Rule #0 Policy Refinement Feedback Thread
Background Pony #CA60
Kind of curious as to where these images and this one >>2385018 and others like it would fall within these proposed rules.
WIP redrafting of Rule 0 based on feedback so far:- Do not post things of almost no substance or artistic value likely to incite anger.
- Do not seriously advocate for committing significant violence.
- Do not insult others with name-calling or similarly slanderous/uncivil phrasing.
- Do not discriminate, or promote discrimination on individual characteristics, such as race, sex, or culture. Context matters; a mouthpiece to promote racism for instance isn’t okay, while the topic itself can be shown in artwork.
- Criticism is welcome and encouraged when done so in a constructive and helpful manner. However, using baseless, unconstructive criticism as a veil for the purpose of insulting or attacking an image and/or an artist is not allowed.
- This rule applies to all images, comments, forum posts, and private messages, along with all other interactions you may make on this website.
Kind of curious as to where these images and this one >>2385018 and others like it would fall within these proposed rules.
Armagedonus 
I support either abolishing of rule 0 or vast reduction of rule 0 (like ponybooru has)
We already have filters so there is no reason to restirict edgy art.
I anything, the staff has to enforce rule 4 more often.
We already have filters so there is no reason to restirict edgy art.
I anything, the staff has to enforce rule 4 more often.
NamelessNP 
Starlight and Sunny Fan
@Armagedonus
No we definitely need a rule 0 to keep comments and discussion civil so we don’t have a free for all of insults, personal attacks and such, the point of contention is how to apply it to content
No we definitely need a rule 0 to keep comments and discussion civil so we don’t have a free for all of insults, personal attacks and such, the point of contention is how to apply it to content
Frosku 
Vox Exercitus
@NamelessNP
Personally I would be in favor of restricting rule 0 to comments/forums/etc, and creating a new, much more relaxed rule for content which only forbids low effort shitposts, illegal content, and calls for physical violence.
Personally I would be in favor of restricting rule 0 to comments/forums/etc, and creating a new, much more relaxed rule for content which only forbids low effort shitposts, illegal content, and calls for physical violence.
Princess Luna 
Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Background Pony #1450
Fictional races still count for discrimination, yes. We don’t want people to simply be able to substitute things around.
@Yumenmita
Seems it was deleted because of the artist’s artist upload only DNP. I’ll have to go deal with that.
@Background Pony #CA60
On low-effort trolling, don’t see any problems, unless the plantation-overlay stuff originally didn’t have said overly. I don’t think any of these are advocating for killing anyone; they portray hurting people, but “advocating” is a rather strict standard. Not seeing anything else that would be a problem.
@Frosku
So…what we have but with racism mouthpiece stuff and calling other users names allowed?
Fictional races still count for discrimination, yes. We don’t want people to simply be able to substitute things around.
@Yumenmita
Seems it was deleted because of the artist’s artist upload only DNP. I’ll have to go deal with that.
@Background Pony #CA60
On low-effort trolling, don’t see any problems, unless the plantation-overlay stuff originally didn’t have said overly. I don’t think any of these are advocating for killing anyone; they portray hurting people, but “advocating” is a rather strict standard. Not seeing anything else that would be a problem.
@Frosku
So…what we have but with racism mouthpiece stuff and calling other users names allowed?
Armagedonus
@NamelessNP
Ops, sorry, I have meant “rule 0 for art” since filter feature only works on art!
I am with Frosku. (expecit “physical violence” thing, since I do not know how a picture can cause physical violence and “shitposting” is too broad and VERY individual)
Ops, sorry, I have meant “rule 0 for art” since filter feature only works on art!
I am with Frosku. (expecit “physical violence” thing, since I do not know how a picture can cause physical violence and “shitposting” is too broad and VERY individual)
Frosku
Vox Exercitus
@Princess Luna
I mean if you’re going to allow mouthpiecing for other potentially offensive groups like BLM, antifa etc then I’d be in favor of allowing all mouthpiecing and just force it to be tagged. Calling other users names I’d want covered in #newrule though.
@Princess Luna
The part about fictional races being covered by discrimination seems unreasonable. Discrimination is a theme in the actual TV show, when the ponies first meet Zecora and more blatantly with Chancellor Neighsay.
@Armagedonus
A picture can’t cause physical violence, but it’s not a stretch to say it can inspire it in a politically charged environment.
I mean if you’re going to allow mouthpiecing for other potentially offensive groups like BLM, antifa etc then I’d be in favor of allowing all mouthpiecing and just force it to be tagged. Calling other users names I’d want covered in #newrule though.
@Princess Luna
The part about fictional races being covered by discrimination seems unreasonable. Discrimination is a theme in the actual TV show, when the ponies first meet Zecora and more blatantly with Chancellor Neighsay.
@Armagedonus
A picture can’t cause physical violence, but it’s not a stretch to say it can inspire it in a politically charged environment.
Armagedonus
Which only exist outside derpibooru.
I mean, we have filters and rule 4, so it is rather hard to create “politically charged environment”.
Wouldn’t that mean that we cannot criticize wootmaster or TSP in artpieces?
A picture can’t cause physical violence, but it’s not a stretch to say it can inspire it in a politically charged environment.
Which only exist outside derpibooru.
I mean, we have filters and rule 4, so it is rather hard to create “politically charged environment”.
Calling other users names I’d want covered in #newrule though.
Wouldn’t that mean that we cannot criticize wootmaster or TSP in artpieces?
Frosku
Vox Exercitus
@Armagedonus
I think there’s a line between criticism and namecalling, I’m also not sure I’d want to see Derpi turned into a battleground of critiques of other users’ conduct. I’m conflicted on this.
I’d define low effort shitposts as non-transformational edits or randomly photoshopped compilations designed entirely to push a political agenda. You can use the little to no artistic merit test which is fairly well-defined.
I think there’s a line between criticism and namecalling, I’m also not sure I’d want to see Derpi turned into a battleground of critiques of other users’ conduct. I’m conflicted on this.
I’d define low effort shitposts as non-transformational edits or randomly photoshopped compilations designed entirely to push a political agenda. You can use the little to no artistic merit test which is fairly well-defined.
Princess Luna
Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Frosku
The show didn’t in its context appear to say to go out and be racist, which is quite important for this. We don’t want people using Neighsay as a mouthpiece to hate other races.
@Armagedonus
Criticizing isn’t the same as namecalling. You could say that they did bad things (“TSP fucked up things royally” etc.), but you couldn’t go “woot is a retard”, nor “Anyone who likes Aryanne is a dick”.
The show didn’t in its context appear to say to go out and be racist, which is quite important for this. We don’t want people using Neighsay as a mouthpiece to hate other races.
@Armagedonus
Criticizing isn’t the same as namecalling. You could say that they did bad things (“TSP fucked up things royally” etc.), but you couldn’t go “woot is a retard”, nor “Anyone who likes Aryanne is a dick”.
Background Pony #F329
@Princess Luna
Still waiting on an answer.
Is “All cops are bastards” a discriminatory statement or not?
I even further clarified my point in a later post when it was argued that the phrase has nuance.
Still waiting on an answer.
Is “All cops are bastards” a discriminatory statement or not?
I even further clarified my point in a later post when it was argued that the phrase has nuance.
See, i get that it has nuanced meaning behind the phrase, but that’s not the point.
“Bastard” is a slur.
“All cops are Bastards.” is calling every single cop a slur.
THIS IS AN EXAMPLE I AM NOT SERIOUSLY ADVOCATING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS
If i say “I hate niggers” and then go on to explain that i don’t dislike black people, only the portion of black people that are criminals in the eyes of the law, that doesn’t change the facts that i’m both using a slur and being discriminatory towards a group.
Frosku
Vox Exercitus
@Princess Luna
But Neighsay, pre-reformation, basically did say that. Depicting Neighsay doing something which discriminates against other species can be done either as a mouthpiece or as an in-character depiction of a racist character being a racist, which imo has artistic merit and shouldn’t be banned.
@Background Pony #F329
I wouldn’t want to see ACAB banned any more than I’d want to see something like “jail the bankers” or “all politicians lie” or “fake news” banned. Generally it’s more acceptable to disparage a job than it is to disparage something innate to a person. I’m not, in general, a fan of the habit of using canon ponies to mouthpiece political opinions though (despite having been historically guilty of it).
But Neighsay, pre-reformation, basically did say that. Depicting Neighsay doing something which discriminates against other species can be done either as a mouthpiece or as an in-character depiction of a racist character being a racist, which imo has artistic merit and shouldn’t be banned.
@Background Pony #F329
I wouldn’t want to see ACAB banned any more than I’d want to see something like “jail the bankers” or “all politicians lie” or “fake news” banned. Generally it’s more acceptable to disparage a job than it is to disparage something innate to a person. I’m not, in general, a fan of the habit of using canon ponies to mouthpiece political opinions though (despite having been historically guilty of it).
Armagedonus
You can always restrict it to normal users but not staff.
Attacking normal users might be shitty (even if they deserve it) but mocking staff member for behaving like idiot should be more okay since staff have more responsibilities and when they fuck up then they NEED to fell the burn.
What about settings within fandom that have racial or gender hatred?
Like war settings or fall of equestria?
I think there’s a line between criticism and namecalling, I’m also not sure I’d want to see Derpi turned into a battleground of critiques of other users’ conduct. I’m conflicted on this.
You can always restrict it to normal users but not staff.
Attacking normal users might be shitty (even if they deserve it) but mocking staff member for behaving like idiot should be more okay since staff have more responsibilities and when they fuck up then they NEED to fell the burn.
I’d define low effort shitposts as non-transformational edits or randomly photoshopped compilations designed entirely to push a political agenda. You can use the little to no artistic merit test which is fairly well-defined.
The show didn’t in its context appear to say to go out and be racist, which is quite important for this.
What about settings within fandom that have racial or gender hatred?
Like war settings or fall of equestria?
Princess Luna
Senior Moderator
Site Developer
Tag Czar
@Background Pony #F329
It’s a problem for namecalling instead, albeit a minor one.
@Frosku
If it’s not just a mouthpiece to put out racism, then it’s not really a problem, that’s what the whole thing about context is about.
@Armagedonus
Again, context. Stories like that aren’t just outright saying to be racist.
Example with low-effort trolling:
It’s a problem for namecalling instead, albeit a minor one.
@Frosku
If it’s not just a mouthpiece to put out racism, then it’s not really a problem, that’s what the whole thing about context is about.
@Armagedonus
Again, context. Stories like that aren’t just outright saying to be racist.
Example with low-effort trolling:
Frosku
Vox Exercitus
@Armagedonus
This is a pretty obvious example, just edited screencap. I’d say the same for the sign bases that people just put whatever their opinion is on. None of them provide transformative artistic value, they’re just uploaded to virtue signal or stir disagreement.
By contrast, whilst this image has the same politics, it clearly has artistic merit and is an original piece of art and therefore, in my opinion, should be allowed.
This is a pretty obvious example, just edited screencap. I’d say the same for the sign bases that people just put whatever their opinion is on. None of them provide transformative artistic value, they’re just uploaded to virtue signal or stir disagreement.
By contrast, whilst this image has the same politics, it clearly has artistic merit and is an original piece of art and therefore, in my opinion, should be allowed.
Armagedonus
@Frosku
So the best solution would be to filter “low effort” tag by default.
@Princess Luna
Ow, I actually liked that picture, even though I do not hate Trump.
I consider it funny.
Why cannot we just filter them by default and and not ban them?
So the best solution would be to filter “low effort” tag by default.
@Princess Luna
Ow, I actually liked that picture, even though I do not hate Trump.
I consider it funny.
Why cannot we just filter them by default and and not ban them?
Armagedonus
@Princess Luna
Considering that you are here can I ask you a question?
Could you consider removal of filter “everything”?
That way users will be FORCED to unfilter things manually and THAT will move responisibility from “staff” towards “user” when it comes to seeing triggering stuff.
You could even implement automatic PM that is send when new user joins Derpibooru. In said message there could be included information on how filter works and that users are resposible for what they are seeing.
Taht could eliminate all “I didn’t know that ‘everyting’ means ‘nazi’ stuff” idiots.
Considering that you are here can I ask you a question?
Could you consider removal of filter “everything”?
That way users will be FORCED to unfilter things manually and THAT will move responisibility from “staff” towards “user” when it comes to seeing triggering stuff.
You could even implement automatic PM that is send when new user joins Derpibooru. In said message there could be included information on how filter works and that users are resposible for what they are seeing.
Taht could eliminate all “I didn’t know that ‘everyting’ means ‘nazi’ stuff” idiots.
Frosku
Vox Exercitus
@Armagedonus
As I’ve repeatedly said, my preferred solution would actually be to have less censorship than we have now, and tell people to use the filters. In the spirit of constructive conversation though, I’m willing to be helpful and attempt to help steer a less nebulous and more objective policy that we can rely on to be applied impartially and objectively.
As I’ve repeatedly said, my preferred solution would actually be to have less censorship than we have now, and tell people to use the filters. In the spirit of constructive conversation though, I’m willing to be helpful and attempt to help steer a less nebulous and more objective policy that we can rely on to be applied impartially and objectively.
Background Pony #F329
If an artist portrayed the idea of ACAB using the equestrian setting, it’d be consistent with the various other images deemed okay to post for other topics like racism.
Except most of them are just pony + sign on a plain background, which would not fly with similar messages.
@Frosku
I dont want anything banned, i just want consistency for the things they do ban.
Calling someone a bastard is significantly worse than calling them a liar, especially when coupled with the context that surrounds ACAB as a movement.
@Princess Luna
I’d argue the point of it being ‘minor’ but that’s irrelevant, you agree it counts as namecalling at the very least.
I dont want anything banned, i just want consistency for the things they do ban.
Calling someone a bastard is significantly worse than calling them a liar, especially when coupled with the context that surrounds ACAB as a movement.
@Princess Luna
I’d argue the point of it being ‘minor’ but that’s irrelevant, you agree it counts as namecalling at the very least.
- Do not post things of almost no substance or artistic value likely to incite anger.
- Do not seriously advocate for committing significant violence.
- Do not insult others with name-calling or similarly slanderous/uncivil phrasing.
- Do not discriminate, or promote discrimination on individual characteristics, such as race, sex, or culture. Context matters; a mouthpiece to promote racism for instance isn’t okay, while the topic itself can be shown in artwork.
If an artist portrayed the idea of ACAB using the equestrian setting, it’d be consistent with the various other images deemed okay to post for other topics like racism.
Except most of them are just pony + sign on a plain background, which would not fly with similar messages.
Frosku
Vox Exercitus
In an ideal scenario I would probably only ban calls for violence, targeted harassment of other users (i.e. me posting my OC calling your OC retarded) and illegal content, and I’d tailor any rules changes towards enforcing tagging more, and some kind of affirmative consent for the everything filter (showing a diff between current filter and filter you’re switching to, for example). Generally speaking, I don’t think that art needs censorship or parameters of acceptability. Art and comedy are not designed to be a hugbox. Some of the most discomfort our views and norms will face will come from art and comedy, and to deliberately shut that off renders one of the most powerful forms of media harmless.
Frosku
Vox Exercitus
@Boxless
In general, this is the issue with trying to put a box around creativity. There will always be elements of subjectivity and only the artist knows what was going through their head when they drew something. I think in general that as people, we should – as the old Jewish proverb suggests – ask not for a lighter burden but for broader shoulders. People around us should not be obligated to make us comfortable, we should be obligated to use the filters and other tools available to us so that they can have maximum creativity. Defanging the painter and the writer comes at humanity’s cost.
If we do have to accept limitations on creativity – which is really anathema to the whole idea of creativity – then it should be narrow, objective, and proveably impartial.
In general, this is the issue with trying to put a box around creativity. There will always be elements of subjectivity and only the artist knows what was going through their head when they drew something. I think in general that as people, we should – as the old Jewish proverb suggests – ask not for a lighter burden but for broader shoulders. People around us should not be obligated to make us comfortable, we should be obligated to use the filters and other tools available to us so that they can have maximum creativity. Defanging the painter and the writer comes at humanity’s cost.
If we do have to accept limitations on creativity – which is really anathema to the whole idea of creativity – then it should be narrow, objective, and proveably impartial.
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