"Paradox of Tolerance"

Scorch215

I feel I need to say this as I see so many people quoting the Paradox of Tolerance to justify suppression of things they do not like and it's become clear most people do not know the quote fully. They are only quoting the part that supports what they want, which is disingenuous and manipulative.

“Less well known [than other paradoxes Popper discusses] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.”

Please read this carefully and fully, I will be breaking this down as best as i can.

Firstly,

“Less well known [than other paradoxes Popper discusses] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

This sounds pretty straight forward right? If something or someone is intolerant they must be suppressed, easy right?

This is the part that shows people don’t know the full quote. Here’s why:

“In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.”

He follows it up by saying you should not just suppress people just because they are intolerant, in fact he outright says this is a bad idea if you can defeat them with rational arguments.

By trying to remove something simply because it makes you uncomfortable is to say the argument and points they make are better than your own. It is saying they make a better case why they are right then you are, which means you need to refine your arguments. Suppression is admitting you do not have a logical argument to counter them and they are right, so you must suppress them.

Secondly, this is the part about public opinion keeping them in check. Quite simply, the Nazi idology is one of the single most reviled in the world, more then communism, which has killed more people.

Liking an image is not akin to agreeing with the idology.

I personally love the Nazi uniforms and think they were the best dressed military in history; however, this is not saying I support the ideology that spawned said uniforms. I just like the aesthetic of the uniform. You might think some other uniform from history looks better, as this is subjective. That's the point, it liking how something looks, no different than looking at a painting and deciding, “I like this,” or “I dislike this.” This in no way means I support what the Nazis did or what the ideology stands for and most people will also oppose it.

Actual Neo-Nazis have very little power. Very few shops will knowingly deal with them, very few businesses will hire them, and very few people will even give them the time of day.

That’s what filtering does on this site. It blocks their voice and I imagine a lot of people block them and ignore them, and actual Nazi messages are ignored. These people are not listened to. That is the public response because their message is so revolting by public opinion to the point most people chalk up anyone who says these things as just trying to be edgy because the concept someone actually thinks this way is ridiculous to most people.

You have a right to be uncomfortable and you have a right to ignore and block your view of this content. This is why filters exist, if you are uncomfortable and do not wish to see such things, then block it and it is not in view. Yes it's sad, but the thing about suppression is it does the same things as filtering it. You do not get rid of the words, thoughts, or ideas. You simply drive it into the shadows where you and no one else can see it, but it still exists. It will always exist.

Thirdly,

“But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.”

We do have this right. Look at a lot of comments and you will find some deleted for rules violations and checking those rules shows a lot of the time, it's done to the person being terrible. Their words were removed, they were suppressed by the site for what they said.

The main point here is the time you need to suppress them is when they stop answering arguments with arguments and instead answer with threats and violence. Here’s what's interesting. It is illegal to utter a credible threat, and this site I am quite sure will deal with someone who was a credible threat.

That's the distinction it has to be a legitimate threat to you. I can say “I am going to kill you,” but the fact is that isn't credible because I have no idea where you are and you could be halfway around the world from me, meaning I have no real way to actually harm you.

Take the OC Aryanna, one of the bigger things that cause argument. She is a fictional character, a Nazi Pony whose popularity is the juxipostion between the Ponies and such a revolting ideology, thats her appeal, similair to the juxtaposition between the the ponies and the brutality of Fallout. Like all the things on this site, she is pixels on a screen. There is no threat, it cannot harm you in any way. Make you uncomfortable? Sure, but in no way can a drawing harm you.

So I ask, “Where exactly is the threat that needs to be suppressed as said in the Paradox of Tolerance? Where are the fists, the pistols or any other weapon one can use to harm and threaten in a drawing?”

There is none, it is pixels on a screen.

The Paradox of Tolerance doesn't actually support removing images from this site. Quite the opposite. It supports them remaining unless they are a legitimate threat.

Now, if you are still reading, I'd like to address another thing I've noticed.

That being people comparing remaining neutral regarding images and remaining neutral to a war that was actually taking lives.

An image is not the same thing as a war. It is not the same thing as people actively killing other people through warfare or death camps. To remain neutral when people are being rounded up and slaughtered is most certainly not something one should do in most cases. But remaining neutral on pictures is not remotely the same. It is a false equivalence as no one is being harmed by a drawing.

Now I have one thing I'd like to address that i touched on earlier regarding liking an image being somehow equal to supporting an ideology.

Please, watch this video. I’ll still summarize it under the link, so it's more a formality.

https://youtu.be/UCj8llyzfWo

To summarize, in the video it says playing a german soldier in a WWII shooter such as Battlefield 5 or a Terrorists in Counter Strike will cause you to support these ideologies or actions.

I have to ask of those who've read this far, do you believe this is so? I ask because it's the same argument that video games make people violent. I bring this up as I see a lot of people who seem to think that the liking of an image or even seeing the image will somehow lead you to support the ideology.

Just as video games are not making people violent, playing as a WWII german soldier or Terrorist doesn't make you suddenly want to support these groups, nor does seeing an image.

Video games are pictures, moving, and ones we control. If anything, they have a higher chance of getting support since you are the one doing things, but the fact is video games don't influence us in that way and neither does a still image someone drew make those who see it suddenly support whatever they see. They either already supported the ideology before seeing the image or they like the aesthetics of the image. They didnt suddenly become Nazi from an image of a pony with a nazi swastika on her flanks.

Regardless, if you read this far, I thank you. I hope I was able to help you understand why people take the stances they do regarding this site as well as your own stance a bit better. We should always examine our own views and actions to avoid becoming things we oppose without realizing it. There is a thin line between protection and oppression, and it's all too easy for one to cross that line without realizing it and be what they claim to be fighting. I know I've had to change views I've held before after reexamining them.

Thank you for reading.
Background Pony #6D5E
It's nothing but an excuse for fanatics to become fanatick-er.
Now maybe a few noggleheads might argue it's not meant that way, but if they can bizarrely argue OK means white power with a straight face because "meanings change," then employing the Paradox clearly marks one as a fascist
Background Pony #E334
"But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

Please explain to us all when and how Nazi ideologies have ever been "prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument?" Do you recall that a world war was fought over this ideology, and that millions of Jews were brutally murdered by a regime that was not only deceptive, but explicitly taught its adherents to answer arguments by the use of weapons? This has always been the case with these particular ideologies, and it continues today. Every time a white supremacist goes on a murderous rampage, they leave behind manifestos that glorify the exact type of symbology that you now cling to.
Barhandar
Perfect Pony Plot Provider - Uploader of 10+ images with 350 upvotes or more (Questionable/Explicit)
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@Background Pony #E334
Somehow, the "nazis" are engaging in a rational argument, while the "us" you refer to are screeching, trying to take Derpibooru's patreon down, and attacking the other boorus because they dared to exist. Oh and also blocking anyone who disagrees immediately on their twitters, and coming here just to insult people. Not really a very rational position, is it?
Maybe look in the mirror for once. You might see someone who is you, but more honest, there.
Background Pony #E334
@Barhandar
@Background Pony #E334
Somehow, the "nazis" are engaging in a rational argument, while the "us" you refer to are screeching, trying to take Derpibooru's patreon down, and attacking the other boorus because they dared to exist. Oh and also blocking anyone who disagrees immediately on their twitters, and coming here just to insult people. Not really a very rational position, is it?
Maybe look in the mirror for once. You might see someone who is you, but more honest, there.


I don't think you understand. To be a Nazi has nothing to do with "rational" argument. And Nazi symbols of murder, hatred and suffering are not arguments. A symbol is not an argument. Demanding to emblazon a symbol of mass murder on a pony is not an argument. Declaring that you have a right to emblazon said symbol on a pony on a private website is not an argument. That is a declaration, possibly a form of misguided advocacy that is better qualified as propaganda. It's pretty rare in today's age to see people advocating on behalf of Nazi symbology, but I suppose in many ways the Atlantic article was right about the types of individuals who make up some of this community. But no, those are not arguments, rational or otherwise.

If you want to know the types of arguments that Nazis have made over the decades, I'm sure you can find many articles explaining the truly evil aspects of their ideology and the thinking behind their beliefs. Those are arguments, very very disturbing arguments. Their arguments are not rational, they are the musings of a truly disturbed mind. Your embrace of them is something that I hope you regret one day.
Background Pony #053C
@Background Pony #E334
Surely someone as concerned as you would feel the exact same way about the hammer and sickle as you do the swastika right? After all, both are symbols of brutal regimes that murdered millions and made suffer millions more.
Background Pony #0360
@Barhandar
@Background Pony #E334
You seem mightily sure that you have authority to decide what is or isn't an argument or a declaration.

@Background Pony #0360
Remember that this isn't 4chan and insults that are the norm there are going to get your post wiped here, now or years ago.

Yes I am well aware that when the op gleefully submits a logical fallacy and makes it absolutely clear that the thing that made the nazis evil was use of force to silence the opposition, it is the moderation teams job to embody that evil in its purest form. The moderation team here is a joke, the topic itself is literally equating a meme shit scribble to holocaust and insulting a minority user base on the face of it. It's literally the jewish version of racism. say the magic word that gets you what you want!

If the mods want to delete insulting posts that cause toxicity in the community they can start by deleting that faggots original post. We both know what they actually do is delete anything that shows their precious communism in a bad light and anything that runs counter to woke bullshit.

For those who came late, all I posted was a shortie that made it absolutely clear the current powers that be in most relevant countries use violence to enforce the silence OP claims to complain about.
Background Pony #0360
@Background Pony #E334
@Barhandar
@Background Pony #E334
Somehow, the "nazis" are engaging in a rational argument, while the "us" you refer to are screeching, trying to take Derpibooru's patreon down, and attacking the other boorus because they dared to exist. Oh and also blocking anyone who disagrees immediately on their twitters, and coming here just to insult people. Not really a very rational position, is it?
Maybe look in the mirror for once. You might see someone who is you, but more honest, there.


I don't think you understand. To be a Nazi has nothing to do with "rational" argument. And Nazi symbols of murder, hatred and suffering are not arguments. A symbol is not an argument. Demanding to emblazon a symbol of mass murder on a pony is not an argument. Declaring that you have a right to emblazon said symbol on a pony on a private website is not an argument. That is a declaration, possibly a form of misguided advocacy that is better qualified as propaganda. It's pretty rare in today's age to see people advocating on behalf of Nazi symbology, but I suppose in many ways the Atlantic article was right about the types of individuals who make up some of this community. But no, those are not arguments, rational or otherwise.

yes yes all very boring stuff, don't bother looking into it goyim, and if you do and come to the wrong conclusion we'll kill and destroy you anyway.

flippity floo, heres your you.
Background Pony #0360
@Barhandar
@Background Pony #0360
Also you were responding to another post instead of the OP lol, OP is the paradox post.

Guess they don't want to interrupt their enemy when they make a mistake! I'll let them keep it.
My twilight levels are simply not up to snuff.
LOVE
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

The biggest elephant in the room is that the 'Paradox of Tolerance' immediately asks also:

Why is Foalcon and Rape allowed then but Nazi is not?

There is no evidence that Drawn Underage Pornography does NOT make you a pedophile. Studying pedophiles is hard since they tend not to want to identify themselves. Japan is a pretty awful place to look for crime statistics because their crime rate is kept so low by…not prosecuting anything they don't think they can get a 100% conviction on.

The only evidence we have is that access to pornography may reduce irl offending chances. Although you could say the same thing about the right-wing-death-squads, right wing terrorism has only been rising in recent years afterall as censors have been banning nazi and racism more. Would that not directly contradict this entire argument? And hasn't several communities such as the fighting game community been absolutely destroyed recently by piles upon piles of allegations of pedophilia? Should this not be an even bigger worry for bronies with a fandom of very diverse ages? (I joined in 2010 when I was 14).

Of course if you look at who pushed for the Nazi-DNP, you can see that they aren't interested in banning foalcon…
Background Pony #6B77
I don't trust anyone who claims to not tolerate intolerance. It is a weak argument only used to justify their own intolerance. It is a way of thinking that has no set rules, but aounds good, this way they can be as intolerant as they like while still patting themselves on the back for being ao virtuous.
LOVE
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Barhandar
People say "slippery slope" but that is actually what the Paradox of Tolerance asks for. To use that argument, the next questions of what else should be intolerable is bound to be asked.

I also don't see Braeburned or other artists putting a DNP on e621 despite also allowing Nazi and Aryanne…

Background Pony #E334
@LOVE
The biggest elephant in the room is that the 'Paradox of Tolerance' immediately asks also:

Why is Foalcon and Rape allowed then but Nazi is not?



Probably because all of you are into foalcon. The creator of the show affirmed long ago that all of the mane 6 are under age. This entire pony porn industry is built on depictions of sexualized minors, if you really believe in the concept of "foalcon." So it only makes sense that a community heavily featuring porn of those characters doesn't care much about that, I would assume because there is no large scale real world ideology built around sexualized ponies who have been alive for a certain number of years. Of course, that's where Nazis are different.
LOVE
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Background Pony #E334
Faust said the M6 were young adults. Try again



Word of Faust for proofs. She said they are young adults, but deliberately act immature to appeal to kids. After S1&2 they start acting less immature + passage of time means the only ones who want to think the M6 are children are pedophiles
Background Pony #E334
@LOVE
@Background Pony #E334
Faust said the M6 were young adults. Try again



Word of Faust for proofs. She said they are young adults, but deliberately act immature to appeal to kids. After S1&2 they start acting less immature + passage of time means the only ones who want to think the M6 are children are pedophiles


I don't know many "young adults" who live their daily lives acting as 12 year olds. Also, their equestria girl counterparts are, at most, young high school girls. In any sense connected to reality they would be considered under age, and a bunch of 30 year old men lusting after them would be looked down upon. That also makes sense given that, as Ms. Faust admits herself, entertainment targeted at young children tends to feature kids as main characters. But as I said, this is simply an explanation as to why "foalcon" isn't something that most people seem to care about. You can take it or leave it.
Inucroft

Hater of Nazi edgelords
@LOVE
The entire reason they filed the DNP was not because there was nazi content, but because the site REVERSED it ban of Nazi content. At least try to understand the argument otherwise you just look like a fool.

It's one thing to go "use a filter" it's another thing going "lets unban Nazi content". Funny how many people here ignore the fact derpi banns anthro/humanised foals and are okay with that yet not okay with them banning literila Nazi content.
LOVE
Wallet After Summer Sale -
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!
The End wasn't The End - Found a new home after the great exodus of 2012

@Inucroft
I personally think anything political should be banned and moved to a seperate site. And again this is based on the argument they themselves used of 'paradox of tolerance'. A pretty terrible argument if all they really are angry about is 'the reversal'.

Additionally anthro foalcon is not banned, remember Woot's 'gift' pic of him nutting in Smolder is anthro and foalcon. Only 'humanized foalcon' is banned, and only because of legal reasons due to where the servers are located. Not a very comparable situation.
Background Pony #4117
@Inucroft
Banning something because it's illegal and banning something because a mob tries to strongarm you are two different things.

Aryanne was never ever a problem, if she was then she would have been banned 6 years ago.
Derpi staff gave a millimeter to the mob with the silencing of people that disapproved of BLM, then the mob demanded the rest of the site or they'd burn it down.
Inucroft

Hater of Nazi edgelords
@LOVE
It's the main complaint i have.

Inconsistent application of rules and lack of transparency/explanation when moderation occurs.
Like, if you take down a upload and cite a rule, there is no explanation. Which is perplexing when they cite a rule, you look at that rule then look at the image and you're there going… how the fuck does it break that rule?

Because, this is used by an international community, and what one thing might mean to one nation means somehting radically diffrent to another.
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