: “okay, have fun with that. you wanna talk a better deal you know where to find us.”
flam: “…shit”

basically the entire “conflict” of the cider episode in a nutshell:
full

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Mr.Myoozik

Music Connoisseur

@DanielTepesKraus
I don’t think the John Henry comparison is fair either, but like I said, the episode unintentionally became a lesson about business and marketing.

@Background Pony #B4E1
I’d like to see both together. _{Mostly as an excuse to see Starlight more. >__>}

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GenericArchangel

Moderator

Free the Tantabus

@DanielTepesKraus
As I said, the point was honesty. They cut corners and therefore compromised their integrity in the name of greed, while the Apples didn’t. Honesty=Integrity, and honest orange apple horse is the Element of Honesty, and it’s her episode, so…

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Edited 5 years ago because: I can grammar. Sometimes.

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Lord WyrmSpawN

Lingering Wyvern

@DanielTepesKraus
Also, i swear someone reasoned that 25% would still be still be a fine cut if the machine maximized profit.

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Background Pony #F4B2

@DanielTepesKraus

@Background Pony #33E3
actually i firmly disagree with that first point. adding extra employees is absolutely changing their method, as their “method” is their family of four making cider.

Except they make it clear right from the start that what sets their cider apart is their dedication to crafting a quality product.

Granny Smith: I guarantee that what you have there won’t compare. For the very most important ingredient, can’t be added or done expedient. And it’s quality, friends, Apple Acres’ quality and care!”

Family plays a part in it, obviously, because it’s very personal to them to get it done right. But so long as the others they bring in have that same goal, and that same determination to do the job right, then the method hasn’t actually changed.

Besides, if family is really such a sticking point, it still comes out the same way. Twilight and the others are honorary members, and are clearly seen as such by Applejack.

Applejack: “I think I’d love to have the rest of my family helpin’ out.”

@DanielTepesKraus

@Background Pony #33E3
as for that second part, the big key thing is flim and flam had zero leverage. unless they were going to plant their own ginormous apple farm or pay to bring in thousands upon thousands of apples to compete, they weren’t going to be able to compete.

Except they clearly felt they could, and even said they’d find more apples elsewhere.

Flim: “Don’t worry, everypony, there are plenty of apples in Equestria. We’ll find some others and make more cider than all of Ponyville can drink!”

And sure, it might have been a bluff, but there’s every possibility it wasn’t either. If getting ownership of Sweet Apple Acres is actually the thing that brought them to Ponyville in the first place, they would undoubtedly have planned either to ship in enough apples to follow through on their comment (a costly option, but one that stood to make them far more than they’d likely have had to spend), or known somewhere else they could get enough apples to cover the amount of cider they needed. The fact that the deal Flim and Flam offered is so one sided and that they were so quick to declare themselves competitors after it was (rightfully) rejected seems indicative of that as well.

And that’s where I think we fundamentally disagree. If Flim and Flam actually came to Ponyville to pursue a mutually beneficial business arrangement, then Applejack and her family did kind of create their own problem there. But if you work on the basis that those two are consummate con artists who never intended for a moment to offer or accept a better deal, and knew that taking enough of Applejack’s customers would make her family’s valuable property easy to purchase, then clearly the competition to remove them for good was the only option available to them at that time. And given what we’ve seen of Flim and Flam over all the other seasons, I think it’s obvious which of those two scenarios is the more likely to be true.

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Background Pony #7EE3

The Golden Oak Library getting destroyed wasn’t all that sad.

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Mikey

Moderator

Ayriana

@Background Pony #FC35

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Josh103

@Background Pony #FC35
I agree.

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GenericArchangel

Moderator

Free the Tantabus

@Background Pony #FC35
It would’ve been sadder if they took the time to make it clear beforehand how much Twi cared for the library, and a brief focus on her being sad when it was destroyed. As is, I agree- it wasn’t all that sad.

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Penguin Dragneel

The Latest Tax Write-Off

@Background Pony #FC35
I more or less laughed at the people who thought Hasbro would reverse the decision.

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Jarkes

GOKAAAAI... SILVER!

@Background Pony #FC35

It WOULD have been sad and shocking if it hadn’t been the first shot of the season 4 finale promo.

I mean, it was still sad and shocking, but having it spoiled like that kind of dampened the intended emotional reaction.

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Mikey

Moderator

Ayriana

@Jarkes
I dunno, it was still sad. Twilight losing her home she first had when she moved to ponyville? And then it gets replaced by a gaudy and distracting toy bait thing.

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