Poll on the Direction of the Current Proposals

@Boxless  
Advocating for genocide and harm for groups of ‘degenerates’ does not progress society in any way, shape or form, it is objectively harmful to society and is a net loss for all.

@dissociativity  
Discarding people over such beliefs instead of putting in the effort to at least understand WHY they hold them, if not try to show a less harmful path, is the net loss for all, not their advocacy.

@dissociativity  
So communist images should be banned because not only do they represent the oppressive and bloodthirsty regimes of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. But also because they antagonise and call for the extermination of the ‘bourgeoisie’? After all one often does not get to choose what class they are born into, is that not also undo oppression?

@Boxless  
Debating their ideas give them oxygen, to debate that ‘black people are subhuman’, gives the idea that ‘black people are subhuman’ legitimacy.

@Background Pony #9951  
ban all hammer and sickle or chinese communist party images, go for it, I’m not attached to those in the slightest as a leftist who isn’t into genocide apologetica nor supports marxist-leninist or maoist regimes.
 
We don’t advocate for killing/genociding the bourgeoisie, we simply desire them to be working class like everyone else instead of parasites who suck value from those beneath them. Much like landlords do.
 
We agree that everyone should work if they are capable of it, so that everyone can work less hours, and that value made from labour should be used for the social enrichment of all, and not the few.
 
True meritocracy.

@dissociativity  
So you argue for the extermination of people over political beliefs, which you think can change, but refuse to give them any avenue to change.  
Yeah no wonder people call you an lc holy fuck
 
As you’re so obstinate in this, i refuse to give your ideas oxygen. Good day.

@Boxless  
Where did extermination come into play?  
They can simply shut up and keep genocidal ideas to themselves, social responsibility.

@dissociativity  
Are you trying to argue that every depiction of Nazis endorses Nazism? I’m confused.

@dissociativity  
Suppressing ideas just causes them to fester in an echo chamber.
 
 
But you like those, so i don’t know why i’m even, i dunno… i guess ‘shocked’ is the closest one can get but it’s mostly just disappointment.

@Boxless  
Milo Y getting deplatformed killed his career. De-platforming bigots objectively works, if the nazis were de-platformed they never would’ve come to power.
 
It’s because of free speech advocates, centrists, moderates, they were able to keep using their free speech and get power.  
Strong anti-fascist movements ended fascism in fascist italy, debating them didn’t work.

@Boxless  
I just don’t think there’s an awful lot of crossover between actual Nazis and fans of Aryanne, in general. I’ve repeated it to death but I’m Jewish, I have a lot of friends who like Aryanne, some of them are also Jewish, some of them live in Israel.
 
I think certain people have massively overestimated the proportion of Nazis to edgelords in the fandom.
 
@dissociativity  
Richard Spencer being deplatformed amplified his platform, same for Nick Fuentes. It’s easy to find examples who prove our point. The reality is that Milo’s career died the day he tried defending pedophilia, not because of anything the left did to get him deplatformed.

@Frosku  
No, there’s plenty of great satire that makes nazis look like the fools they are.

@Frosku  
Accurate observation, and yet they’re still going on about it.

@Frosku  
You’re entirely correct, I don’t care about pictures of a cute nazi horse so much as the people that have fascist beliefs being validated and spreading said beliefs openly.
 
lots of mlp discords and /mlp/ itself are both full of unironic bigotry, though I’m still skeptical of ironic bigotry as y’know, if you say you’re a goat fucker ironically enough, people will probably think you’re a goat fucker and be repulsed by you.

@dissociativity  
I agree that there are actual bigots on /mlp/, though I think they’re a tiny fraction of the userbase – again, I don’t think I’d be treated well as someone who’s openly Jewish by a community of Nazis, they don’t tend to like us very much.

@dissociativity  
You do know Daryl Davis a African American man converted 200 KKK members by studying their beliefs, then start talking to them like human beings and by giving better ideas.  
Light is what kills racism and ideologies. Censoring and attacking these people just cause them to double down and make the situation worse.

@Background Pony #9CF7  
On a smaller scale but, I know of at least 6 people who have abandoned white supremacist beliefs because I had dialog with them over weeks and months and challenged those beliefs. Robust discussion has always been the best tool for fighting fascist ideas. Allowing them to fester unchallenged in echo chambers is the worst answer.

@Background Pony #9CF7  
Yes, one person, so anecdotal evidence.

@Frosku  
I have done the same, but derpibooru isn’t the place for it.

@dissociativity  
I don’t think anyone’s arguing for turning Derpibooru into a political discussion forum. Most of the ideals of Nazism are banned under rule zero. Conflating that with Aryanne, who to most people who like her is either an edgy meme or a sexual fetish, is the issue here.
 
People who get off to the symbolism or uniforms of totalitarian regimes – and they are common props in pornography the world over – are mostly not white supremacists or communists, in the same way that people who enjoy rape images are not rapists. Fantasy should not be confused with reality, they are two very different spheres of human experience.

@dissociativity  
Personally I think it can be because you see the people that post their works. So you know who have these idea and people can talk to. If done right. Talk to them off the site of course

doublepost

If I play GTA and go around stealing cars and running people over in a tank, it’s not because I want to steal cars or run people over in a tank. It’s because I enjoy the power fantasy of being able to do that in a world where it has no consequences for me or for the ‘people’ I’m doing it to. That’s no different from people fantasizing about rape or totalitarianism… it is just that, a fantasy enjoyed in the context of causing no harm to anyone.
 
Similarly, if someone laughs at a racist joke or the idea of a candy-colored pony being a full-blown Nazi, it’s no different to laughing at the depictions of NAMBLA in South Park or Saudi Arabia in American Dad. Having a warped sense of humor does not make someone a racist or a Nazi. I do not assume that everyone who’s ever made a holocaust joke wants to gas me, I just assume they’re a bit cringe.

@Background Pony #9CF7  
I think every community needs guardrails but the question is what are the guardrails. On derpibooru the guardrails have primarily been behavioral over banning most things outright. So, while shining a light can work there was something in place here the whole time already regulating behavior that prevented the worst of the worst. Could it have used some tightening? Perhaps, but the issue was made out way larger than what it really was.
 
 
@dissociativity  
Out of curiosity? What is your line for ironic behavior and jokes?

@doloresbridge  
For me, the guardrails should be primarily limited to discussions and not content, with exceptions for low effort baiting and direct calls to violence/harassment. Artists throughout history have created art which makes us uncomfortable, that’s a really powerful thing that art can do. We should not be looking to limit an artist’s ability to play on our emotions – we would make our world shallower for it.
 
This is really a big part of where I think the modern left has its analysis of the world wrong. The modern left believes that every space should be a ‘safe space’ where people can’t be offended or made uncomfortable. I don’t believe that’s ever been possible or even desirable. Humans thrive on challenge, internal conflict, and interpretation.