"floppy ears" should not be the tag for any and all ears that are not perkily up and forward

saby
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“pinned ears” used to be separate from “floppy ears”, that was changed per this topic some 7 months ago. I would have contested many of the aliases proposed there but managed to miss the topic. We also used to have “ears back” which describes the position of the ears more exactly than “floppy ears”, which applies to any ear position that droops away from the upright position.
 
This merge should not have been done. “Pinned ears” specifically refers to a pose of ears that is antithetical to “floppy ears”. It means the ears are rigidly pulled back, farther than simply having them turned backwards. Pinned ears can go flat against the neck in some cases. In horses pinned ears are a sign of impending aggression, floppy ears are a sign of snooziness.
 
If we MUST have a master tag for any and all not-up-and-forward ears, it should be named differently, and it should be implied by a few more specific tags, not be their alias.
 
This is like aliasing both “tired eyes” and “lidded eyes” to “bedroom eyes”.
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Starter of the thread you linked here. I mean, I agree, as I wrote in that thread. It was just that ears back had already been that way since a long time ago, and like you mentioned “pinned” counts as a subtype of “back” so it was inconsistent or an oversight.
 
I love me some floppy ears, and there definitely are notable non-upright non-floppy states.
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I am still salty about the angry ears one being aliased away. Floppy is good for sad ears but angry ears at least deserve a tag too, perhaps even alert ears as well.
saby
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Well, I’m glad there seems to be a baby consensus forming that “floppy ears” covering all non-upright ears is less than ideal, with no dissent thus far.
To refine my proposal, here’s my plan for floppy ears disambiguation:
  • pinned ears becomes the new main tag for ears that are drawn tightly down and back; this is neutral to any intended emotion (unlike “angry ears”), avoids confusion with ear structure (unlike “flat ears”), and reflects the word order of “floppy ears” (unlike “ears back” and “ears pinned”)
  • flat ears, angry ears, ears back, ears pinned are changed into “pinned ears” aliases
  • floppy eras, ears lowered, droopy ears, ears down remain as “floppy ears” aliases
  • “pinned ears” gains description: “ears pulled tightly down and back” or perhaps “ears flattened down and backwards”
  • “floppy ears” gains description: “ears drooping from the perky upright position”
  • folded ears idk? I think if they can be described as outright “folded” they’re more likely to have the stiff position that would point to “pinned ears”?
  • ear flop becomes alias for one ear down (if we decide to keep the one-ear variant as its own separate tag, which I think we should because asymmetric ear flops are 20 % more adorable and that’s just a fact, a science fact)
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“pinned ears” gains description: “ears pulled tightly down and back” or perhaps “ears flattened down and backwards”
I think the 2nd description is a bit easier to understand.
folded ears idk? I think if they can be described as outright “folded” they’re more likely to have the stiff position that would point to “pinned ears”?
Yeah I’d alias it to pinned ears, isn’t worth making it a separate tag.
if we decide to keep the one-ear variant as its own separate tag
I think we should, looking through the images on the tag it makes sense to keep separate.
I agree with everything else in post, just nothing else to add on them.
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@saby
I’d suggest using “floppy ears” as a parent tag that all the rest imply, for the reasons:
  1. all the images which already have that tag don’t suddenly become mis-tagged, only incompletely-tagged (ie. “floppy ears” won’t need removal from any pictures)
  2. if people already like looking for all kinds of altered ear positions, there’s still a way without knowing all the tags and doing an “or” search
Then, I’d encourage the tags to be as intuitively-named as is reasonable: “ears back” in favor of “pinned ears” because “pinned” is a synonym for “held down by something else”. Likewise, maybe “ears lowered to the sides” instead of “ears down”/“droopy ears”/“ears lowered”.

Time to be the “whatabout” devil:
  • What about creatures whose ears are normally not upright? For example, Queen Chrysalis, or lop-eared rabbits?
  • What about ears that aren’t upright due to external influence, such as from a hat >>2756831 or another pony’s interference >>2035699 >>803840?
  • What about ears that are only a little bit tilted? Exactly how much of a deviation from “upright, facing forward” qualifies? >>2755158 >>2751005 >>2753471 >>2751838 >>2324787 >>1777075
  • What about when the viewpoint makes it hard to tell if the ears are back or to the sides? >>2757380 >>1103901
  • Does it matter if the ears are back and not swiveled down >>2755892 >>1792242 >>1802428? (vs. back and down >>2756849)
  • Does it matter if the ears are to the sides and not swiveled down >>1612212 (Scootaloo and Fluttershy, not the OC)?
  • What if it’s the artist’s style to draw ponies with ears that aren’t upright, meaning the state of being flopped is not signifying any particular emotion? eg. artist:mirtash (err…I’m sure I’ve noticed this with more artists, but I can’t find them at the moment. Or maybe I’m confusing the phenomenon with artists who always draw :3 mouths.)
saby
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@Background Pony #D1CA
As for keeping “floppy ears” as a mother tag for all non-upright ear positions… I am not fond of the idea. “Floppy” implies a very specific deviation from upright, having “ears back” as its subtag would be weird and misleading. Like having “walking” be the mother tag for all locomotion including swimming, crawling, and flying.
Regarding the what-abouts:
  • naturally non-upright ears: Lop-eared creatures should not be tagged with “floppy ears” but can be tagged with a “lop eared” equivalent if we have that. If lop-ears are clearly drawn back from the neutral position “ears back” is applicable. Creatures with usually-horizontal ears can be tagged “floppy ears” or “ears back” if the ears droop/draw back from the neutral position.
  • ears pushed off normal position by accessories/bodyparts: should not be tagged “floppy ears”.
  • just a bit tilted: each separate case shall be settled by duels to first blood, as is done for disagreements on “bipedal” vs “semi-anthro”.
  • ambiguous orientation: would tag both examples “floppy ears” per the general expression/body language association. Pinned ears are associated with tenseness and unease.
  • back but not quite down: would personally tag at least 2/3 of these as “ears back”, not “floppy”
  • sides but not back/down: these look like upright, perky ears, just slid down more to the sides of the head compared to where they usually are placed and as such tilted in orientation
  • artist’s habit is to draw non-upright ears: we’ll tag what’s in the image. We do tag stuff like “missing wing” when a character only has one wing from apparent artist goof just as well when they are explicitly one-winged. (as for the :3 mouth outside of a full simplified :3 face, maybe dog lip?)
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@saby @LightningBolt
Well, it could get renamed. The point more was that it ought to be used as, or be aliased to, a parent tag - not reused or aliased for any narrower scope.
  • just a bit tilted: each separate case shall be settled by duels to first blood, as is done for disagreements on “bipedal” vs “semi-anthro”.
Most excellent. I shall have my fingerless hoof-glove at the ready for face-slapping, whilst wearing a mantle upon my human shoulders, and supporting myself with a cane so you can’t quite tell whether I’m meant to be upright or quadrupedal.
  • ambiguous orientation: would tag both examples “floppy ears” per the general expression/body language association. Pinned ears are associated with tenseness and unease.
  • back but not quite down: would personally tag at least 2/3 of these as “ears back”, not “floppy”
Do you think “back (startled, embarrassed/bashful, streamlined, lazy/relaxed/other” and “pinned (scared, angry)” ought to be distinct - or maybe, pinned implies back but not the other way around?
  • artist’s habit is to draw non-upright ears: we’ll tag what’s in the image. We do tag stuff like “missing wing” when a character only has one wing from apparent artist goof just as well when they are explicitly one-winged. (as for the :3 mouth outside of a full simplified :3 face, maybe dog lip?)
Yeah, I figured it’d be “tag what’s in the image”, just wanted to throw it out there.
I have no idea whether “dog lip” is a good name for such a tag, but you do seem to be applying it in the way I meant. (artist:dandy readily came to mind, and I’m sure I’ve seen other artists do the same)
They also happen to have drawn some in-between ears: >>2717056 >>2674467 >>2663812 >>2663151 >>2659578 >>2678050 >>2631420
This artist also has drawn quite a few indeterminate ears.

By the way, there are ears up (223), ears at angle (11+1 typo “ears aat angle”), ears forward (7), ears half up (1), and ears leaning back (1) to contemplate.
saby
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I’m not totally opposed to a main non-perky ears tag, but I’m not enthused either, because of the name issue.
Especially if it’s supposed to also apply to non-ponies with different “default” ear positions. “Non-perky ears” would be bad for many even toed ungulated whose normal ear position is horizontal, and perked ears are elevated as well as more forward. It would also be confusing for all animals with naturally lop/hanging ears.
We could go with something like “non-standard ear position” which is long and unwieldy and might never see use outside of automatic implications (and perhaps the occasional case where taggers cannot decide if the ears are back or floppy), or “expressive ears” which is more concise but probably easy to get mixed up with anything a random tagger feels accentuates an expression, including ordinary standard/perky ear positions.
We could also go ahead and split “ears back” from “floppy ears” (making them mutually exclusive, or not, although I will personally ree every time someone comes to tag my ears, that I already tagged “ears back”, as “floppy ears” as well), and tackle a possible superset tag at a later time.
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Intent only has priority if it clears up confusion versus making it worse or not being clear in the image. :ole clarifying that something that looks shippy is in fact shippy, but not that something is shippy if the image depicts nothing even close to romantic.
saby
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@rautamiekka
Part of what was achieved is defining the tags by ear position alone, not implied emotion like sadness, or effect like cuteness. If the position is ambiguous, both tags can be used.
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