She went to Spitfire after it became apparent that Lightning Dust in no way cared about the ponies she had endangered/nearly killed. Had Lightning shown the slightest hint of remorse, or gone to report the matter herself immediately, maybe things would have worked out differently. But she didn’t, and as much as you seem to want to blame Spitfire for that fact, it’s not even remotely her fault.

So what? She still took advantage of Scootaloo and forced her into doing something she wasn’t ready for and could clearly see was dangerous. And it’s not like Scootaloo was the only one unprepared for what might happen. Lightning Dust hadn’t done that trick before either, and no one had tested it to make sure it worked. Which just goes to show how much more Lightning Dust cares about showing off than she does anyone’s safety.

Because Dash actually deserved her chance. Lightning Dust blew off the idea she did something wrong, and wasn’t going to make up for anything. Dash admitted her mistake and accepted the responsibility. This is not a complicated situation.

What was there to explain? By that point Lightning Dust had made it clear she didn’t think what she did was wrong, and it’s obvious she wasn’t going to stop either. She could have done a lot of things to change what happened, but everything she got was deserved, and brought upon herself.

There is no evidence it was a restricted area, and the show flat out says it affected the other cadets. That will remain true no matter how many uppercase letters you use.

Well planned? Don’t make me laugh.

 
Dusty is explicitly shown while planning a stunt.  

 

Lightning Dust added a completely untested, entirely dangerous stunt to a show with no idea what would happen. A show where she specifically says they threw out the rulebook. You have absolutely no basis to claim the audience is safe there, or that Lightning and the rest of the Washouts actually know what they are doing won’t hurt anyone (not that Lightning Dust would care if it did).

And as they specifically spell it out in the dialogue, so you are still wrong.

No, you didn’t.

That’s not what it says. Full fledged team training only.

Yes, Rainbow has some responsibility as well. But she spoke up and took responsibility. Lightning, the one pushing for it and the instigating factor in what happened, did not.

At least Rainbow did indicate her concerns. And she tolerated Lightning Dust’s behavior only up until it became apparent that Lightning cared more about showing off than the safety of others, or even that she had nearly killed five ponies.

With the exception of Rainbow Dash and the friends Lighting Dust nearly killed, the only other ones there are Spitfire and two instructors. Hardly the public spectacle you seem to think it is.

Much like Lightning Dust herself then.

No, because Dashie went immediately to Spitfire.
And Spitfire never gave Dusty any chance to explain herself.
That is Spitfires fault.

Yes, it was wrong to ignore her second thoughts even if she got them at the very last moment.
But Dusty made very clear that the stunts were unsafe for the unprepared before.

And unlike Dusty she got a chance to explain herself and to make up for her mistake.

She had a chance to say something when surrounded by disgruntled trainees and the ponies she almost killed. She had a chance to go to Spitfire. She chose not to do either.

And Spitfire could have given her a chance to explain and redeem herself.
She did not.

No, Dashie endangered many civillians that were present with her INTENTIONAL stunt.
Dusty started the tornado in a RESTRICTED and ISOLATED area.
And it did clearly not affect the other cadets.

Oh, and if you’re honestly going to argue that Rainbow’s stunt put an audience at risk, you cannot also claim that Lightning’s “no rules” approach does not.

Yes, I can.
It is clear that Dusty and her Washouts know what they are doing and that their well-planned stunts does not endanger the audience.
That cannot be said about Dashies stunt which ended in disaster.

Scootaloo: “Wow. That sure is…”
Lightning Dust: “Dangerous? Nah! Well, maybe a little.”
Scootaloo: “Has anypony tested it before?”
Lightning Dust: “Where’s the fun in that?”

The dialogue from the episodes makes it quite clear the stunt literally affected the other trainees in addition to Rainbow’s friends. You cannot deny what the episode specifically tells us happened.

No, it is clear to see that the other cadets are not affected by the tornado.

And as for the restricted area, once again, there is no proof of that. Not in the dialogue, not in the scenery, not anywhere.

I already proved that and I won´t do it again.

OUR training exercises. As in the full fledged Wonderbolt team exercises. Not just any exercise in general.

No, training in general.
No matter the rank.

Wanting to show off still does not excuse what happened. Lightning Dust deliberately and unjustifiably pursued a course of action while consciously disregarding any risks that might result from it. That is textbook recklessness, and the blame for what happened falls squarely on her.

She is not the only one to blame.
All involved parties share some responsibility.

Lightning did have a chance to work on a team. Spitfire gave her a teammate. One whom she ignored and risked the safety of in order to show off.

Lightning may have been talented, but she was not the best cadet.

We should not forget that Dashie went along with everything what Dusty did despite having plenty of opportunities to express her concern clearly (not half-hearted) towards her or Spitfire.

When I see how much mercy she got I cannot blame her for not putting herself at the mercy of the instructors.

She earned that as a result of her own actions and her failure to take responsibility. The instructors are not to blame for her lack of concern for anyone but herself.

@genervt

You keep insisting on this interpretation of public humiliation like they lined every trainee up to throw tomatoes at her and subjected her to a public flogging. But in reality, Spitfire just took her leader badge and dismissed her. That’s it. So enough with the “hurtful” and “cruel”. It doesn’t match what actually happened to her, and serves no purpose aside from rewriting the story into the form you want it to be.

Spitfire humiliated her by expelling her in public where the whole academy could see her shaming.
Even if the expulsion were justified (it was not) there was absolutely no excuse for not doing it in her bureau so that she could have let Dusty keep at least some dignity.
But of course she had to be cruel and made a public spectacle of Dustys disgracing to make it as hurtful as possible.

Her expulsion was absolutely justified.

Also, the whole academy?

This image is blocked by your current filter - click here to display it anyway

your current filter.

This image is blocked by your current filter - click here to display it anyway

your current filter.

With the exception of Rainbow Dash and the friends Lighting Dust nearly killed, the only other ones there are Spitfire and two instructors. Hardly the public spectacle you seem to think it is.

@genervt

Her punishment was way beyond excessive and waste of talent.

Much like Lightning Dust herself then.

Once again I will point out that she had plenty of time before Rainbow talked to Spitfire to take responsibility or do the right thing. She could even have gone to Spitfire herself and reported what happened, like an actual leader should do. But she either didn’t think causing half her class to spin out and almost killing five ponies was wrong, or she didn’t care that she did it, and neither case should afford her the second chance you think she deserves, or makes what happens Spitfire’s fault.

Scootaloo volunteering doesn’t change the fact that Lightning forced her to go through with the stunt, even after she changed her mind upon realizing the entire thing was a dangerous, untested death trap. Lightning didn’t care about her well being, or making her a better pony. She just wanted spectacle, and she was willing to push someone into a potentially fatal stunt to do it.

That said, she had literally just become a Wonderbolt that episode, which still arguably made her unfamiliar with a lot of what being one entailed. And that still doesn’t change the fact that, unlike Lightning, she took responsibility for her mistake and was willing to take whatever punishment the team decided on.

She had a chance to say something when surrounded by disgruntled trainees and the ponies she almost killed. She had a chance to go to Spitfire. She chose not to do either.

And yes, perhaps Dash was lucky. But the fact that she took responsibility for a mistake that only ended up endangering her when Lightning couldn’t be bothered to care after endangering other trainees and almost killing Rainbow’s friends only show all the more why Lightning deserved what happened to her.

Oh, and if you’re honestly going to argue that Rainbow’s stunt put an audience at risk, you cannot also claim that Lightning’s “no rules” approach does not.

The dialogue from the episodes makes it quite clear the stunt literally affected the other trainees in addition to Rainbow’s friends. You cannot deny what the episode specifically tells us happened.

And as for the restricted area, once again, there is no proof of that. Not in the dialogue, not in the scenery, not anywhere.

OUR training exercises. As in the full fledged Wonderbolt team exercises. Not just any exercise in general.

Wanting to show off still does not excuse what happened. Lightning Dust deliberately and unjustifiably pursued a course of action while consciously disregarding any risks that might result from it. That is textbook recklessness, and the blame for what happened falls squarely on her.

She put up with Dash because Dash is exceptional (not that it kept her from risking Dash’s safety). She also started day one by talking back to Spitfire and voicing the opinions that she should be made a Wonderbolt on the spot. Those are not qualities that speak to her teamwork abilities, or that she is even aware of how a team functions.

Lightning did have a chance to work on a team. Spitfire gave her a teammate. One whom she ignored and risked the safety of in order to show off.

Lightning may have been talented, but she was not the best cadet.

Her interaction with Scootaloo suggests neither of those things are true.

She had chances. She could have apologized. She could have claimed responsibility. She could have put herself at the mercy of the instructors. She could have done literally anything but dismiss it and fly off. There were any number of ways this could have gone differently. But it ultimately comes down to what she chose to do, and what she chose to do was none of that.

You keep insisting on this interpretation of public humiliation like they lined every trainee up to throw tomatoes at her and subjected her to a public flogging. But in reality, Spitfire just took her leader badge and dismissed her. That’s it. So enough with the “hurtful” and “cruel”. It doesn’t match what actually happened to her, and serves no purpose aside from rewriting the story into the form you want it to be.

She received the punishment she deserved. That’s all there is to it.

The fact that she tried to coerce Scootaloo into going ahead with a dangerous, untested stunt after she clearly decided she didn’t want to do it indicates otherwise. Heck, Scootaloo even says as much.

Scootaloo: "Lightning Dust wasn’t who I thought she was. She didn’t care about me being scared or putting me in danger. She only wanted a good show, even if it meant I got hurt." 

Lightning Dust didn’t care about the well being of others before, and she doesn’t care now.

You ignore the fact that Scootaloo came to her and volunteered to do the stunt.
Of course she shouldn´t have forced her to go through with it when she got second thoughts at the last moment but that was a bump on her way to become a better pony.

Rainbow wasn’t a full Wonderbolt yet when that took place.

Yes, she was.

And unlike Lightning, her mistake (which again, unlike Lightning Dust, she took responsibility for) actually only put her in danger. No one else on the team, or in the audience, got hurt.

That was only luck.
In a place full of civillians there could have been casualties very easily.
And it is impossible to take responsibility if you don’t get the chance to speak.

Lightning’s reckless stunt nearly killed five ponies and wiped out most of the trainees.

Just the former.
And the five ponies were on restricted area.

I am quoting lines directly from the episodes that indicate the other fliers were affected. I am not making anything up here, and I am not wrong.

For the very last time:

Spitfire: Okay. Which pony broke protocol and invited guests to our training exercises?!

Training exercises IN GENERAL –> No guests allowed.

They already had excellent performance. Rainbow tells her flat out that they’re way ahead of everyone else. Lightning Dust just wanted to show off. That was her sole intention.

And nothing about that intention changes the fact that she put others at risk unnecessarily, and acted like it didn’t matter.

Dusty wanted to impress as much as possible.
That was her intention and Dashie would have benefit from it, too.
Spitfires first reaction was to be impressed.
And the accident was UNINTENTIONALLY.

Nothing about her attitude in training or her time as a “leader” suggests she would have ever been willing to share glory or work with a group the way the Wonderbolt’s require members to. And they aren’t a great team. Not based on what we saw her do to Scootaloo.

She was willing to work with Dashie and she shared glory with her.
And with some additional training she would have learned to work with other ponies, too.

Spitfire is not the one who failed here. She kicked out a reckless showoff who would never have fit in properly, and would likely have put the entire team at risk every time they performed. that is exactly what she should have done, and the team is better for her having done so.

Spitfire is the one who failed here.
SHe kicked out a terrific flier who looked up to her and would have learned to work in a team if she just had gotten the chance to do so.
She let one of her best cadets down.
Dusty is better off without her and her incompetence.

You’re assuming any will survive.

Of course they will.
They know the risks and they are fine with it.

She suggested it, pushed for doing it, was the one who lost control, and failed to show any concern over the lives she put at risk doing so.

She may not be the only one to blame, but the majority of it falls on her, and her failure to do the right thing or even pretend she cared was entirely on her.

A mistake that she was never allowed to make up for.

Of course there’s an excuse. She almost killed five ponies with a reckless stunt. And Spitfire’s treatment wasn’t even cruel or humiliating. She just took her leader badge and sent her away. You make it sound like she called her up on a stage and ridiculed her in front of the whole school, and that’s not in any way remotely close to how it happened.

No, there is no excuse to publicly humiliate and expell her without any warning or chance to redeem herself; especially after encouraging her all the time before.
That is exactly what happened and of course it was cruel.
There were many possibilities for a less severe and hurtful punishment.

@Background Pony #8A12

It’s not Spitfire’s fault. Immediately after the tornado, when Rainbow Dash called her out and she was literally surrounded by the ponies she put in harm’s way, Lightning Dust had the option right there to apologize, or take responsibility, or do literally anything but shrug it off like it was nothing. But she didn’t. And that’s entirely on her.

And yes, it is Lightning’s fault because she was the one who wanted the tornado in the first place and pushed for doing it.

Spitfire was not there; she did not care for any reactions or regrets.
She kicked her out without the chance to do anything.
And that IS Spitfires fault.

It’s not Spitfire’s fault. Immediately after the tornado, when Rainbow Dash called her out and she was literally surrounded by the ponies she put in harm’s way, Lightning Dust had the option right there to apologize, or take responsibility, or do literally anything but shrug it off like it was nothing. But she didn’t. And that’s entirely on her.

And yes, it is Lightning’s fault because she was the one who wanted the tornado in the first place and pushed for doing it.

The fact that she tried to coerce Scootaloo into going ahead with a dangerous, untested stunt after she clearly decided she didn’t want to do it indicates otherwise. Heck, Scootaloo even says as much.

Scootaloo: "Lightning Dust wasn’t who I thought she was. She didn’t care about me being scared or putting me in danger. She only wanted a good show, even if it meant I got hurt." 

Lightning Dust didn’t care about the well being of others before, and she doesn’t care now.

Rainbow wasn’t a full Wonderbolt yet when that took place.

And unlike Lightning, her mistake (which again, unlike Lightning Dust, she took responsibility for) actually only put her in danger. No one else on the team, or in the audience, got hurt.

Lightning’s reckless stunt nearly killed five ponies and wiped out most of the trainees.

There is a huge difference between both situations, and no double standards involved.

No one who endangers that many others over meaningless grandstanding and shows no concerns for who she might hurt is anything but a maniac of some variety. And not thinking she needed any help (which she made abundantly, painfully clear at the academy) is just as bad.

Her expulsion was entirely justified and appropriate to do.

I am quoting lines directly from the episodes that indicate the other fliers were affected. I am not making anything up here, and I am not wrong.

Spitfire: Okay. Which pony broke protocol and invited guests to our training exercises?!

They already had excellent performance. Rainbow tells her flat out that they’re way ahead of everyone else. Lightning Dust just wanted to show off. That was her sole intention.

And nothing about that intention changes the fact that she put others at risk unnecessarily, and acted like it didn’t matter.

Nothing about her attitude in training or her time as a “leader” suggests she would have ever been willing to share glory or work with a group the way the Wonderbolt’s require members to. And they aren’t a great team. Not based on what we saw her do to Scootaloo.

Spitfire is not the one who failed here. She kicked out a reckless showoff who would never have fit in properly, and would likely have put the entire team at risk every time they performed. that is exactly what she should have done, and the team is better for her having done so.

You’re assuming any will survive.

Only when it’s the full, actual team. Try to understand that.

She suggested it, pushed for doing it, was the one who lost control, and failed to show any concern over the lives she put at risk doing so.

She may not be the only one to blame, but the majority of it falls on her, and her failure to do the right thing or even pretend she cared was entirely on her.

Of course there’s an excuse. She almost killed five ponies with a reckless stunt. And Spitfire’s treatment wasn’t even cruel or humiliating. She just took her leader badge and sent her away. You make it sound like she called her up on a stage and ridiculed her in front of the whole school, and that’s not in any way remotely close to how it happened.

@Background Pony #1A58

Even if that was true and she did feel something (and I think it’s quite clear she didn’t), she still didn’t feel bad enough to apologize or even voice concern for something that was clearly her fault. An honest apology is not asking too much of her, nor is wanting her to show the faintest hint that she understood the consequences and responsibility she had for her rash actions. That she did neither of those things says all we really need to know.

Spitfire never gave her any chance to say or do anything.
That is not Dustys fault.

Great. Wake me when she actually shows that she cares she did.

As I already explained to you several times before she only endangers herself now.

Scootaloo: “Lightning Dust wasn’t who I thought she was. She didn’t care about me being scared or putting me in danger. She only wanted a good show, even if it meant I got hurt.”

There are indeed differences.
Dashie was a full-fledged Wonderbolt with much training and experience, Dusty was a new inexperienced cadet.
Dashie did her stunt in a public area full of civilians, Dusty did hers in a restricted isolated area.
Spitfire gave Dashie a chance to explain herself, TALKED with her and put her on probation; she kicked Dusty out without even that.

Double standards.

No, Dusty is not a maniac and she did not refuse to be helped.
She never got any help, guidance or just a warning.
Her expulsion was neither right nor inevitable, it was a horrible waste.
But of course we cannot expect from Spitfire to do her job and give one of her best fliers any chance to improve.
Dusty is not a perfect Wonderbolt from the beginning so let´s kick her out.

I cannot spell this out any more clearly than I already have. Rainbow Dash told Lightning Dust immediately after saving her friends from the tornado that she sent the team into tailspins. Lightning’s comment in “The Washouts” is also a literal one. That’s what the “Actually, yeah, really” part was about. Lightning Dust did affect the other trainees, and the characters themselves outright say so.

You are entirely wrong here.

The tornado did not affect the other fliers.
I suggest you watch the episode again instead of making up things.

When your intent is to show off, and you almost kill someone doing it, the fact that almost killing someone wasn’t intended is as meaningless as what it was you did intend to do. Neither matter in comparison to what you did.

Intentions do matter, as I told you often enough.
Especially if you just wanted to show an excellent performance and the incident was an accident.

She would have learned to work in a Wonderbolt team if she had gotten the chance.
And the Washouts know the risks they take and are more than happy to do so.
They are an excellent team.

And all Lightning Dust had to do was apologize. Or show she cared at all before the commanding officer called her out. Or really do anything that indicated she wasn’t a complete self serving narcissist.

Spitfire’s gain really.

Once again she never got the chance.
Spitfire´s loss.
And she is not the only gifted flier who was let down by her incompetent captain.
It is no wonder that the Wonderbolt fail so often, they treat their best the worst.

Good for Dusty, she will have many gifted recruits.

One is a group of recruits, the other is a full fledged precision flying team. There is a world of difference between the two. So no, you still have not proven anything.

And when they train there are no guests allowed.
Try to understand that.

It’s a little hard to call Lightning a scapegoat when she’s entirely guilty and the one who instigated what happened.

Just because she isn´t blameless doesn´t mean she is the only one to blame.
She was the scapegoat and a convenient distraction from everything what went wrong.

Don’t put it all on Spitfire. Lightning’s entire team of fellow trainees saw what she did and how little she cared. If anyone put her in the position she’s in, it’s herself.

Spitfire proved often enough that she should not be captain.
And she completely failed at the end of the episode.
There is just no excuse for Dustys nasty, cruel and humiliating treatment; it was wrong on many levels.

Even if that was true and she did feel something (and I think it’s quite clear she didn’t), she still didn’t feel bad enough to apologize or even voice concern for something that was clearly her fault. An honest apology is not asking too much of her, nor is wanting her to show the faintest hint that she understood the consequences and responsibility she had for her rash actions. That she did neither of those things says all we really need to know.

Great. Wake me when she actually shows that she cares she did.

Well there’s a big difference between Rainbow Dash and Lightning Dust.

Spitfire: "I’ve drummed flyers out of the ’Bolts for less." 
Rainbow Dash: "I know, and I’m ready for whatever punishment you want." 

Rainbow Dash has made mistakes along the way as well. But she admitted it. She demonstrated she knew what she did was wrong. She took responsibility for her actions, and was prepared for whatever punishment the team decided, up to being kicked out.

Lightning Dust took no responsibility. She didn’t care who she hurt to get ahead then, and still doesn’t now. And as long as that’s true, she doesn’t deserve another chance.

Yes, there are options for punishing military personnel beyond kicking them out. That doesn’t mean they won’t do it if the situation calls for it. Especially in the case of recruits. In fact, according to an article by U.S. Army Sergeant Michael Volkin, there are three big reasons recruits are sent home without finishing basic training.

1. You’re an egotistical maniac.
2. You’re not joining for the right reasons.
3. You refuse to be helped.
   And when you look at Lightning Dust’s behavior… at how she’ll risk others to make herself look better and does what she does to show off and at no time thinks of anyone but herself and how great she’s going to be… it’s really clear that all three of those conditions apply to her.

They were absolutely right to kick her out. Given her attitude and behavior, it was likely inevitable.

Only to people determined not to see it.

I cannot spell this out any more clearly than I already have. Rainbow Dash told Lightning Dust immediately after saving her friends from the tornado that she sent the team into tailspins. Lightning’s comment in “The Washouts” is also a literal one. That’s what the “Actually, yeah, really” part was about. Lightning Dust did affect the other trainees, and the characters themselves outright say so.

You are entirely wrong here.

When your intent is to show off, and you almost kill someone doing it, the fact that almost killing someone wasn’t intended is as meaningless as what it was you did intend to do. Neither matter in comparison to what you did.

Right. I’m sure that her egocentric, doesn’t care what happens to others personality (that still exists in “The Washouts”) would have been perfect for teamwork. Despite the fact that her time working with a team was mainly about risking the lives of others for her own personal glory.

And all Lightning Dust had to do was apologize. Or show she cared at all before the commanding officer called her out. Or really do anything that indicated she wasn’t a complete self serving narcissist.

Spitfire’s gain really.

One is a group of recruits, the other is a full fledged precision flying team. There is a world of difference between the two. So no, you still have not proven anything.

It’s a little hard to call Lightning a scapegoat when she’s entirely guilty and the one who instigated what happened.

Don’t put it all on Spitfire. Lightning’s entire team of fellow trainees saw what she did and how little she cared. If anyone put her in the position she’s in, it’s herself.

Avoiding Dashies eyes and biting her lips are signs of guilt.
And there is still the regretful look BEFORE she was expelled.

She started off over it. Her behavior in “The Washouts” only hammers home how little she actually did care.

She admitted that she made a mistake.

I don’t really care how talented she is. When it became apparent that she’d put others at risk merely to show off and didn’t care at all when they got hurt as a result of her actions, she demonstrated quite clearly that she in no way deserved to be a Wonderbolt. They were entirely right to kick her out.

No, they were not.
Especially since other ponies got away scot-free with worse (Dashie).
The right thing would would have been to give her a chance to make up for her mistake.

Spitfire: “I’ve drummed flyers out of the ‘Bolts for less.”
Rainbow Dash: “I know, and I’m ready for whatever punishment you want.”

I’m also pretty sure any real life military organization would do the same to a trainee who put civilian lives and their team at risk and demonstrated an utter lack of concern or guilt at having done so.

No.
Click here.

1. You’re an egotistical maniac.  
2. You’re not joining for the right reasons.  
3. You refuse to be helped.  
   And when you look at Lightning Dust’s behavior… at how she’ll risk others to make herself look better and does what she does to show off and at no time thinks of anyone but herself and how great she’s going to be… it’s really clear that all three of those conditions apply to her.
    
   They were absolutely right to kick her out. Given her attitude and behavior, it was likely inevitable.
    
    
   @genervt  

Denying it doesn’t make it any less true.

And also not wrong.

Lightning Dust literally admits it affected them.

Lightning Dust: "Me and her, we blew everypony out of the sky." 
Scootaloo: "Really?" 
Lightning Dust: "Actually, yeah, really! All that wind was totally dangerous, but we had fun, right?" 

So again, you are provably wrong.

She was just saying that she and Dashie were the best fliers at the academy by far (and she was right about that).
Nothing else.

Her intentions do not matter here. She chose to go down that path despite nothing about it being necessary, so she bears the responsibility for its failure.

Intentions do matter, as I told you often enough.

The only thing that Spitfire WASTED was a terrific flier with the potential to become a model Wonderbolt and a credit to the academy.

All that she had to do is to give it a try and put some effort in doing her job but of course her autographs were more important than helping one of her best cadets.
But that is Spitfires loss.

No, you didn’t. And the Wonderbolts practicing as a team is not the same as trainees running basic exercises at all.

Yes, I did.
And there is still no difference.

Spitfire isn’t the only one who could have said something. No one else on the base indicates there was an issue with Twilight’s balloon coming in where it did, and there are no signs or barriers or guards to indicate that either.

That is not Dustys responsibility.
Of course Spitfire could have taken responsibilty for her mistakes.
But why should she when she has a perfect scapegoat at hoof?

And Lightning can have her second chance when she deserves it.

It is impossible to earn something if you just get kicked out instead of being put on probation so that you can make up for your mistakes and improve yourself.
Thanks a lot, Spitfire.

Looking peeved over getting called out isn’t a slip of her façade. She’s just thinks she’s being treated unfairly, despite everyone there having every reason in the world to be angry at her.

It’s quite clear that, despite almost killing a group of ponies, the only thing that actually upsets her in that scene is being called out for it.

She started off over it. Her behavior in “The Washouts” only hammers home how little she actually did care.

I don’t really care how talented she is. When it became apparent that she’d put others at risk merely to show off and didn’t care at all when they got hurt as a result of her actions, she demonstrated quite clearly that she in no way deserved to be a Wonderbolt. They were entirely right to kick her out.

I’m also pretty sure any real life military organization would do the same to a trainee who put civilian lives and their team at risk and demonstrated an utter lack of concern or guilt at having done so.

Denying it doesn’t make it any less true.

Lightning Dust literally admits it affected them.

Lightning Dust: "Me and her, we blew everypony out of the sky." 
Scootaloo: "Really?" 
Lightning Dust: "Actually, yeah, really! All that wind was totally dangerous, but we had fun, right?" 

So again, you are provably wrong.

Her intentions do not matter here. She chose to go down that path despite nothing about it being necessary, so she bears the responsibility for its failure.

The only thing Spitfire lost was a reckless showoff too egotistical to ever have been able to function as part of a precision team like the Wonderbolts. A pony so unconcerned with what happens to others (so long as she looks good) that she guilt pressured a filly into an impossibly dangerous and untested stunt her first day on team.

Nothing of value was lost indeed.

No, you didn’t. And the Wonderbolts practicing as a team is not the same as trainees running basic exercises at all.

Spitfire isn’t the only one who could have said something. No one else on the base indicates there was an issue with Twilight’s balloon coming in where it did, and there are no signs or barriers or guards to indicate that either.

And Lightning can have her second chance when she deserves it.

Carried away is one thing. Endangering others and showing zero concern over that fact is another one altogether.

She is playing it cool.
There are still times when her facade slips.

She didn’t care when she did it, she didn’t care when they chastised her for almost killing a group of ponies, and she didn’t care in “The Washouts” when Rainbow Dash brings up the situation that got her kicked out. She simply doesn’t care.

At The Washouts she is long over it.

She was talented and rhe incident was an accident.
It would have been no problem to put her on probation, especially since Dashie got away with worse.
Kicking her out was not right.

Or she never cared in the first place which, based on her attitude at the time and what she literally says in the episode, seems far more likely.

Or not.

I provided you with a quote from the episode that clearly showed the other trainees were affected by her stunt. So no, you are wrong.

They were not affected by the tornado.
I am right.

Lightning Dust: “Me and her, we blew everypony out of the sky.”
Scootaloo: “Really?”
Lightning Dust: “Actually, yeah, really! All that wind was totally dangerous, but we had fun, right?”

And we can continue to go back and forth on this ad nauseam, but when the intent was literally showing off and the outcome was almost killing five other ponies, her intentions simply do not matter. This isn’t something you can justify by insisting it wasn’t what she planned. Her stunt was risky and completely unnecessary, and nothing about what she intended to do changes the fact that she bears the responsibility for that failure.

Intentions always matter.
The tornado was a mistake but still an accident.

Attitudes can change for the better.
She clearly respected Spitfire and Dashie so of course additional training would have helped.
Not that Spitfire bothered trying and so she lost a promising and terrific flier with the potential to become an amazing Wonderbolt.
Her loss.

You proved nothing. And just because she says it elsewhere, for an entirely different set of circumstances, does not make it applicable wherever you want it to be.

I proved you wrong.
Training is training, there is no different set of circumstances.

Then she should have said something, like she did in the other episode. The fact that there were no indicators or signs, and that not a single pony there even hints that balloon was where it shouldn’t be, invalidates that argument as far as I’m concerned.

Yes, she should.
There are many things that Spitfire should have done but never did.
Giving Dusty her second chance is only one of them.

It is her fault for creating the tornado though. Had she and Rainbow just kept doing it the normal way, where they still could have finished in record time, there never would have been a problem.

Dusty is is neither the first nor the last pony that got carried away on one occasion.
Dashie should be able to relate.

Oh give me a break. She’s not saving face with anyone at that point. She’s literally surrounded by the entire team of visibly annoyed trainees her tornado put at risk, being told what almost happened, and her reaction is to shrug it off entirely.

 
She is playing it cool.  
There are still times when her facade slips.  

 
 

She didn’t care when she did it, she didn’t care when they chastised her for almost killing a group of ponies, and she didn’t care in “The Washouts” when Rainbow Dash brings up the situation that got her kicked out. She simply doesn’t care.

Yet.

If so, it suggests she thought she was so talented that even almost killing someone due to recklessness wouldn’t make them throw her out.

Which is all the more reason they were right to do so.

Or she never cared in the first place which, based on her attitude at the time and what she literally says in the episode, seems far more likely.

I provided you with a quote from the episode that clearly showed the other trainees were affected by her stunt. So no, you are wrong.

And we can continue to go back and forth on this ad nauseam, but when the intent was literally showing off and the outcome was almost killing five other ponies, her intentions simply do not matter. This isn’t something you can justify by insisting it wasn’t what she planned. Her stunt was risky and completely unnecessary, and nothing about what she intended to do changes the fact that she bears the responsibility for that failure.

Her attitude would never have made her a great Wonderbolt. She clearly doesn’t care about her teammates or anyone other than herself, and if having almost killed a group of ponies wasn’t enough to make her consider her rash actions, no amount of training would have either. They were entirely in the right to drum her out.

You proved nothing. And just because she says it elsewhere, for an entirely different set of circumstances, does not make it applicable wherever you want it to be.

Then she should have said something, like she did in the other episode. The fact that there were no indicators or signs, and that not a single pony there even hints that balloon was where it shouldn’t be, invalidates that argument as far as I’m concerned.

It is her fault for creating the tornado though. Had she and Rainbow just kept doing it the normal way, where they still could have finished in record time, there never would have been a problem.

Again, you are missing the point. If she actually didn’t see it happen (which I find highly debatable in the first place), her reaction upon being told what she did should not have been to dismiss it like it was nothing. Regardless of whether she saw it happen or not, once she knew she put lives at risk, any decent individual would have had some reaction to indicate remorse or regret for having done that. She did not. She doesn’t even pretend to feel guilty over it. She simply doesn’t care, and no amount of “but she didn’t see!” changes that fact.

It is called saving face.
It is not easy admitting a mistake, especially in front of the whole academy.

Oh give me a break. She’s not saving face with anyone at that point. She’s literally surrounded by the entire team of visibly annoyed trainees her tornado put at risk, being told what almost happened, and her reaction is to shrug it off entirely.  

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She didn’t care when she did it, she didn’t care when they chastised her for almost killing a group of ponies, and she didn’t care in “The Washouts” when Rainbow Dash brings up the situation that got her kicked out. She simply doesn’t care.
 
 
@genervt  

You can believe what you want; the fact remains that the Washouts only endanger themselves.
Nothing what they do endangers bystanders.

Her completely shocked face when she got kicked out says something else.
She did not saw it coming.

Plus we know from her comment when Dash confronts her in “The Washouts” that she still, at that time, doesn’t really care about the lives she endangered.

That was a long time ago and she moved on.

Wrong.

No.
Right.

Her intentions were to show off, and the results were her almost killing a group of ponies. So no, her intentions do not matter in the slightest, no matter how many times you say they do.

Intentions do matter, no matter how many times you try to deny it.
And her intention was to impress (that would have helped not only her but also Dashie).

And you absolutely should kick out even talented fliers if they indicate they have no regard for the safety or well being of anyone around them. This is a precision flight team she’s trying to get into. The members need to know they can rely on each other. By her actions and attitude, Lightning Dust is fundamentally unfit to be a member in any capacity.

No, you don´t kick out a talented flier because of her first offence, especially if she is an inexperienced cadet whose training has just begun.
Instead you give her additional training and guidance so that she can learn from her mistakes and improve herself.
That is the idea of training.
You cannot hold a new cadet to the same standards as a full-fledged Wonderbolt.
An expulsion is only the last resort if everything else failed.
Within time Dusty would have become a great Wonderbolt but of course her captain could not be bothered to do her job.

I already proved you wrong.
Just because Spitfire cannot be be bothered to enforce her own rules it doesn´t mean they do not exist.

Again, Spitfire stated that in a different episode with entirely different circumstances. She did not mention it here, so it is irrelevant to this matter.

Violating MILITARY airspace is never irrelevant.

There is nothing indicating the area was restricted. And it’s not like they couldn’t have put up a sign. Pegasi can build entire houses on clouds. Or heck, post guards. People keep comparing it to a military base, but even they put up fences and signs and guards.

It is not Dustys responsibility to do Spitfires job.
And it is not her fault that she is not omniscient and did not know about the balloon.

Again, you are missing the point. If she actually didn’t see it happen (which I find highly debatable in the first place), her reaction upon being told what she did should not have been to dismiss it like it was nothing. Regardless of whether she saw it happen or not, once she knew she put lives at risk, any decent individual would have had some reaction to indicate remorse or regret for having done that. She did not. She doesn’t even pretend to feel guilty over it. She simply doesn’t care, and no amount of “but she didn’t see!” changes that fact.

She openly admits to ignoring all established safety rules, and was unequivocally shown to have no concerns over the collateral damage she caused with her Wonderbolt’s Academy stunt. I do not for one second believe her show is audience safe, or that she would care if it wasn’t.

I doubt that. Lightning’s been called up by the commanding officer and is flanked by two frowning instructors. Considering the conversation she had with Rainbow Dash after she called her out, I’d like to think she’s at least smart enough to sense she is in trouble.

Plus we know from her comment when Dash confronts her in “The Washouts” that she still, at that time, doesn’t really care about the lives she endangered.

There is if it ends with you wiping out the rest of your class and almost killing five ponies.

Wrong.

Her intentions were to show off, and the results were her almost killing a group of ponies. So no, her intentions do not matter in the slightest, no matter how many times you say they do.

And you absolutely should kick out even talented fliers if they indicate they have no regard for the safety or well being of anyone around them. This is a precision flight team she’s trying to get into. The members need to know they can rely on each other. By her actions and attitude, Lightning Dust is fundamentally unfit to be a member in any capacity.

It clearly does, or she would have mentioned something at the time.

She didn’t, despite it being one of the first things she says during the team practice in that other episode.

So until I see a shred of evidence to the contrary, it only applies to the Wonderbolt’s team practice.

Again, Spitfire stated that in a different episode with entirely different circumstances. She did not mention it here, so it is irrelevant to this matter.

There is nothing indicating the area was restricted. And it’s not like they couldn’t have put up a sign. Pegasi can build entire houses on clouds. Or heck, post guards. People keep comparing it to a military base, but even they put up fences and signs and guards.

How is she supposed to react to something she did not see?
After all, her first reaction to being called out was surprise.

At the time of The Washouts she made sure that she didn´t endanger her audience, only herself.
Which is within her rights.

That is regret.
And no, at this point she did not see her expulsion coming.

Fine, let’s consider what she intended to do. She intended to turn a situation where she and Rainbow Dash were already way ahead and absolutely winning against every other trainee into an even bigger display of how much better she was than everyone else.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Now let’s consider what happened. She lost control of the thing she chose to create to do that, sent the rest of the trainees spinning out of control, and nearly killed five ponies.

The trainees were not affected, only 5 ponies that were not supposed to be there.

Rainbow Dash: A hoof bump? Seriously? You made me clip my wing. You sent half of our class into serious tailspins on the obstacle course. You unleashed a tornado that nearly demolished my friends!

So yes, her intentions are irrelevant. They were selfish and short sighted and only really confirm how reckless she is, and how much disregard she has for the safety and well being of others around her.

Once again, intentions are never irrelevant.
And some additional training and guidance would have been enough to prevent such an incident in future.
But of course we rather kick talented fliers out instead of helping them to improve and make up for their mistakes.

No, I’m going by what we see in the respective episodes. Spitfire knows Rainbow’s friends are there. Rainbow tells her they almost died, and later on she sees them all together. And nowhere in that time do we get any comments indicating they aren’t allowed to be there, or that trainee practice is off limits, or anything like that. Whereas in the Wonderbolt’s team practice it is mentioned almost immediately.

So until we get some kind of confirmation that the academy doesn’t allow visitation during the trainee lessons, that protocol is not applicable to the academy situation.

You can repeat that as often as you want, it will still be wrong.
No guests are allowed during training.
It doesn´t matter if are cadets, reservists of full-fledged Wonderbolts.

There is literally nothing that indicates that the area where Twilight’s balloon appeared was restricted somehow. No one comments on it either. Frankly the whole thing comes across as utter fabrication by people desperate to pretend Lightning Dust doesn’t actually bear the full burden of responsibility for her negligent and dangerous actions.

For the last time; Spitfire herself stated that.
If Twily had permission to enter the cadets would have been informed about that.
And just because Dusty is not blameless it doesn´t mean that she is the only one to blame.
No matter how much you wish it would be so.

Once again, it doesn’t matter if she missed it or not, her reaction to what happened is what’s important. And that reaction, upon having what she did spelled out for her, was literally not to care at all about having knocked every other trainee out of the sky and almost killed a group of ponies. And it wasn’t about saving face over being called out, because when she returns with the Washouts, she still doesn’t care.

Yeah, she looks really broken up over what she did.

 

 
That is regret.  
And no, at this point she did not see her expulsion coming.
 
 

Fine, let’s consider what she intended to do. She intended to turn a situation where she and Rainbow Dash were already way ahead and absolutely winning against every other trainee into an even bigger display of how much better she was than everyone else.

Now let’s consider what happened. She lost control of the thing she chose to create to do that, sent the rest of the trainees spinning out of control, and nearly killed five ponies.

So yes, her intentions are irrelevant. They were selfish and short sighted and only really confirm how reckless she is, and how much disregard she has for the safety and well being of others around her.

Well, right up until it nearly killed a bunch of ponies.

No, I’m going by what we see in the respective episodes. Spitfire knows Rainbow’s friends are there. Rainbow tells her they almost died, and later on she sees them all together. And nowhere in that time do we get any comments indicating they aren’t allowed to be there, or that trainee practice is off limits, or anything like that. Whereas in the Wonderbolt’s team practice it is mentioned almost immediately.

So until we get some kind of confirmation that the academy doesn’t allow visitation during the trainee lessons, that protocol is not applicable to the academy situation.

There is literally nothing that indicates that the area where Twilight’s balloon appeared was restricted somehow. No one comments on it either. Frankly the whole thing comes across as utter fabrication by people desperate to pretend Lightning Dust doesn’t actually bear the full burden of responsibility for her negligent and dangerous actions.

Dusty reappeared some after everything already happened, it is not unlikely that she missed it.
Trying to save face is not an ideal but a relatable reaction when she was called out in front of the other cadets, especially since nopony got hurt.

She showed remorse before she was kicked out (at a time where did not expected to be expelled).

Once again, intentions are never irrelevant.
There was absolutely no justification to humiliate and expell her for her first offence without any warning or chance to redeem herself.
Especially if there are many less severe measures and punishments that would have sufficed.

And as we can see by Spitfires reaction she had no problem with the idea of a tornado.

The Wonderbolt’s practice is entirely dissimilar to the trainees. And if that was a rule at the time, Spitfire should have mentioned it. As it is, until it is confirmed otherwise, only the team practice has a guest protocol.

Now you are just making things up.
One last time, guests are not allowed during training exercises.

They were on restricted academy area during training violating military airspace.
Of course they can visit but not unannounced, without permission and during training.
And if they hadn´t done that at the worst possible moment they wouldn’t have even been at risk.

Rainbow tells her that her friends could have been smashed to pieces. Lightning’s response, “Yeah, but they weren’t, right?”, certainly makes it look like she was aware of that. But again, even if she wasn’t (and there is no reason to believe that’s true), no one’s reaction to having almost killed an entire group of individuals should be to shrug it off as an unimportant side note. This is not a complicated issue. She nearly killed other ponies through recklessness, and reacted to hearing about it like it was entirely unimportant. No decent individual does that.

The only time she looked even remotely upset was after she was kicked out, i.e., when what she did actually affected her life in some way. If she had actually felt remorse, she would have shown it well in advance of that, when she heard what she did.

No, her intentions are entirely irrelevant here. All that matters is what she did. I mean, if I’m trying to show off by driving recklessly and I hit and almost kill a pedestrian, no judge in the world would be right to let me off on the basis of what I intended to happen. Especially if my reaction to the accident was to act like what I did wasn’t important.

I know it’s not the full quote. The effectiveness is not the issue I was trying to point out. The fact that it was excessive is.

There was no reason for her to use a tornado. There was nothing to gain from it. It was entirely about showing off, and her choice to do so was as excessive as it was dangerous.

The Wonderbolt’s practice is entirely dissimilar to the trainees. And if that was a rule at the time, Spitfire should have mentioned it. As it is, until it is confirmed otherwise, only the team practice has a guest protocol.

They were nowhere near the obstacle course. There was no indication, and no one ever says, that where they actually were was forbidden. And the idea that a training facility would have no options or ways for non-pegasi parents of cadets to visit is ludicrous. There is simply no reason to assume Twilight and her friends were the ones at fault here, and again, if Lightning hadn’t felt the need to show off, they wouldn’t have even been at risk.

I´m pretty sure that she refered to the clouds.

But it really doesn’t matter either way. If she did see what happened, she didn’t lift a hoof to help and clearly doesn’t care in the slightest that her stunt almost killed someone. If she didn’t see, her complete lack of concern or guilt upon finding out also shows that she clearly doesn’t care in the slightest that she almost killed someone.

Or that she was trying to safe face.
She showed some signs of guilt like biting her lips.
She could have reacted better but that does not excuse her unfair public humiliation and expulsion; especially since her behaviour was encouraged all the time before.

Intentions always matter.
Especially she was not malicious and did not intend to harm anypony.
All she wanted was to impress her superiors.

And even Spitfire recognizes it as being overkill.

Rainbow Dash: "That’s why I’m here, ma’am. Lightning Dust decided to use a tornado." 
Spitfire: "A bit excessive for cloud-busting."

Nice try.
That is not the full quote and you know it.

Spitfire: A bit excessive for cloud-busting. But judging from your time, it was obviously an effective tactic.

If the tornado had worked Spitfire would have praised her and Dashie to the skies for breaking another academy record.

Yes it does. And as her warning on protocol was only mentioned at the practice session for the actual Wonderbolts, and not the academy, that is the only place it applies.

Training is training.
No guests allowed; Spitfires herself said that and nothing else.
And that training was on academy area.

There is no indication Rainbow’s friends are violating restricted airspace though. They aren’t even on the obstacle course. The tornado cuts a path right through it and the area the instructors are before heading out where it runs into Twilight’s balloon. For all we know they could have been in whatever constitutes a visitors waiting area before getting caught up in it.

No.
The academy is a restricted and isolated military area far above the ground.
A balloon does not enter just like that.
Dusty had absolutely no reason to expect unauthorized and unannounced visitors.
And if they had announced themselves it would have been Spitfires duty to inform her cadets.
That obviously did not happen.

The conversation immediately after Rainbow’s rescue certainly seems to imply she did.

Lightning Dust: "That… was… awesome!" 
Rainbow Dash: "Awesome? My friends could have been smashed to pieces!" 
Lightning Dust: "Yeah, but they weren’t, right? Can’t say the same for the clouds. We totally wiped them out with that tornado."

But it really doesn’t matter either way. If she did see what happened, she didn’t lift a hoof to help and clearly doesn’t care in the slightest that her stunt almost killed someone. If she didn’t see, her complete lack of concern or guilt upon finding out also shows that she clearly doesn’t care in the slightest that she almost killed someone.

It doesn’t matter if she was doing it maliciously or not. It doesn’t matter that she was overly ambitious. What matters is that she chose to create it in a situation where it wasn’t warranted or even needed, purely to show off, and then didn’t show the slightest bit of concern, or guilt, or even responsibility when she lost control and almost killed a group of ponies. Whatever her intentions, whatever she thought herself capable of, failing and having no remorse for the ponies she hurt or could have hurt as a result of her actions is the big issue here, and the only significant fact.

And even Spitfire recognizes it as being overkill.

Rainbow Dash: "That’s why I’m here, ma’am. Lightning Dust decided to use a tornado." 
Spitfire: "A bit excessive for cloud-busting."

Spitfire: A bit excessive for cloud-busting. But judging from your time, it was obviously an effective tactic.

And while she may have been fine with it when she thought they had controlled, even she knows no stunt should come at the expense of others.

Yes it does. And as her warning on protocol was only mentioned at the practice session for the actual Wonderbolts, and not the academy, that is the only place it applies.

There is no indication Rainbow’s friends are violating restricted airspace though. They aren’t even on the obstacle course. The tornado cuts a path right through it and the area the instructors are before heading out where it runs into Twilight’s balloon. For all we know they could have been in whatever constitutes a visitors waiting area before getting caught up in it.

We don´t even know if Dusty even saw what happened.
After all she reappeared some time after everything was already over.

Lightning Dust: “That… was… awesome!”
Rainbow Dash: “Awesome? My friends could have been smashed to pieces!”
Lightning Dust: “Yeah, but they weren’t, right? Can’t say the same for the clouds. We totally wiped them out with that tornado.”

Of course it matters what she intended.
She was reckless, overambitious and overestimated herself when she tried to impress her superiors but she was not malicious.
Besides, Spitfire herself had no problem with the idea of a tornado.

Rainbow Dash: “That’s why I’m here, ma’am. Lightning Dust decided to use a tornado.”
Spitfire: “A bit excessive for cloud-busting.”

Once again, training is training.
It doesn´t matter if inexperienced cadets or full fledged Wonderbolts are training.

Violating an airspace does also matter.
The Mane 6 endangered themselves by doing so.
Just try it yourself on a real (miliary) airport and see what happens.

Overambitious does not excuse her complete lack of concern over what she did. No amount of ambition or instructor praise justifies her basically saying “so what?” to the fact that she almost killed an entire group of ponies over a trivial exercise she and Rainbow Dash were already winning hands down. The minute she put pointless grandstanding and personal glory over any sort of concern for anyone else, she was entirely and completely in the wrong.

And no, it really doesn’t matter what she intended. But even if it did, there was still no actual need for her to do it, and nothing to gain from such an extreme choice. It was done purely to show off, and even if it had gone perfectly the goal it was meant to achieve would have been utterly inconsequential compared to the dangers posed by the attempt.

No, a training session involving the full Wonderbolts team is an entirely different situation than one involving potential recruits, and Spitfire never says guests aren’t allowed at the latter. And again, it doesn’t matter that she didn’t know a balloon was going to be there. Were it not for her recklessness, it would never have been an issue in the first place.

@Background Pony #4D59

She deliberately created it in a situation where it wasn’t needed, and didn’t show an iota of concern over having it spin out of control.

She was overambitious, wanted to impress her superiors, underestimated the tornado and Spitfires constant praise did not help.

It doesn’t matter what she intended. Lightning Dust’s behavior was irresponsible bordering on criminally negligent.

It does matter what she intended.
She may haveen reckless but not malicious and the tornado was still an accident.

She said that at the Wonderbolts’ practice session, not the academy. It is an entirely different situation, and not inherently applicable to Lightning’s screw up. So once again, there is nothing to indicate that Twilight and the rest were in any way in an area they weren’t supposed to be in, and they wouldn’t have been in danger had Lightning Dust not felt the need to show off unnecessarily.

Training is training.
And that training was at the academy area.
And guests are not allowed during training.
And even if we ignore that Dusty still couldn´t have known that she would lose control over the tornado and that a balloon would appear out of nowhere at the worst possible moment.

She deliberately created it in a situation where it wasn’t needed, and didn’t show an iota of concern over having it spin out of control.

It doesn’t matter what she intended. Lightning Dust’s behavior was irresponsible bordering on criminally negligent.

She said that at the Wonderbolts’ practice session, not the academy. It is an entirely different situation, and not inherently applicable to Lightning’s screw up. So once again, there is nothing to indicate that Twilight and the rest were in any way in an area they weren’t supposed to be in, and they wouldn’t have been in danger had Lightning Dust not felt the need to show off unnecessarily.

Yet. And again, yet.

She thought she could control the tornado but she overestimated herself.
Losing control was completely unintentional so it was of course an accident.

Rainbow Dash: “You made me clip my wing. You sent half of our class into serious tailspins on the obstacle course. You unleashed a tornado that nearly demolished my friends!”
Lightning Dust: “Yeah, and?”

Spitfire herself stated that guest are not allowed during training.
Which also make sense for safety reasons.

Spitfire: Okay. Which pony broke protocol and invited guests to our training exercises?!

Nothing what the Washouts have done could be dangerous for the audience.
It is not like Dusty started another tornado.