Background Pony #5203
About Ahuizotl being the good guy vs the 800 years heat thing: He just knew the population of ponykind was decreasing, so he thought 800 years of unrelenting heat would help with that ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Season 9 Discussion Thread [NO SPOILERS, DF airings only]
DerpyFast 
@Spinny
To get just a bit pretentious, the mark of an educated mind is the willingness to entertain an idea without having to accept it. So instead of just rejecting the idea, I entertained it. Everyone is the hero of their own story, so what if that were the case for Ahuizotl? Here was my thought process:
Just before I wrote my review, I saw someone mention the 800 years of heat. So I thought “Hmm, that’s a good point. I’d better look into it.” So I did, and sure enough, he said that. Then I remembered that this is the climate that real jungles have anyways, and that artificially controlling the climate has been a recurring idea since the very beginning of the show. Given that interpretation, performing a ceremony that would maintain the climate would be consistent with the idea that he’s the guardian of the jungle. All of the pieces fit so far.
In real life, there are places where you will get shot if you try to break into them. Military bases, nuclear power plants, and the homes and offices of government officials, to name a few. There are armed guards, and these guards have to make judgement calls on whether they should shoot to kill.
The fact that the treasures are protected by monsters and deadly traps suggests that someone would rather the treasures not be stolen. Daring Do isn’t actually entitled to take them. In fact, I did some digging, and the real-life events that the Adventurer Archaeologist tropes are based on aren’t exactly the most wholesome things in the world. Now, I’m not going to tell writers what tropes they are or aren’t allowed to use, and there’s certainly a place for romanticism. By considering a different position, it wasn’t hard at all to reinterpret the events of Daring Don’t and how they relate to Daring Do’s character.
I changed my mind. I’m willing to set aside the theory that the ceremony is about climate control. When you consider the fact that Daring Do has written multiple books about the treasures she’s taken, and you entertain the idea that protecting them is Ahuizotl’s job; yeah, I think given his position, Ahuizotl would be justified in trying to kill Daring Do. Whether I think it’s moral or not is a different question.
And that’s how you wind up with a one-dimensional hero that’s not completely righteous, and a one-dimensional villain that’s not a complete monster. The more I thought about it, the less black-and-white the whole situation seemed. Whether you like the interpretation or not, the episode makes its point effectively.
@ILoveMyoozik
It’s been a long time since an episode has inspired this level of debate.
To get just a bit pretentious, the mark of an educated mind is the willingness to entertain an idea without having to accept it. So instead of just rejecting the idea, I entertained it. Everyone is the hero of their own story, so what if that were the case for Ahuizotl? Here was my thought process:
Just before I wrote my review, I saw someone mention the 800 years of heat. So I thought “Hmm, that’s a good point. I’d better look into it.” So I did, and sure enough, he said that. Then I remembered that this is the climate that real jungles have anyways, and that artificially controlling the climate has been a recurring idea since the very beginning of the show. Given that interpretation, performing a ceremony that would maintain the climate would be consistent with the idea that he’s the guardian of the jungle. All of the pieces fit so far.
In real life, there are places where you will get shot if you try to break into them. Military bases, nuclear power plants, and the homes and offices of government officials, to name a few. There are armed guards, and these guards have to make judgement calls on whether they should shoot to kill.
The fact that the treasures are protected by monsters and deadly traps suggests that someone would rather the treasures not be stolen. Daring Do isn’t actually entitled to take them. In fact, I did some digging, and the real-life events that the Adventurer Archaeologist tropes are based on aren’t exactly the most wholesome things in the world. Now, I’m not going to tell writers what tropes they are or aren’t allowed to use, and there’s certainly a place for romanticism. By considering a different position, it wasn’t hard at all to reinterpret the events of Daring Don’t and how they relate to Daring Do’s character.
I changed my mind. I’m willing to set aside the theory that the ceremony is about climate control. When you consider the fact that Daring Do has written multiple books about the treasures she’s taken, and you entertain the idea that protecting them is Ahuizotl’s job; yeah, I think given his position, Ahuizotl would be justified in trying to kill Daring Do. Whether I think it’s moral or not is a different question.
And that’s how you wind up with a one-dimensional hero that’s not completely righteous, and a one-dimensional villain that’s not a complete monster. The more I thought about it, the less black-and-white the whole situation seemed. Whether you like the interpretation or not, the episode makes its point effectively.
@ILoveMyoozik
It’s been a long time since an episode has inspired this level of debate.
GenericArchangel 
Moderator
Free the Tantabus
I’m shocked by all this debate. I think of it like this: Caballeron uses bad means to a bad end, Ahuizotl uses bad means to a good end, and Daring Do uses good means to a “bad” end (she thinks it’s good). Who’s right? Depends on who you ask. I don’t think ends always justify the means, but Ahuizotl has a right to defend these artifacts as either his property or as important cultural as pieces. His methods are extreme- he says so himself- but so are his adversaries.
Whether Daring Do was bad is a more interesting question. She stole to prevent these objects from falling into Cabaleron’s hands, but all he wanted to do was sell them. Does that make her better than him? How did they first meet? The episode alludes to her starting their feud, with Cabaleron originally being a real archaeologist. Is he lying? What if he is? What if he’s not? How much does her believing what she’s doing is right matter?
For what it’s worth, I don’t think she’s a bad person, she just lacks perspective. If everyone had just stopped to talk, she’d end up working with Ahuizotl against the evil professor. But she didn’t, hence the following events.
Whether Daring Do was bad is a more interesting question. She stole to prevent these objects from falling into Cabaleron’s hands, but all he wanted to do was sell them. Does that make her better than him? How did they first meet? The episode alludes to her starting their feud, with Cabaleron originally being a real archaeologist. Is he lying? What if he is? What if he’s not? How much does her believing what she’s doing is right matter?
For what it’s worth, I don’t think she’s a bad person, she just lacks perspective. If everyone had just stopped to talk, she’d end up working with Ahuizotl against the evil professor. But she didn’t, hence the following events.
AWGear 
Let’s put it to the perspective. It’s like having Doctor Fate come in and ultimately defeat Joker instead of Batman doing so. Fluttershy was barely even in “Daring Don’t” and that was her only involvement with this story arc. Those wasn’t “her” villians to defeat or redeem. She did manage to redeem Angel, who was her “antagonist”. Garble, Cabbaleron and Auizothl weren’t Fluttershy’s antagonists and thus shouldn’t be redeemed by her. Instead of “properly useing Fluttershy’s srong points”, you are just shoe-horning her into stories in which they have no place to be in, to resolve the issue for the protagonist of said story.
What “noble intentions”? He was trying to murder someone just because she stole something from him. He did that to save his own ass because otherwise he would be in trouble.
Also, no. It’s not it’s own “natural state”. There is no reason to think so. If it was the “natural state” of the jungle, you’d think that Fluttershy (who was in the bloody episode) would mentoin that something doesn’t seem right. Nothing in Daring Don’t suggested that the ring always should have been in the temple. Auizothl tryied to overheat the jungle, and there is no evidence to prove this statement wrong. He tried to kill ponies and animals, for no reason.
You seriously are going to compare Beast to Auizothl? One was a tragic protagonist in his first appearance (litterally first few minutes of the movie) and the other was one-note villian (his every appearance untill now). I guess I’m not the one who should rewatch that movie.
@Background Pony #1370
Nothing. But for a basic motivation to work, character has to have something else going for them too.
Look at Deathstroke/Deadshot from DC Comics or Ashe from Overwatch. Hell, even Tony Montana from Scareface or anyone from the Payday Gang from Payday. They all have a simple motive of “get rich”, but they also have other things that make people like them. Ethier they are shown as proffesionals in what they do, being commendable for thier skill, or they have a motive for getting the money.
In Cabbaleron’s case:
The Devil's Advocate
Daring Do isn’t the only one with a perspective, & Fluttershy sees this. Being a more casual fan than Rainbow Dash, on top of being the element of kindness, allows her to be more immediately receptive of nuance and willing to consider others’ stances.
Let’s put it to the perspective. It’s like having Doctor Fate come in and ultimately defeat Joker instead of Batman doing so. Fluttershy was barely even in “Daring Don’t” and that was her only involvement with this story arc. Those wasn’t “her” villians to defeat or redeem. She did manage to redeem Angel, who was her “antagonist”. Garble, Cabbaleron and Auizothl weren’t Fluttershy’s antagonists and thus shouldn’t be redeemed by her. Instead of “properly useing Fluttershy’s srong points”, you are just shoe-horning her into stories in which they have no place to be in, to resolve the issue for the protagonist of said story.
He’s violent and ferocious, so he’s not a hero, but the fact that his base intention is noble keeps him from being a total villain. Neither side mutually excludes the other unless you have no sense for nuance and resort to dumbing down. No, he wasn’t trying to destroy the valley when unrelenting & unsweltering heat is its standard. The episode’s message is not to fear reevaluating your perceptions, and this sounds like a real reluctance to do so.
What “noble intentions”? He was trying to murder someone just because she stole something from him. He did that to save his own ass because otherwise he would be in trouble.
Also, no. It’s not it’s own “natural state”. There is no reason to think so. If it was the “natural state” of the jungle, you’d think that Fluttershy (who was in the bloody episode) would mentoin that something doesn’t seem right. Nothing in Daring Don’t suggested that the ring always should have been in the temple. Auizothl tryied to overheat the jungle, and there is no evidence to prove this statement wrong. He tried to kill ponies and animals, for no reason.
Nah, can’t back that. And wow, man, you want the pony to be multidimensional while the guy who looks like a monster is a one-note monster in behavior? Maybe you should rewatch Beauty & the Beast.
You seriously are going to compare Beast to Auizothl? One was a tragic protagonist in his first appearance (litterally first few minutes of the movie) and the other was one-note villian (his every appearance untill now). I guess I’m not the one who should rewatch that movie.
@Background Pony #1370
What’s wrong with a basic motivation? In a way he’s a bit like Die Hard’s iconic villain Hans Gruber… ruthless, methodical, and good at covering his actual goals with carefully planned deceptions. Yet at the end of the day, he’s just a simple thief. He’s out to get rich and retire, and there doesn’t really need to be any more to it than that.
Nothing. But for a basic motivation to work, character has to have something else going for them too.
Look at Deathstroke/Deadshot from DC Comics or Ashe from Overwatch. Hell, even Tony Montana from Scareface or anyone from the Payday Gang from Payday. They all have a simple motive of “get rich”, but they also have other things that make people like them. Ethier they are shown as proffesionals in what they do, being commendable for thier skill, or they have a motive for getting the money.
In Cabbaleron’s case:
- He is shown to be incompetent at every occasion he appears in,
- He wants to get money just for the sake of being rich.
He lacks anything that would make him ethier respectable or relatable.
Vivace 
“ShimSham my GlimGlams”
Let’s put it to the perspective. It’s like having Doctor Fate come in and ultimately defeat Joker instead of Batman doing so. Fluttershy was barely even in “Daring Don’t” and that was her only involvement with this story arc. Those wasn’t “her” villians to defeat or redeem. She did manage to redeem Angel, who was her “antagonist”. Garble, Cabbaleron and Auizothl weren’t Fluttershy’s antagonists and thus shouldn’t be redeemed by her. Instead of “properly useing Fluttershy’s srong points”, you are just shoe-horning her into stories in which they have no place to be in, to resolve the issue for the protagonist of said story.
It’s called context. Fluttershy was given some focus in the episode, so I’m much more willing to accept her helping facilitate the denouement than if she resolved things immediately after showing up. “Her antagonists.” Dipper & Mabel Pines each helped fix up their sibling’s antagonist, & each time, it was completely satisfactory. If someone else gets involved in the affairs of the antagonist of someone they’re close to, it doesn’t feel as out of place for that someone else to fix the antagonist up.
What “noble intentions”? He was trying to murder someone just because she stole something from him. He did that to save his own ass because otherwise he would be in trouble.Also, no. It’s not it’s own “natural state”. There is no reason to think so. If it was the “natural state” of the jungle, you’d think that Fluttershy (who was in the bloody episode) would mentoin that something doesn’t seem right. Nothing in Daring Don’t suggested that the ring always should have been in the temple. Auizothl tryied to overheat the jungle, and there is no evidence to prove this statement wrong. He tried to kill ponies and animals, for no reason.
If someone trespasses on your property, there are cases where killing them is permitted. Ahuizotl is a temple guardian, & Daring Do was a trespasser. In any real-world capacity, he’d be blameless in offing her. And I said that unrelenting, sweltering heat, which apparently implies high humidity, is the standard, which is just observably true. 8 centuries of this won’t burn the area down thanks to this high humidity. He’s not turning the place into a desert. How is the set of rings not supposed to be there if there’s a nearby temple which Ahuizotl guards? His reason is obviously that unabated heat wave will dissuade adventuring ponies who have no real business being in the jungle. And, again, every pony living in the area actively aided his effort, so he clearly had high approval ratings to those who, unlike Daring Do, knew him well.
You seriously are going to compare Beast to Auizothl? One was a tragic protagonist in his first appearance (litterally first few minutes of the movie) and the other was one-note villian (his every appearance untill now). I guess I’m not the one who should rewatch that movie.
Yes, yes I am, & yes, yes you are. “Although he had everything his heart desired, the prince was spoiled, selfish, & unkind.” Immediately after this description, he adds on “inhospitable to strangers,” which, in 17th-18th century France, was considered an aberration of etiquette, at least in-universe. Yeah, at the start, he sounds like a real douchecannoe/cockwaffle protagonist. You know what’s funny? In the original tale of Beauty & the Beast, Prince Adam, as a beast, threatens to kill Belle’s father & his daughters unless he makes & keeps a promise to Adam. What spurs this on is that the beast spots the father taking a flower from the castle garden. Here, we see a beast, whom you’ve termed at this point a tragic protagonist, threaten to kill a trespasser, like Ahuizotl. Up until a certain point in the 1991 Disney movie, the beast looks & acts like a monster, but new situations/information arises that reveal he’s not such a one-note bad guy. Like Ahuizotl. You seem really opposed to reevaluation when new info casts old info in a different light.
Background Pony #0592
LOL @ comparing Beast to Ahuizotl.
The mental gymnastics on here are Olympic gold worthy.
The mental gymnastics on here are Olympic gold worthy.
Vivace
“ShimSham my GlimGlams”
@ILoveMyoozik
It’s a real mountain of text. Lots to climb up. I’d say break a leg, but that’s very possible when literally climbing a mountain, so…happy reading.
It’s a real mountain of text. Lots to climb up. I’d say break a leg, but that’s very possible when literally climbing a mountain, so…happy reading.
AWGear
The problem is that Fluttershy still has nothing to do with Daring Do arc. She was just thrown into this epsiode for no in-universe reason at all. And now they are retconing her to be interested in Daring Do. Which is something that went unmentoined for all 9 seasons up untill now. Hell, even if she would play more major role in Daring Don’t, but no. Fluttershy has no buisness with Daring do.
The example you gave is somewhat flawed too. To my (limited) knowlege about Gravity Falls, Dipper and Mabel are shown together in almost every episode. They are also sibblings. Fluttershy was never really seen with Daring Do and isn’t her relative. Thier stories are completly separated from eachother.
There is a diffrence between a murder in self defence, and murder with exceptional cruelty. No matter where, even if you took someone tresspassing into your basement, put them into a empty container and slowly drown them while they were concious and trying to get out, simple “he stole my thing” wouldn’t absolve you of being charged with murder. Also, jungle or a temple aren’t Auizothl’s property. They are a place where anypony can go.
And again, the fact that something is going wrong with the jungle due to the missing ring is never mentoined once in the “Daring Don’t”. In fact, if it was “for the better of the jungle”, why did Auizothl not ask politely for the bloody ring from the start. Why did he had to send dangerous cats at Daring Do. Why couldn’t he just bind her up (something he is shown to be pretty good at) and just EXPLAIN THE BLOODY SYTUATION TO HER.
Only when new info (Auizothl is a misunderstood hero saving the jungle) doesn’t make sense with what we already know (He tortures ponies for mere theft and wants to kill all life in the jungle).
The Devil's Advocate
It’s called context. Fluttershy was given some focus in the episode, so I’m much more willing to accept her helping facilitate the denouement than if she resolved things immediately after showing up. “Her antagonists.” Dipper & Mabel Pines each helped fix up their sibling’s antagonist, & each time, it was completely satisfactory. If someone else gets involved in the affairs of the antagonist of someone they’re close to, it doesn’t feel as out of place for that someone else to fix the antagonist up.
The problem is that Fluttershy still has nothing to do with Daring Do arc. She was just thrown into this epsiode for no in-universe reason at all. And now they are retconing her to be interested in Daring Do. Which is something that went unmentoined for all 9 seasons up untill now. Hell, even if she would play more major role in Daring Don’t, but no. Fluttershy has no buisness with Daring do.
The example you gave is somewhat flawed too. To my (limited) knowlege about Gravity Falls, Dipper and Mabel are shown together in almost every episode. They are also sibblings. Fluttershy was never really seen with Daring Do and isn’t her relative. Thier stories are completly separated from eachother.
If someone trespasses on your property, there are cases where killing them is permitted. Ahuizotl is a temple guardian, & Daring Do was a trespasser. In any real-world capacity, he’d be blameless in offing her. And I said that unrelenting, sweltering heat, which apparently implies high humidity, is the standard, which is just observably true. 8 centuries of this won’t burn the area down thanks to this high humidity. He’s not turning the place into a desert. How is the set of rings not supposed to be there if there’s a nearby temple which Ahuizotl guards? His reason is obviously that unabated heat wave will dissuade adventuring ponies who have no real business being in the jungle. And, again, every pony living in the area actively aided his effort, so he clearly had high approval ratings to those who, unlike Daring Do, knew him well.
There is a diffrence between a murder in self defence, and murder with exceptional cruelty. No matter where, even if you took someone tresspassing into your basement, put them into a empty container and slowly drown them while they were concious and trying to get out, simple “he stole my thing” wouldn’t absolve you of being charged with murder. Also, jungle or a temple aren’t Auizothl’s property. They are a place where anypony can go.
And again, the fact that something is going wrong with the jungle due to the missing ring is never mentoined once in the “Daring Don’t”. In fact, if it was “for the better of the jungle”, why did Auizothl not ask politely for the bloody ring from the start. Why did he had to send dangerous cats at Daring Do. Why couldn’t he just bind her up (something he is shown to be pretty good at) and just EXPLAIN THE BLOODY SYTUATION TO HER.
You seem really opposed to reevaluation when new info casts old info in a different light.
Only when new info (Auizothl is a misunderstood hero saving the jungle) doesn’t make sense with what we already know (He tortures ponies for mere theft and wants to kill all life in the jungle).
Surprise
Not everything needs to be shown, you know.
@AWGear
And what does that matter? In the previous Daring Do episode, Pinkie had as much to do with the arc as Fluttershy did up to now and that didn’t hurt that episode.
And what does that matter? In the previous Daring Do episode, Pinkie had as much to do with the arc as Fluttershy did up to now and that didn’t hurt that episode.
And now they are retconing her to be interested in Daring Do. Which is something that went unmentoined for all 9 seasons up untill now.
Not everything needs to be shown, you know.
Mr.Myoozik 
Music Connoisseur
On second though, i’m just gonna pussy out and not bother on these walls. Takes off climbing gear
rdibp 
Kerfuffle lover
I really wish I can hear some fair complaints about the show without it resulting in people insulting the new writers.
DerpyFast
“Why are we shooting at intruders when this is a public place anyone is allowed to enter? For that matter, why did we fill these public places with dangerous traps?”
“This ceremony will kill everything in the jungle, including us. Even if it doesn’t kill us, our home and food source will be destroyed. Why are we helping Ahuizotl do it?”
“We’re nameless minions. Only real characters are allowed to have motivations that make sense.”
“Why are we shooting at intruders when this is a public place anyone is allowed to enter? For that matter, why did we fill these public places with dangerous traps?”
“This ceremony will kill everything in the jungle, including us. Even if it doesn’t kill us, our home and food source will be destroyed. Why are we helping Ahuizotl do it?”
“We’re nameless minions. Only real characters are allowed to have motivations that make sense.”
AWGear
“Because we apparently find it too dificult to write Private Property, no entry on the entrance to the temple. Not like we could do the same thing to a forest or something. Fences don’t exist in this universe”
“Good question. Not like there exist cults which have self destructive tendencies just to make something they belive in, Auizothl in our case, happy”
“If only we were given a motivation, but I guess we’re just ment to be nameless minions”
The Devil's Advocate
“Why are we shooting at intruders when this is a public place anyone is allowed to enter? For that matter, why did we fill these public places with dangerous traps?”
“Because we apparently find it too dificult to write Private Property, no entry on the entrance to the temple. Not like we could do the same thing to a forest or something. Fences don’t exist in this universe”
“This ceremony will kill everything in the jungle, including us. Even if it doesn’t kill us, our home and food source will be destroyed. Why are we helping Ahuizotl do it?”
“Good question. Not like there exist cults which have self destructive tendencies just to make something they belive in, Auizothl in our case, happy”
“We’re nameless minions. Only real characters are allowed to have motivations that make sense.”
“If only we were given a motivation, but I guess we’re just ment to be nameless minions”
Mr.Myoozik
Music Connoisseur
@rdibp
Same, it’s always “writers this, writers that. They don’t watch the previous episodes, they’re incompetent” and all that crap.
Same, it’s always “writers this, writers that. They don’t watch the previous episodes, they’re incompetent” and all that crap.
AWGear
The Devil's Advocate
@DerpyFast
If you set up life threatning traps and shot to everone who gets close to your “unmarked” property, you are going to have a bad time as well.
If you set up life threatning traps and shot to everone who gets close to your “unmarked” property, you are going to have a bad time as well.
Vivace
“ShimSham my GlimGlams”
The problem is that Fluttershy still has nothing to do with Daring Do arc. She was just thrown into this epsiode for no in-universe reason at all. And now they are retconing her to be interested in Daring Do. Which is something that went unmentoined for all 9 seasons up untill now. Hell, even if she would play more major role in Daring Don’t, but no. Fluttershy has no buisness with Daring do.
I suppose I can admit that Twilight, a pre-established fan of Daring Do, would make sense being included, although it’s Fluttershy’s very outwardly projected empathy that got things resolved. And say it ain’t so! Fluttershy with a new interest? Heresy!
The example you gave is somewhat flawed too. To my (limited) knowlege about Gravity Falls, Dipper and Mabel are shown together in almost every episode. They are also sibblings. Fluttershy was never really seen with Daring Do and isn’t her relative. Thier stories are completly separated from eachother.
Each character’s interaction with the rival of their siblings was minimal before the episode where each made that rival more happy in life.
There is a diffrence between a murder in self defence, and murder with exceptional cruelty. No matter where, even if you took someone tresspassing into your basement, put them into a empty container and slowly drown them while they were concious and trying to get out, simple “he stole my thing” wouldn’t absolve you of being charged with murder. Also, jungle or a temple aren’t Auizothl’s property. They are a place where anypony can go.
They are his responsibility, so they’re under his jurisdiction, and from what we can tell, the Princesses either don’t know he’s there, have no jurisdiction, or they leave him to his duties without any interference. If he’s got a bunch of traps set up, and nopony’s bringing a lawsuit against him for it, since we’ve no knowledge of Equestrian law on this stuff, it’s safe to assume he’s in charge of who’s permitted there and how to handle trespassers. Ponies can’t/shouldn’t freely roam the place.
And again, the fact that something is going wrong with the jungle due to the missing ring is never mentoined once in the “Daring Don’t”. In fact, if it was “for the better of the jungle”, why did Auizothl not ask politely for the bloody ring from the start? Why did he had to send dangerous cats at Daring Do. Why couldn’t he just bind her up (something he is shown to be pretty good at) and just EXPLAIN THE BLOODY SYTUATION TO HER.
He’s most concerned with deterring trespassers & thieves, the jungle & temple’s problem, which, from his perspective, Daring Do was. His traps basically scream, “Do not trespass, under penalty of severe injury or death, at the hands of the traps or the guardian of the area. Seriously, whoever you are, fuck off.” Why should he suddenly break from a defining character trait toward somepony who has no real business there, whom he’s had to tangle with on multiple occasions prior for the same thing, making her a persistent pest he’s disinclined to try to reason with, & over whom he has a serious advantage?
Only when new info (Auizothl is a misunderstood hero saving the jungle) doesn’t make sense with what we already know (He tortures ponies for mere theft and wants to kill all life in the jungle).
The artifacts & talismans. Everything else is a peripheral concern. Intruders can get fucked, for all he cares. To his credit, he never bothered Daring Do when she was away from his zone.
Interested in advertising on Derpibooru? Click here for information!
Help fund the $15 daily operational cost of Derpibooru - support us financially!