Alternate History Thread

ghostfacekiller39
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@BadgingBadger  
France wasn’t in a very good position at all with their internal politics at the time the Rhineland was re-militarized, so I can’t imagine that going over very well. It could work, but it could have huge repercussions internally. It might have even been enough to be a giant stepping stone by Thorez to kickstart a Communist Revolution in France, given they were no small thing at that time there and were diametrically opposed to fighting Germany, leaving them pretty ripe and open from the outside. Might not be the best idea, really.
 
Even when Nazi Germany started posing a threat and invaded Poland, there was a ton of internal unrest about France doing anything and a ton of protests and whatnot. “Why die for Danzig?” and all, so even motivating them to challenge Nazi Germany once they’d proven to be a legitimate threat was a huge challenge. They didn’t really unify enough internally to fight a war until they’d already lost, in a sense.
 
That was a huge reason why they were so bowing down to Hitler - the UK as well, to a lesser extent. They could’ve won, sure, but it would’ve been a massive undertaking to just get people to do anything and WWI was still weighing heavily on both nations in a much more negative fashion than the Nazis had spun it to motivate the German populace.
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@ghostfacekiller39  
Not quite – if the french manage to pass off enough of a “mean” image against Germany before Hitler starts going geopolitically nuts, they can prevent the nazis from doing too much in Europe. Mobilizing troops to just occupy the Rhineland wouldn’t cost much – the wehrmacht was at a very frail state in 1935, perhaps worse than France in certain aspects, and even Hitler admitted his move to reoccupy the Rhineland was risky. I’m afraid Hitler would order a retreat by the time french soldiers would be spotted walking towards the Rhine.  
I’ll come forth and say that “french anti-war pacifism” is overestimated – there was a botched attempt at a far-right coup in 1934, but it almost worked as anti-estabilishment protests were nigh-uncontrollable at the time.
ghostfacekiller39
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@ghostfacekiller39
Not quite – if the french manage to pass off enough of a “mean” image against Germany
 
Ima stop you right there
 
That didn’t even work when Poland was invaded. It was still met with large amounts of resistance.
 
Why would it work then, when the only real reason they had to be threatened was the Germans restationing the military in their own land?
 
Lest we forget the amount of complacency the French military themselves had due to the protection of the maginot line and the belief that it was impenetrable.
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@ghostfacekiller39  
France had already been surpassed by Germany in 1939 when it comes to war materials, as the germans had seized czech/polish assets, and the french generals knew that an invasion of Germany would end up being a botched affair.  
Also, Germany was allied with the USSR before 1941, which means that the soviets could send supplies to the germans.
ghostfacekiller39
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@BadgingBadger  
In 1939, yes, Germany was much better off than they were 3 years prior and a much greater threat that had caused a lot of instability in Europe up until that point. But the Rhineland was remilitarized in 1936.
 
Before the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, so no Soviet friends, before the Munich agreement, so no Czech stuffs, before Italy and Germany were even getting along - hell, even before Japan had invaded China in Asia. No allies. No extra land. Nothing really particularly scary yet, even. That was the first move made externally by Nazi Germany.
 
If mobilization was met with huge problems after the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, after the Munich agreement, and after the Polish invasion, why would it work before any of that?
 
Like I said, Thorez would’ve probably just used it as a means to further the French Communist Party’s anti-establishmentism and it could’ve even led to a revolution had they reacted so pre-emptively. They had too much internally to contend with to not place themselves in a very bad position by reacting so early.
 
They could’ve beat Germany at that time. They could not have stayed stable for very long after that. If Hitler’s shittiness wasn’t a foregone conclusion, I’d argue that it could probably the smarter move to not meet the Germans at the Rhineland and try to deal with Hitler in the manner that couldn’t lead to war. As time went on it just became clear that there wouldn’t be any peace with him.
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If mobilization was met with huge problems after the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, after the Munich agreement, and after the Polish invasion, why would it work before any of that?
 
I’m afraid that french mobilisation failures were more the product of luck for Germany than anything else.  
Had Pétain seized control in the 1934 riots, he could have certainly been authorized (by himself) to reoccupy the Rhineland.  
The french army may have been a blunder as demonstrated in 1940, but it wasn’t that big a blunder just to walk across the eastern french border and enforce the points of the Versailles Treaty.
ghostfacekiller39
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@BadgingBadger  
Takeda Shingen is famous for a quote - “People are the stone walls. They are the beginning of a nation, and the end of a nation.”
 
The biggest reason the French fared so poorly in WWII was because the populace were so deadset against war to begin with. They would not budge to mobilize. Not some matter of luck, they were basically refusing to mobilize even at the outbreak. The people in France at the time would have never allowed it in a Democracy until it was too late. Which was what the previously presented scenario is assuming, given that the idea of a successful far right coup wasn’t brought up prior to just now.
 
It’s also kind of cheap to just go and try to change the previously presented scenario to involving a successful far-right coup in ‘34 as well, tbh, of course I’ll lose that argument because none of the arguments I’d been making prior could’ve possibly taken that into equation, given that, y’know, it wasn’t a thing until just now
Albus Fahrenheits

As I recall there were a few Cossacks that joined the SS during WWII. I wonder what would it take for other non-Germans to defect to their side.
 
Also, I think some Irish did help them against the Brits. Not sure.
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As I recall there were a few Cossacks that joined the SS during WWII. I wonder what would it take for other non-Germans to defect to their side.
 
Being german.  
Sincerely, if the nazis managed to defeat Russia, the most loyal slavs would end up in an apartheid-like situation while the others would end up either enslaved or deported.
DeathCloud

Agent of Shadows
@Albus Fahrenheits  
There were alot of people who defected. Maybe not to much to chance course of history but still there was more than just Cossacs. In west Soviets and Communism were bogeymen what many considered worse evil than Nazis and joined as volunteers in occupied countries. Countries under Soviets considered Germans and Axis as liberators and joined them fighting Bolsheviks. If Nazis were really only anticommunists and antisemitic without opresion on other ocupied countries they would have even more people joining them, even many russians joined them because they view Stalin worse than Hitler. Most nationalistic resistance (and third smallest) faction in Poland started working more with Germans to opose Soviets after Stalingrad knowing who was victor and future enemy of country after war.  
Some Aliied solders from their colonies (mostly UK) also defected to German army.
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@Mildgyth  
With Napoleon I remaining in power, the French would probably avoid the first empire -> Bourbon monarchy -> July monarchy -> second republic -> second empire -> third republic rollercoaster they had.
 
Also, once Napoleon I died, we’d have Napoleon II taking the throne. And who knows how that guy would’ve done. Hardly any worse than Napoleon III, methinks
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@PaskaNaakka  
Another question: what if Napoleon had won at Leipzig?  
I think he’d be able to preserve his continental empire west of the Elbe. Of course, it’s probable that he’d pack up and go for another expansion war after his empire had regrown to pre-1812 levels, but i don’t think that he would go for Russia again.
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@BadgingBadger  
I visited their old headquarters at Marienburg/Malbork castle last year, actually. Impressive place. Apparently the grandmaster of the order was the only guy in the realm with his own private toilet, if the tour guide is to be believed. I’ve got their flag on my bedroom wall because I like buying flags of places I’ve visited and I already had the Polish flag :V
 
Anyway, I don’t think their long-term prospects were all that promising at the later years. Even if they had survived the PLC, they’d have eventually been eaten up by the Swedes and the Russians. The Baltic clay is just too delicious.
 
If they had survived longer, we might see more extensive Germanization of the Terra Mariana, though. Might have had a sizable german-speaking population around the place, which could have some interesting implications for the neighbouring Prussia…
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@PaskaNaakka  
In case protestantism still comes in a “teutonic order survives” scenario, do you think they’ll be able to push through the years as a catholic state?
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@BadgingBadger  
They’d get chewed to bits by Sweden in the wars of religion that followed the reformation, especially the Thirty Years’ War. And since Dominion over the Baltic was a prime goal of both Sweden and Denmark at the time, it’s hard to see a Catholic state in that particular part of the world surviving even that far.
 
full
 
 
Unless of course they get a stalemate with Poland-Lithuania after Grunwald, and become a Polish protectorate or something wacky like that. Either way, they aren’t staying independent.
DeathCloud

Agent of Shadows
@BadgingBadger  
Teuntons are overrated. They weren’t that impressive fighting force, often beating weaker oponents and eventually being BTFO more and more if their opponents got their shit together.  
I dodn’t think winning Grunwald would help them in long run alone.
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