Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread

Lisboeta
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

@Princess Luna
 
Posts are no longer erased left and right, so
 
“uncivil phrasing” needs a very important question - is it intended to protect real persons, or uncivil phrasing toward the characters is right out? What if it’s someone OC? what if it is a character from the show not closely associated with any author\user?
 
And I again do we even know how and when changes would be implemented? Would anyone but mods have a say? Are we here to do anything but work as a focus-group?
 
And finally you have said to a site’s user here that site’s policy will probably resemble e621 even before the first round of staff voting was finished. Would you please care to comment on your knowlege so early in the process?
Princess Luna
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@Lisboeta  
Real persons (hence “others”; not sure how to improve clarity there), and if things directed at the OC are meant to really be directed at the person the OC belongs to, that would still be a problem.  
I don’t think there’ll be a sitewide poll on this, only an internal staff poll. It would take too long and be too cumbersome to get the whole site to vote on things, and if the wording still has issues later, we can always make some refinements.  
The current plan is to try to get a staff poll going later today (once we’ve worked out details like grandfathering), and have it up at least 24 hours before implementing the rule changes.  
The e621 thing was based on the results of the first 2 image polls, as well as a previous poll whose results indicated staff were heavily against banning Aryanne outright.
Background Pony #5C8B
as well as a previous poll whose results indicated staff were heavily against banning Aryanne outright.
 
Does “outright” in this particular case mean “wholly and completely”, or does it mean “immediately or instantly”?
 
I’ve seen a few people in different threads assume it’s the latter only, when there was a talk about being against banning something outright.
 
Using the words that could be interpreted differently can cause misunderstandings and unnecessary assumptions among people.
 
EDIT:  
I got the answer that it’s The former
 
Cool! :)
Background Pony #74AE
@Princess Luna  
Regardless of how the grandfathering decision goes (which I’d like to voice my support for), maybe you could consider making a little gallery of “dos and don’ts” images to serve as examples with explanations.
Lisboeta
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

@Princess Luna
 
Why you could not publicly explain what you are going to do (and more than 24 hours in advance)?
 
About the statewide poll - it can have issues, but for now mods (who let’s say do not have really high trust) deciding policy solely between themselves is even worse. Not too many users chose to participate in all those threads (which is hard even when posts are not erased a page at a time, when threads are locked, when new rthreads appear etc.) I had at least some voice. The vast majority of the users who do not participate in forums had none.
 
Finally - why are you pushing for changes so fast? Mpd team has engaged in secret throttling, proponents of certain positions left the team - and this is the voting council that decides on the future of the site?
 
You don’t need refinements, you need a visible, transparent process for rule changes instead of lofty announcements.
Background Pony #F329
@Princess Luna  
Could you at least acknowledge the arguments i’m making instead of just ignoring the post?  
“I dont want to answer that until i talk with the others”  
Even a flat “No.” is better than silence.
Double Apple

My only issue with the site has ever been it’s refusal to tackle hatred. In this case, specifically the case of an artist who repeatedly made art of people’s OCs having sex with his, or being depicted in offensive ways, that was obvious targeted harassment. Instead of dealing with it as what it was, the mods took it as a copyright issue and said that he was legally allowed to upload the art. It was such a cold and emotionless response. And that is what I hope to see change. We’re a site made by humans, for humans, let’s put in some humanity!
So naturally, I also don’t want nazi images to be banned. But images that target gays, black people, or women? That sounds like the kind of stuff to get rid of. We need to take care not to lump a set of clothing into the idea of being an attack. Not to lump a smybol, an arm gesture, into that. Nazis are not a problem to depict, they’re not something that can cause harm. It’s spreading their message that causes harm.
 
Sure, it seems like the website hasn’t been tackling hatred. In the first place, it might be difficult for a website (a database computer with a set of software instructions that serves data to visitors) to perform a tackle (a physical action). Also, if the website was instead one-and-the-same with the people who use it, it might still be difficult for such a Derpibooru to tackle hatred - hatred, being an emotional condition, not a physical thing, isn’t available to be challenged in a physical way. Artistic grammar, so far.
 
Okay I get it, you don’t mean “tackle” literally and instead mean to say “eliminate” or “get rid of”. What you’re asking then, is that the website eliminates or gets rid of hatred. Again, there is a difficulty in doing this. Hatred is a nonpermanent emotional condition, and, to ensure it never happens would a require one-by-one brain surgery for each person capable of hatred.
 
So again, I’ll suppose you don’t mean “hatred” literally, and instead mean to say “depictions of hateful motivations”. And as I recall, also meaning to say “depictions of hateful motivations that were inspired by depictions of hateful motivations” - because you want to tackle hate + things that inspire hate, am I wrong?
 
There’s a problem of recursion, if you follow a policy of tackling hate. When you find evidence of hate, there will be evidence of what inspired the hate + the evidence of what inspired the evidence of what inspired the hate… For goodness sake… If one bans so broadly… If one bans the human brain from derpibooru, then it’s a website only convenient to access by programmers via command terminal; because when one looks all the way deep down, one could find “hate inspiration” elements in the raw code of the website’s user-interface design.
 
The point of the website having a clear policy is that we, the users, are able to remind the admins to act on something - because they wrote down, in policy, that they would act on something. The policy ought to be pretty simple, or pretty precise, because otherwise we might all misunderstand each other when quoting it to each other. It also ought not be abusable in a backfiring way.
 
I don’t like your idea as posted. To make the policy be a recursive idea, “no hate”, is just cruel; it’s asking for a million miles of labor. If you’ll argue “it’s only for the specific cases”, it’s still wishing for some sort of attentive servitude to your, or, all anti-racists, specific tastes beyond what the website already does. I can only interpret that brand of rationality as “they who expect others to shut up and offer what I want”, or, entitlementist. (a political stance otherwise known as intersectional activist; the far left)
Background Pony #F329
@Princess Luna  
Thank you.  
Since the ideal of “Nothing gets removed, the rules were fine, just use your filters” is apparently impossible I just want some consistency out of all this and not rely on mod bias any more than is necessary.  
We shouldn’t be in a situation where “Fruit is banned, but Apples are an exception because reasons.”
Princess Luna
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@Double Apple  
Yes, there’s a reason we didn’t consider “hateful” in Rule 0 before to be good enough, and it’s my belief that a lot of stuff stayed up because people couldn’t tell that it violated the rules.
 
@Background Pony #F329  
Indeed, I think this ties into Double Apple’s thing too; if someone fighting fascists has noble goals, that’s great, but they really shouldn’t be able to just skirt by things. We want to essentially put a limit on things so things don’t escalate and we don’t have as much crazy drama over political matters.
Lisboeta
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

And I still do not see why calling for wider attention from the site users, up to and including running a statewide poll is somehow not desirable. I still contend that rule change is not necessary, but if it will be done don’t you have a duty to involve more users (and people on the forums are only a small part of them), even if it is “cumbersome”?
 
And if adjusting rules is so easy for you that “you can always fine-tune later” then I expect them to be fine-tuned again and again.
Miss Shy
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@Double Apple  
Well I would say for the most part, the site has been tackling hatred in a way.
 
Before this mess kicked off, obviously hateful and inflammatory images and comments were met with deletion or even banning.
 
And credit where it’s due, the staff has handled it fast enough that it’s not there long enough to raise a fuss about.
 
It’s not an explicit “hate won’t win” way, it’s a “don’t be a dick” way.
Ahegoo

The one who likes butts.
@Miss Shy  
Well, wasn’t the issue that a LOT of stuff slipped through the cracks? Princess got linked several images and flat-out stated they had no idea how they remained up even before this shitshow began.
Princess Luna
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@Lisboeta  
A sitewide poll at the start of this would’ve been great. Right now, however, we need to get something reasonable done with so everyone can calm down and things can go back to normal, and a poll would need to last a week I think to really get everyone’s input.  
I can just about guarantee that if we ever touch Rule 0 again after this, it will be with a sitewide poll instead of this recent rollercoaster.
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A sitewide poll would be cool but there’d have to be things in place to prevent brigading from either side
 
Like maybe having your account be at least one year old would be a good start
 
@Loopers  
Wouldn’t have happened if people reported it
 
But people didn’t, they only now care about it, or at least pretend to care
Background Pony #F329
@Loopers  
Things get missed, it’s a fact of life on sites with a large user base.  
/mlp/ bans explicit porn images for instance, unless a Janitor or Mod is patrolling the thread then they rely on user-reports, if nobody notices or cares about a post then the whole thread can easily fall off the board without getting actioned.  
Same concept here, the mods don’t have time nor should they be expected to constantly trawl through what people have uploaded, they do this in their free time at the end of the day.
Ahegoo

The one who likes butts.
@Datte-Before-Dawn  
I mean. The average user just doesn’t even see content like that, usually. Which is strange since a decent chunk of it was relatively high in upvotes. I wonder why.
Ahegoo

The one who likes butts.
@Background Pony #F329  
Well, yeah, sure. But I’m still saying that they openly admitted it was lack of moderation on their part. I get a few things slipping through here and there, but a lotta stuff went by completely unnoticed, but eh, such is life. And if anything by what the mods are saying now, they’ll be staring at things a teensy bit harder anyway.
Lisboeta
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

@Princess Luna  
I hope you understand that this sounds like using “extraordinary situation” to cover unpopular changes (and even “popular” changes I expect would be inferior to anything with real discussion and consensus). Especially since the latest WIP (points 1 and 4) practically say “this is forbidden unless the mod says it’s good enough to get an exception”.
 
When serious people in stuffy chairs do it it’s called a “self-coup” I think.
 
Good luck with your job!
Miss Shy
Silly Pony - Celebrated the 13th anniversary of MLP:FIM, and 40 years of MLP!
Solar Supporter - Fought against the New Lunar Republic rebellion on the side of the Solar Deity (April Fools 2023).
Roseluck - Had their OC in the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
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Twinkling Balloon - Took part in the 2021 community collab.
Ten years of changes - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of MLP:FiM!
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2020) - Took part in the 2020 Community Collab

You're going to love me.
@Loopers  
That’s due to no one having a problem with it until now, or no one bringing it to their attention until now.
 
It’s pretty hard to be mad at something if you don’t know it exists.
 
Ignorance is bliss and all that.
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It's bad. In a good way!
Fictional races still count for discrimination, yes. We don’t want people to simply be able to substitute things around.
 
I get what you mean, with “ziggers” and such being a really damn obvious stand in race. But that was a terrifying phrase to read for a moment when it sounded like you meant non-stand-in racism would be not allowed. But if a unicorn supremecist character is genuinely talking about earth ponies as earth ponies, whilst being racist about them and calling them useless mud ponies, etc… Then that’s allowed right? So long as the Earth Pony is not a stand in for a real life group, right? Unicorn supremacy is already a theme in quite a few fics and comics I enjoy, and heck, pony supremacy is in the show itself! So I hope in-universe situations are entirely completely exempt from these rules.
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