Lord WyrmSpawN

Lingering Wyvern

@The Smiling Pony
Well they certainly didn’t become so overnight, or by catering to only one group and forcing other groups to capitulate.

In a best-case scenario.

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The Smiling Pony

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@Flummoxed Phoenix
That’s a poor attempt at one of three points.

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Flummoxed Phoenix

@The Smiling Pony
They didn’t “become compatible,” they happened to be compatible.

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The Smiling Pony

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@Flummoxed Phoenix

How do you think some of those became “compatible”
Are you who defines what cultures are and aren’t “compatible”?
Are you who defines who that happened to have been born across an imaginary line inescapably “belongs” to an “incompatible” culture and can never, ever change?

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Flummoxed Phoenix

@The Smiling Pony
This:
@PonyPon

@Flummoxed Phoenix
I think integration is certainly possible, given compatible groups and ideologies.

Those do exist.

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Lord WyrmSpawN

Lingering Wyvern

@Flummoxed Phoenix
I think integration is certainly possible, given compatible groups and ideologies.

Those do exist.

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The Smiling Pony

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@Flummoxed Phoenix

Either way, integration doesn’t happen.

Of course not, that’s why the US is divided neatly into racial and cultural ghettos and no one of dutch ancestry intermingles with those with irish ancesstry, only italians eat pizza, and there will never be a descendant from germans living in the white house married to a slovenian.

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Flummoxed Phoenix

@The Smiling Pony
Either way, integration doesn’t happen. And you don’t need the people from another culture to take the beneficial aspects from them.

@mathprofbrony
Yeah, that’s why it’s fiction.

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mathprofbrony

@Flummoxed Phoenix

@TexasUberAlles
Ah, the white man’s burden to “better” everyone else. You going to save everyone there, Kipling, or allow others their own cultures without trying to “assimilate” them like the Borg?

(Literally on an imageboard about magical friendship ponies and yet hostile to the notion that you will end up happier when you try to make the world a better place for everyone)

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The Smiling Pony

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@Flummoxed Phoenix
On the spider thread thin chance you’re actually serious, how are you managing to equate “we should be welcoming of other people into our country and ensure they integrate into our culture, enriching it where beneficial” to “we should actively impose our culture in foreign lands”?

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Flummoxed Phoenix

@The Smiling Pony
Less obvious what? The British Empire tried this and failed. Why should I expect the same arguments to work now that have always failed in the past?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

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The Smiling Pony

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@Flummoxed Phoenix
Cute, but try to be less obvious.

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Flummoxed Phoenix

@TexasUberAlles
Ah, the white man’s burden to “better” everyone else. You going to save everyone there, Kipling, or allow others their own cultures without trying to “assimilate” them like the Borg?

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🐴

IRL 🎠 stallion

This meme is better when the final panel has loss.jpg as Twilight’s face

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redweasel

Fuzzbutt

@TexasUberAlles

Turns out current research generally agrees that it’s almost entirely a matter of socialization altering the developing brain in childhood, not a genetic determination.

I think that would depend on whether you’re looking at the part of the brain that decides to wear dresses and have tea parties, or at the part of the brain that decides whether to penetrate yourself or someone else.

not to say that parents aren’t f-ing idiots for telling their little girls that it’s not feminine to go into STEM. nor to say there are never any exceptions. I just think the only measurable differences between sexes occur when you remove all cultural context and purely look at physical aspects of the body and mind related directly to sex. and even then, when someone says “oh look see girl babies are physically less competitive and motivated, so therefore we can pay women less” I’m extremely skeptical that the cultural context hasn’t entirely been removed from the researcher.

anyway I’m probably not being very helpful. just wanted to point out that there have to be some differences. people try to get us to admit those, and then shift the goalposts to getting us to agree there should be socioeconomic differences, so it’s good to be aware.

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TexasUberAlles

@mathprofbrony
Diversity is strength
It can also be expressed in metallurgy, where alloys almost always have superior characteristics to any of their components.

Man, someone had better alert the United States that those Irish are never going to assimilate
Nobody remembers that Captain Rogers (US Army Ret.) was the son of Irish immigrants and grew up being discriminated against in 1920s-‘30s New York.

@O’Shaunal
It’s not my people’s burden to integrate tens of millions of people into our culture
If someone’s an American it sure as hell is.

@Background Pony #2BC6

Not to steal anyone’s quote, but it’s also not the burden to help others to have a better life and future. History shows us this has already happened in the past and it needed more than one Crusade to remove the parasites who didn’t want to work but only leeched off. Integration is not only scientifically impossible and worsens a nation’s debt, but has been explicitely cited as evil in various religious texts.

It’s interesting that you follow “it’s also not the burden to help others to have a better life and future” with an endorsement of fundamentalist religious extremism in the form of crusades, not only because the canonical answer to “Am I my brother’s keeper” was a resounding “Yes, dumbass, you were in fact supposed to be”, but because the Fourth Crusade was most definitely not the high point of the religion I assume from context you’re endorsing.

research such as differences in male and female human brains
Turns out current research generally agrees that it’s almost entirely a matter of socialization altering the developing brain in childhood, not a genetic determination.

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🐴

IRL 🎠 stallion

@Background Pony #2BC6

implying that you have a divine sugar daddy

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mathprofbrony

@Background Pony #2BC6

Integration is not only scientifically impossible and worsens a nation’s debt, but has been explicitely cited as evil in various religious texts.

Man, someone had better alert the United States that those Irish are never going to assimilate. I hear they’re all mind-controlled by the Pope anyway.

Also could someone pass the word to England that Angles and Saxons will never work out a common culture? Best to just not try.

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Background Pony #B5CD

@The Smiling Pony
Not to steal anyone’s quote, but it’s also not the burden to help others to have a better life and future. History shows us this has already happened in the past and it needed more than one Crusade to remove the parasites who didn’t want to work but only leeched off. Integration is not only scientifically impossible and worsens a nation’s debt, but has been explicitely cited as evil in various religious texts.

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The Smiling Pony

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@O’Shaunal

It’s not my people’s burden to integrate tens of millions of people into our culture.

If you don’t want to see it as helping other people have a better life and future, then you should try seeing it as survival. You may not care that other people have bad or backwards moral and ethics systems, but chances are good that they care that you’re an infidel that should convert, bow down, or be put to the sword. If you aren’t planning on a cultural victory you’ll have to plan for a military one, or submission.

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Background Pony #B5CD

@O’Shaunal
It’s not simply a burden: religions explicitely call this evil.

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O'Shaunal

@The Smiling Pony

@O’Shaunal
Or alternatively, the better culture will prevail through actually being better and actively integrating people into it and exporting it. Ghettos are not a good thing, nor is closing the door on anyone looking for help because they’re “different”.

It’s not my people’s burden to integrate tens of millions of people into our culture.

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Background Pony #B5CD

@The Smiling Pony
Since not all people of the world are the same and not all nations of the world had the same history why should we throw all religions into the same bin?
We’ve come a great deal thanks to science and currently there are self-described human rights’ organizations demanding a stop on science over research such as differences in male and female human brains and whether nationalism is genetic.
One particular gene is said to be responsible for social interaction and ethnic framing. This claims people simply don’t see Black and White. They see dozens of incompatible Blacks and dozens of incompatible Whites. It’s as if social geniuses will tell apart a German from a Pole or a Zulu from a Khoisan as night and day. The lack of the gene causes severe speech impediment.
Don’t let me start on the recent study on the social cohesion of a community depending on its homogenity of social norms and looks.

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The Smiling Pony

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@O’Shaunal

New products and ideas don’t require migrations of people, particularly now.

They sort of do. People aren’t going to figure out that churros are amazing if they never travelled to a place where they’re common and then decide to bring it back. Immigrants take it back to their home country the same as money back to family; they realize some things are better, and extend the knowledge back home directly or indirectly.

Bad cultures (some of which have resistance to change built in) will overtake better cultures through higher birthrates and by migration into democratic countries.

Or alternatively, the better culture will prevail through actually being better and actively integrating people into it and exporting it. Ghettos are not a good thing, nor is closing the door on anyone looking for help because they’re “different”.

WWI was caused by empire and alliances, which are a form of internationalism.

The extent of the war was due to alliances triggering a cascade effect of war declarations. Without those alliances they’d’ve just kept going on rolling with smaller wars as Europe had been doing for centuries, at least until one of them nuked some other’s capital city.

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mathprofbrony

Why is diversity better?

Because it’s an incontrovertible mathematical fact that if different agents have varying probabilities of being right in varying situations, even if they have the same average probability of being right, then under a range of conditions you will get better performance on a series of questions posed in the relevant situations by taking a majority vote of the diverse group than taking a poll of a homogeneous group of the same size.

Here’s a small nontrivial example.

There are three subjects: A, B, and C. Assume your agents are at least somewhat competent, and more likely than chance to get a right answer. One group of three agents consists of three people each of whom have a 60% chance of being right on questions regarding any of the three subjects. Think of this as how they “spent” 180 percentage points of effort developing their expertise. This is the “homogeneous” group.

Another group of three agents is “diverse”: it has three people Alpha, Beta, and Gamma, where Alpha has an 80% chance of getting a question regarding A right and a 50% chance of being right on B or C. He spent the same 180 percentage points in a different way. Beta and Gamma specialized in subjects B and C similarly.

Since the three subjects are symmetric, you’ll get the same for any, so let’s look at Subject A.

In the first group we poll the three people with 60% expertise. We have the following outcomes:

3 right: 0.216
2 right and 1 wrong: 0.432 (30.60.60.4)
1 right and 2 wrong, or 3 wrong: we choose the wrong answer.

Total probability of choosing the right answer: 0.648.

(By the way, we note immediately that democracy beats dictatorship. The group does better than any one of its members.)

Next the diverse group. We choose the right answer if:

all three agree on the right: 0.80.50.5 = 0.2
Alpha is right, exactly one of the others agrees: 20.80.50.5 = 0.4
Alpha is wrong, the two others are right: 0.20.50.5 = 0.05

Our probability of choosing the correct answer is 0.65.

The diverse group does better by about 1.2%.

Now, you may say, well, this is merely an effect of the specialization, not of the diversity of the group. Very well, let’s specialize everyone, and now compare the diverse group to one in which all three are specialized in subject A. Assume questions regarding the three subjects come up equally often.

The diverse group consistently performs at 65%, and so this is its overall performance.

On Subject A, our homogenous group does very well:

3 right: 0.8^{3 = 0.512

2 right: 3*0.8}20.2 = 0.384
We total an 0.896 probability of a right answer.

On their weak subjects, the homogeneous group performs as follows:

3 right: 0.5^3 = 0.125
2 right: 30.5^3 = 0.375
As you would expect, the group has a simple 50% chance of a correct answer.

The homogeneous group’s overall performance, when questions are 1/3 likely to come from each subject, is thus

(1/3)(0.896+0.5+0.5) = 0.632.

Specializing everybody in the same thing actually did worse than giving everyone average proficiency at everything! It certainly did worse than taking a group of diverse specialists.

Diversity is strength.

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