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Pepsi_Al
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #FD2C: Welcome to The Internet, where walls of text are often posted in any debate.

Anyway, I thought I made it clear that, when I used NMM2, I was talking about NMR. (As if me mentioning that NMM2 was a nickname that was given to NMR by some Tropers wasn't a clear enough indication of that.) And I honestly don't know how you can say with such certainty that NMR is Rarity possessed by Shadowfright when, as shown even in images previously posted, the comic shows the two characters are clearly separate beings. As for Rarity actually being possessed by the same entity that turned Luna into NMM, her own appearance as NMR, the Mare in the Moon appearing on the moon's surface, and even the fact that NMR even refers to herself being defeated by the Mane 6 before, should be clear indicators of that fact.

And the only instance I recall of NMM even calling Celestia "sister" is only during the 2nd 1/2 of the Season 5 finale, and I do believe I said that was because demonic entities have a tendency to lie about the host's personality being the dominant personality. There's no other instance where she even uses "dear sister" to describe Celestia. Nightmare, as in the spirit that possessed both Luna and Rarity and turned them into their Nightmare forms, may think that it has a "right to rule," but it's not for the reasons you think. We don't when or how it started to get that mindset, but one can argue that mindset was put into practice even before either Luna or Celestia were born.

And assuming that Nightmare's host keeps most of his or her personality when possessed doesn't work because not only does that assume that the host wanted Nightmare in its body to begin with (and I do believe that I mentioned that the Season 4 premiere conflicts with that notion), it also assumes that Nightmare's host is in control. Which goes back to the "Elements of Lobotomy" thing. And quite frankly, letting a host remain in control of his or her body isn't really Nightmare's style, given its track record so far.

Not to mention, I don't see how NMM causing random destruction when she first surfaces, wanting to make Esquestria's citizens live in despair, and wanting to enact something that WoG has said could destroy all life on the pkanet, would be "acting like Luna" in any way. Especially when given what we see of Luna in Journal of the Two Sisters.
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al

You know, I generally think these walls of text are ridiculous, I just read the bottom

"Says the guy who somehow thinks that NMM2 is Rarity possessed by Shadowfright."

Not really sure how i implied that or what the hell NMM2 is exactly, im sure its from some comic I haven't seen. I just said that the force that possessed rarity was not the same one that got Luna. and unlike shadowfright/nmr she has her own personality and calls Celestia sister and thinks she has a right to rule by blood.

Like, I dont know what the hell you want man. For your theory to work we have to assume that this thing 'keeps a lot of personality of it's host' which automatically makes the 'evil mutation' turning her into NMM more credible than it being some random spirit that thinks it is Celestias fucking sister.

Not to mention, if it WAS some unnamed never seen spirit, her mind is clearly still in there. Even if it is one with whatever evil has merged with her.

Seriously, if she did not act like Luna but evil i might agree with you.
Pepsi_Al
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #FD2C
@Pepsi_Al

You know, all your doing is going

"People disagree with you!"

and posting image macros like this was 4chan or something.
Meanwhile, you haven't provided anything (definitive) that disproves what I've been saying since the moment you started this whole debate between the two of us, so I'm patiently waiting.

And We DONT have an explanation to what NMM actually is, She was around talking to the 'nightmare forces' long before they WERE the nightmare forces(thats how i can 'be so sure'), so what the fuck possessed her and made her A 'nightmare' then? Nothing. We dont know, It's left to interpretation.
If nothing possessed her, then where does the black mist that engulfs her when she becomes NMM come from? Surely it can't be Luna herself. Especially not with how it manifests herself around her. And especially not with how Lauren Faust talks about Nightmare Moon, with how Lauren says that Luna could not have been drawn from Nightmare Moon for a millennium, and that Celestia "did what she could" to orchestrate breaking the spell that turned Luna into Nightmare Moon. There's only one explanation that I can think of that identifies the source of both the the black mist and who placed the curse Lauren talks about. And before you say otherwise, I'll point out that what I have been talking about is the entity that takes hold of Luna when she's Nightmare Moon. Not the creatures said entity corrupts when it was still inside Luna's body and trapped on the moon.

And if your going to take that end gag seriously i'll stop wasting my brain power here.
If Nightmare really was an "end gag," like you're saying it is, there would not have been such a big fuss made about it during the comic arc in which it makes itself known. Nor would there be an implication that it existed possibly before Luna was even born. An implication that makes itself present in the form of hieroglyphs Sweetie Belle takes note of during the one-shot comic where she, the rest of the CMC, Fluttershy, and Discord all go on a time travelling trip.

@Pepsi_Al

"How does one come to the conclusion that the being that turned Rarity into NMR isn’t the same thing that turned Luna into NMM?"

Oh my god, you ARE trolling!

Or you havent read the fucking comic at all.
Dude. I wouldn't even be saying at least half of the stuff I've been saying if I truly haven't read the comic at all.

Nightmare rarity was SPECIFICALLY possessed by shadowfright AKA Larry, whom NMM talked to when she got banished (In his natural non nightmare form)
As one can see on this page, NMR alludes to herself as being defeated by the Mane 6 before. With the words "your powers" being an obvious reference to the Elements of Harmony. This is consistent with what we see towards the end of the series' 2nd episode, where NMM gets blasted by the Mane 6 when they use the Elements of Harmony on her. If Shadowfright really was speaking through Rarity at that moment, then saying that the Mane 6 defeated her before is something NMR should not be saying, as Shadowfright was on the moon when NMM was defeated by the Mane 6 when they used the Elements of Harmony.

Note how the Mare in the Moon appears on the surface of the moon once NMR surfaces. This is quickly noted by Ponyville's civilians, most notably Cheerilee. Which causes them to fear that NMM returned. Even though in that same scene, Celestia says "but that doesn't look like Luna," she could have just as easily said "Well… You're not wrong." I highly doubt Shadowfright can cause such a drastic change in how the moon usually looks. And I don't think I need to mention why the presence of the Mare in the Moon would cause ponies to fear that NMM had indeed returned.

And then we have the most glaring hole in your assertion that NMR is Rarity possessed by Shadowfright.

Unless if Shadowfright can somehow clone himself (which I heavily doubt), according to YOUR logic, the scene where this image crop comes from shouldn't even be happening. Because, unless I'm mistaken, Shadowfright is clearly shown right there strangling Jerome, and taking note of how Rarity had a stronger will than Luna. While Nightmare, through Rariy, is monologuing about how Rarity was the most ideal vessel for it to possess. Even outright opening its monologue with "My dear Larry. My dear, simple, unamusing, Larry." Earlier, during that very same scene, Shadowfright even calls NMR "Supreme One" before pretty much asking Nightmare why it didn't turn Fluttershy into Nightmare Fluttershy, with Flutters herself being described as "that yellow one" by Shadowfright himself. He also thought of Fluttershy as an easier candidate too, even though Nightmare went with Rarity as its choice of vessel. If Rarity really was possessed by Shadowfright, none of that would make sense. And neither would Shadowfright's presence in the scenes below when he speaks to Spike or the dummy the slugs made in Spike's likeness.




And you have the gall to say that I'm the troll here? Or that I haven't read the comic? What gives you the right to condescend me and tell me that I didn't to the research when I clearly did more research than you?

You dont have any facts straight
Says the guy who somehow thinks that NMM2 is Rarity possessed by Shadowfright.
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al

"How does one come to the conclusion that the being that turned Rarity into NMR isn’t the same thing that turned Luna into NMM?"

Oh my god, you ARE trolling!

Or you havent read the fucking comic at all.

Nightmare rarity was SPECIFICALLY possessed by shadowfright AKA Larry, whom NMM talked to when she got banished (In his natural non nightmare form)

You dont have any facts straight, go ahead and respond with a wall of inane bullshit and image macros though.

They make you look clever and smart :^)
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al

You know, all your doing is going

"People disagree with you!"

and posting image macros like this was 4chan or something.

And We DONT have an explanation to what NMM actually is, She was around talking to the 'nightmare forces' long before they WERE the nightmare forces(thats how i can 'be so sure'), so what the fuck possessed her and made her A 'nightmare' then? Nothing. We dont know, It's left to interpretation.

And if your going to take that end gag seriously i'll stop wasting my brain power here.
Pepsi_Al
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #FD2C
@Pepsi_Al
Dude, faust said it 'may have had something to do with an outside force', it was not a nightmare force that supposedly possessed her like rarity anyway.
Except how can you be so sure? Need I remind you, the show and its showrunners have yet to provide an explanation that contradicts the Nightmares arc. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to even see one of the showrunners to direct people to the comics when asked about how Luna became NMM. Seeing as they've done the same thing with the chapter books and people asking about Cadence's origins.

I think its some kind of merge assuming the interaction was that direct with the unspecified force to begin with.
So Nightmare is an "unspecified force" all of a sudden. I'm sorry, but…



And I already mentioned that the base form is the victim in the case of what you're talking about.

Which I dont think it is.
You're gonna have to explain yourself with this one.

and thats the thing, you swear up and down with walls of text that NMM is in every way NOT Luna, then who the heck is she? Don't try to tell me it's that shadow pony end gag, since it was a gag and also referred to as 'the leftover energy' or some such, not an actual fully sapient entity.
Well what do you want me to tell you? That's only explanation anything official has ever given. One could argue that the very thing you describe as a "shadow pony end gag" had one host prior to Luna. Coming from Anugypt no less. And just how is a critical plot element, one that Luna herself describes as an entity that knew exactly what to say to convince her to accept their energy and hatred, a "gag?" The fact that you even call Nightmare a "gag" makes me want to roll my eyes.

They have had like 2 whole comic arcs on Luna and NMM specifically and we have not had any explanation to who this 'other entity' is supposed to be, we already know it isint a nightmare force like what created NMR, So chances are it does not work the same.


How does one come to the conclusion that the being that turned Rarity into NMR isn't the same thing that turned Luna into NMM? Again, if lines like "It's true, your powers defeated me before, little ponies" are any indication, NMR takes about herself as if she and NMM are one and the same. And given Luna's account of her experiences as NMM in the comic arc NMR first appears in, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that what made Luna into NMM has taken hold of Rarity in that arc.

Ask anyone who Nightmare Moon is and they aren't going to tell you that she is some unspecified space entity that we have never seen or heard from possessing Luna.
On the contrary, that's precisely what you'll hear from people. Or at least those whose personal fanons don't conflict with the Nightmares story arc. And in case you forgot, someone in the comment box aside from myself, specifically one of this site's mods, has literally said, and I quote, "Luna and Nightmare Moon might as well be two different ponies." And you'll definitely find another Derpibooru user or two that would describe Nightmare Moon as another entity possessing Luna.

And damn it, until they actually confirm the existence of this thing (outside of the former writer's half baked unspecific twitter post) then im going to assume she just had her alignment forcefully turned Lawful Evil by her own emotions and hate filled magic.
What more confirmation do you want? The fact that NMM exists as a seperate entity from Luna in the comics should be confirmation enough.

On another note, if somepony's emotions and hate-filled magic was all it took, don't you think we would have seen more situations like with NMM by now?

Also, I have every reason to think Celestia was not being literal in what she was saying.

She simply does not view NMM as a sister, as she does indeed not act like luna. She is evil.

That scene of Luna was Celestia's nightmare and she stated her thoughts. Unless she turns back into that little pony; then she is not her sister, but an enemy that she must defend against.
Except if it wasn't supposed to be taken literally, you wouldn't even be seeing comments like "So, who or what is Nigtmare Moon?" or "I’m not sure what she is anymore." (Those were comments that actually came from another Derpibooru user, mind you.) And given what we see in the Nightmares arc in the comics, I honestly cannot see how it can be taken as anything aside from literal.

It's cool if you disagree, but the concept has always rustled my jimmies.
It's better than the "Elements of Lobotomy" concept, that's for sure.
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al
Dude, faust said it 'may have had something to do with an outside force', it was not a nightmare force that supposedly possessed her like rarity anyway.

I think its some kind of merge assuming the interaction was that direct with the unspecified force to begin with. Which I dont think it is.

and thats the thing, you swear up and down with walls of text that NMM is in every way NOT Luna, then who the heck is she? Don't try to tell me it's that shadow pony end gag, since it was a gag and also referred to as 'the leftover energy' or some such, not an actual fully sapient entity.

They have had like 2 whole comic arcs on Luna and NMM specifically and we have not had any explanation to who this 'other entity' is supposed to be, we already know it isint a nightmare force like what created NMR, So chances are it does not work the same.

Ask anyone who Nightmare Moon is and they aren't going to tell you that she is some unspecified space entity that we have never seen or heard from possessing Luna.

And damn it, until they actually confirm the existence of this thing (outside of the former writer's half baked unspecific twitter post) then im going to assume she just had her alignment forcefully turned Lawful Evil by her own emotions and hate filled magic.


Also, I have every reason to think Celestia was not being literal in what she was saying.

She simply does not view NMM as a sister, as she does indeed not act like luna. She is evil.

That scene of Luna was Celestia's nightmare and she stated her thoughts. Unless she turns back into that little pony; then she is not her sister, but an enemy that she must defend against.

It's cool if you disagree, but the concept has always rustled my jimmies.
Pepsi_Al
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #FD2C
@Pepsi_Al

I dont think that line was meant to me taken literally, that image of Luna was just the nightmare she was trying to make her see.
I don't see your point here. I mean, NMM had complete control over the nightmare when showing images of Luna suffering to Celestia. NMM's intention backfired, but that's aside the point. At any rate, I don't see how the dialogue can be taken as anything but literally.

It's like darth vader referring to his old self like a different entity, only it is celestia saying it.

"My sister would not do this so your not my sister"
Except at no point does NMM refer to herself as Luna either, nor does recount any moment in Luna's life as her own. She doesn't even refer to herself as "the very pony Celestia loves the most" when she's talking to Celestia.

So a certain point i think it is interpretation. It might be like the fusion dance but with the evil side very much dominant.
If it is, then it's like with Cell or Buu from the Dragon Ball series, but with the base form belonging to the victim instead.

I just can't stand the 'trapped in your own mind' idea
Why?

and it does kinda conflict with the newest luna episode in the way she refers to her actions as NMM.
In all honesty, I don't see how, hence why I asked for proof. It's not at all impossible to feel sorry for certain actions made just for letting them happen, period. Whether an outside force made them commit those actions or not.
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al

I dont think that line was meant to me taken literally, that image of Luna was just the nightmare she was trying to make her see.

It's like darth vader referring to his old self like a different entity, only it is celestia saying it.

"My sister would not do this so your not my sister"

So a certain point i think it is interpretation. It might be like the fusion dance but with the evil side very much dominant. I just can't stand the 'trapped in your own mind' idea and it does kinda conflict with the newest luna episode in the way she refers to her actions as NMM.
Pepsi_Al
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #FD2C
@Pepsi_Al

Okay, NMM2?
It's a name that TV Tropes uses to refer to NMR whenever its editors aren't using spoiler tags. A bit of a related note, but TV Tropes also lists Night Rare Moon as a nickname for NMR given by fans, most likely in reference to the fact of what NMR is.

There are several theories about Nightmare Moon and Luna which say they're not the same entity. This was confirmed by Lauren Faust herself (though she also gave a speech in an interview about Nightmare Moon's "reformation"). Nightmare Moon could be in fact an enbodiment of dark magic possessing Luna and keeping her prisoner under her evil influence till she was finally released by the Elements of Harmony.
There doesn't seem to be anything in official media suggesting that Nightmare is just rogue magic, however.

However, this theory has been debunked by the episode Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?.
Do you have any proof of this? I ask because, last I checked, there's not even a conflict between that episode and the comic arc that involves Rarity becoming the 2nd Nightmare Moon. That fact was even pointed out to me by one Derpibooru user in another debate when I asked another user about a theory (s)he has.

I cant find that image of her saying she is separate from Luna.
Every single piece of interaction between Celestia and Nightmare Moon has NMM talking about Luna like she's another pony entirely, and Celestia talking to NMM like she's not Luna. A case of Celestia talking to NMM like she's another person from Luna can be seen in the image below.



@Background Pony #FD2C
@Pepsi_Al

Lets just say there are mutable interpretations, though for some reason i guess that recent luna episode is supposed to debunk it?
Given the context of the episode itself, I heavily doubt it.
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al

Lets just say there are mutable interpretations, though for some reason i guess that recent luna episode is supposed to debunk it?
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al

Okay, NMM2?

Just actually read the wiki

There are several theories about Nightmare Moon and Luna which say they're not the same entity. This was confirmed by Lauren Faust herself (though she also gave a speech in an interview about Nightmare Moon's "reformation"). Nightmare Moon could be in fact an enbodiment of dark magic possessing Luna and keeping her prisoner under her evil influence till she was finally released by the Elements of Harmony. However, this theory has been debunked by the episode Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?.

Clearly she got in over her head with something, but I cant find that image of her saying she is separate from Luna.
Pepsi_Al
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #FD2C: I wouldn't interpret that as NMM2 being a fusion between Rarity and Nightmare. More than anything, that was said to emphasise that Rarity was turned into Nightmare's vessel then. With that said, some traits of Rarity's personality does "bleed" into Nightmare's in a way similar to what's seen with Super Buu from Dragon Ball Z when he absorbs Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan. That "bleeding" can be evidenced by NMM2's choice of attire.

@Background Pony #FD2C: Yeah, as a matter of fact. And it happens before Celestia berates Nightmare for the fact that it doesn't want to give Luna up so easily.
Background Pony #8B73
@Pepsi_Al
Thats the thing, I see it as more a merge, Isint there a point where NMR says "I guess me" in reference to something Rarity did?
Pepsi_Al
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #FD2C
@Pepsi_Al

Look dude, I don't know why she would lie about being a separate entity 3 years into Eternal night.
I meant the separate entity in question would lie about Luna being the dominant personality. With that said, when Nightmare and Celestia confront each other in the dreamscape, Nightmare doesn't lie about the fact that it and Luna aren't the same. Even going as far as to try to make Celestia despair by showing her images of Luna suffering.

Also, fly back home, seriously?
What else would you do if you suddenly found yourself in unfamiliar territory? Instinct would suggest to leave. Learning that leaving is impossible is typically learned the hard way in fiction. The fact that NMM doesn't try to simply leave upon arrival on the moon suggests that she knows she can't leave. Which suggests that something like imprisonment on the moon happened to her (or rather, it) before. Which wouldn't make sense if NMM and Luna were one and the same.

She was trapped as shadow or some shit in the show, so I don't even know whats going on with the comic.
The comic shows that the Mare in the Moon appears on the moon's surface when Nightmare and its vessel are on the moon. No case we see of that involves Nightmare and its vessel being turned into shadow. The Mare in the Moon also doesn't have to resemble Luna, require for Luna to be the vessel in question, or even require imprisonment. As it does take on Rarity's appearance soon after Rarity is made into the 2nd NMM. Which is noted by Celestia when Cheerilee asks her if NMM returned in the arc in which that happens.

I just don't think Luna was unconscious as NMM. Maybe they fused into one being or something. I don't know.
You're right in that Luna wasn't unconscious as NMM. But that doesn't mean she had control over her actions as NMM. Her experience as NMM is best described with the phrase "I have no mouth, and I must scream." Given that Rarity described her experience as NMR as cold, dark, lonely, being forced to harm her friends against her will, and being unable to do anything about it, one can imagine how Luna felt going through the same thing for far longer.

@Background Pony #FD2C
@Pepsi_Al
Plus her expression in the s4 premiere just means she did nit intend to turn into NMM.
I do believe I already said that when I said assuming Luna was in control of NMM's actions assumes that she did indeed want to become NMM.

she is not trapped in her own mind.
Her actions as NMM seem to suggest otherwise.

Even twilight tried to talk to her like she was Luna in the s4 premiere.
One, that was before Twilight realized it was a flashback. And two, you never want the body-possessing entity in a demonic possession case to remain the dominant personality. One of the best ways to shake the entity's control is to reach out to the host.