Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

Commune
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There’s nothing like going back to this hellthread and seeing 10m long wall of text on my screen
 
@MxQuinn  
Do you think he fucking cares ?  
Do you think any right winger cares ?  
They only thing they care about is the imprisonment and extermination of trans people, alongside other minorities
Background Pony #2F82
@MxQuinn  
“America first” isn’t Ultra-nationalism. if your country is facing major problems, then you should focus on those problems first and the problems of other countries second(America first doesn’t mean we just downright stop helping other countries), just like how a sick doctor or nurse shouldn’t be treating someone who is sick.
Violet Rose in The Rain
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@MxQuinn
“America first” isn’t Ultra-nationalism. if your country is facing major problems, then you should focus on those problems first and the problems of other countries second(America first doesn’t mean we just downright stop helping other countries), just like how a sick doctor or nurse shouldn’t be treating someone who is sick.
 
So America deciding not to enter World War Two was because it wanted to focus on its comparatively trivial issues instead of helping the European Allies, who were fighting for their survival against the Axis Powers?
Background Pony #2F82
@Violet Rose in The Rain  
That’s Isolationism, not specifically “America First”, Plus there’s nothing that’s both immediate and threatening as world war 2, plus it was Japan who attacked first and then the Axis declared war on the US when the US declared war on Japan for attacking them.
 
Using World War 2 as a comparison is inaccurate because America at the time wanted little to do with the rest of the world in terms of politics and wars while the Modern Day USA is very interested and Very involved. If “America First” was the same as Isolationism, then you wouldn’t really see Trump doing much with North Korea as arguably if you just leave them alone and don’t protect South Korea then North Korea probably wouldn’t bother an Isolationist US.
 
But as we can both see, “America First” and Isolationism aren’t the same thing. If there was a major war going on(Or something equivalent to that), of Course we would take action, but there haven’t been any
AaronMk
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Sky funeral
Remember that time the National Fruit Company’s land was threatened by the president of Guatemala who offered to buy up their unused lands at the fair market value they posted on their Guatemalan taxes of a dollar per acre, so United Fruit ran sobbing to America so we murdered the ever loving shit out of their president to protect national company interest in Latin America?
 
Good times.
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@Background Pony #89DB  
To note, the US had spent years giving material and financial aid to The Allies; they weren’t directly involved, but they were a big reason why Britain didn’t collapse, and were fairly directly involved in fighting Japan in China. Combined with a massive arms buildup, the US’ “non involvement” was very much pretend and just ticking down until a proper casus belli the public opinion could fully support.
Background Pony #2F82
@The Smiling Pony  
Yeah, I didn’t mention first part because didn’t want to mention too much and get off topic. Didn’t know about the second part though. You’re basically saying The US was already fighting the Japanese in some unofficial way before pearl harbor? Like volunteers?
AaronMk
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Sky funeral
@Background Pony #89DB
To note, the US had spent years giving material and financial aid to The Allies; they weren’t directly involved, but they were a big reason why Britain didn’t collapse, and were fairly directly involved in fighting Japan in China. Combined with a massive arms buildup, the US’ “non involvement” was very much pretend and just ticking down until a proper casus belli the public opinion could fully support.
 
To expand on this point, it was the same thing we were doing during WW1: spending time and money on supplying allied powers and cutting off the Germans from the same ports the British and French could use all they wanted for their war time economic needs. We were very much involved in the wars in Europe before we put boots on French soil, let alone staging them in the UK. While the Monroe Doctrine was a sort of dream of independence and positioning the nation as irrelevant to European affairs as a matter of course it very much came out of fashion as the US grew in global importance.
 
Someone else’s issues are not outside the purview of America. Either being directly related to something at home or related to something we’ve done it’d be immature to pretend otherwise.
Background Pony #2F82
@MxQuinn  
Considering that’s a wiki page and it isn’t well Developed I don’t really trust it that much.
 
Let me ask you this, If you were sick, and someone else is sick, would you be giving them most of your medicine that you might need or do need when they could get what they need from another source instead of only taking medicine from you? Like how some people think Other countries should pay their fair share for Nato instead of the US just paying for most of it. Is it really ultranationalism when it’s the logical thing to do? After all, You need to support yourself if you’re going to support others.
 
That term from that wiki page just seems a little too broad for me to trust, plus you shouldn’t be using Wikis to try to prove your claims.
Background Pony #2F82
@MxQuinn  
I was using it as an example. I am listening to your conversation and I don’t see how I’m apparently not. Honestly, I had enough of this conversation, Goodnight.
Snail Pie
Artist -

@Background Pony #89DB  
I said, “Except the sources that [the Wikipedia page is] using are the Oxford and Collins dictionaries. ‘It’s Wikipedia!’ isn’t an argument; discount the sources that it cites,” and you only replied, “And Almost anyone can edit a wikipage.” You didn’t discount the Oxford and Collins dictionaries; you just relied on a genetic fallacy and then when I asked you to address my argument – discount the actual sources the Wikipedia page used – you doubled down about how, “Almost anyone can edit a wikipage,” when it was completely irrelevant because at that point I wasn’t even talking about Wikipedia (nor was I defending it as a platform); I was talking about the Oxford and Collins dictionaries.
 
What about your claim that the definition I put forward “seems a little too broad for [you] to trust”. You could put forward a better definition of ultra-nationalism, citing actual ultra-nationalists, but you haven’t; you haven’t met the burden of proof. I’m going to use the dictionary definitions unless you demonstrate that they aren’t adequate.
 
You then asked me to focus on your point regarding US’s relation to NATO when it had absolutely nothing to do with what I actually said; I said absolutely nothing about the US’s position regarding NATO being ultra-nationalist; all I said was that the idea of always putting “America First” is ultra-nationalist. But let’s act as if I said that the US’s position regarding NATO was ultra-nationalist. You essentially said that it wasn’t ultra-nationalist because it was, to you, rational(“Is it really ultranationalism when it’s the logical thing to do?”). Whether ultra-nationalism is rational or not had nothing to do with the definition that I put forward; nowhere in the definition was the claim that ultra-nationalism is irrational; extremism is not necessarily irrational (and, in fact, what counts as extremism is dependent on the society’s Overton window, whereas whether something is rational or not is objective).
 
You said, “I am listening to your conversation and I don’t see how I’m apparently not,” but I never said that you weren’t listening to me; I said that you weren’t addressing my argument.
Natry
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Constant Lurker
@MxQuinn  
The problem is people can still misquote the sources they cite when editing. It would be better if you cite the real sources yourself instead of Wikipedia and expecting others to do the legwork.
 
Regardless, Oxford’s definition was a little vague. I think a better definition is ““extreme devotion to or advocacy of the interests of a nation, especially regardless of the effect on any other nations.[](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ultranationalism) “America First” isn’t necessarily ultranationalism. It is only fair to attend to your own needs before others. It is only when pursuing your interests hurts others, like ousting Presidents to benefits American companies.
Natry
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Constant Lurker
@MxQuinn  
I thought the we were arguing the idea of “America First” in general. Trump’s quote can definitely be interpreted as ultranationalism.
Snail Pie
Artist -

@Natry  
I was specifically quoting Trump. The context of the discussion was that Kyle said that Trump was a conservative and I said that I was pretty sure that ultra-nationalism (“America First”) and national rebirth (“Make America Great Again”) were not central tenets of conservative thought. I was basically implying that Trump is a fascist and that while, yeah, Kyle may agree with him on many things, conservatism and what Trump believes are not the same thing (even though conservatism and fascism tend to share a lot more common ground than, let’s say, conservatism and social democracy).
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