On Parody and Crossed Lines.

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Background Pony #27B8
This isn’t a thread to contest decisions made about particular images, or to speculate about staff motivations or whatever else the hot topic happens to become.  
This is primarily supposed to be a thread regarding a facet of rule 0, in particular, Parody and whether something can or should be considered taboo enough to ban completely.  
For the purposes of this thread, please refrain from discussing “Free speech” as it is codified in law, the legality of things is not the subject of debate here.
 
On the extreme ends of things, you have two opposing groups.  
Allow all things, including things which attack/mock/demean. Do not curate content unless for legality reasons.
 
Disallow all things controversial, no matter how small the link. Curate content based on subjective views of acceptability.
 
Most people fall somewhere between these two extremes, the core difficulty throughout this multi-month debacle being the lack of definition regarding “The Line.”  
The point where an ‘uncomfortable’ thing becomes an ‘unacceptable’ thing.  
Trying to codify it to something specific would be foolhardy, we’ve had multiple attempts at that throughout of trying to pin down exact criteria based on a decision regarding one thing and then applying that to other things, often to mixed reception.
 
To get the most relevant and obvious example up front.  
Does a cartoon horse, portrayed as a Nazi, automatically count as a parody due to the obvious juxtaposition?”  
I’m firmly of the belief that it does not, as there is more to the concept of parody than contrast, and other factors can overshadow the cute pony aspect.  
The definition of parody I’m using is as follows  
An imitation of the style of a particular writer, artist, or genre with deliberate exaggeration for comic effect.”  
Of course, instead of a writer, artist or genre, i am applying to a particular subject instead.  
The simple image of >>2425876 however, is something i would consider parody, since the juxtaposition between the two subjects of “Nazi, but a cute pony” is the only notable thing about the image.
 
For me personally, the most common point at which something ceases to be a parody is when ‘exaggeration’ ceases to be such.  
To use an example similar to above, a pony performing the nazi salute >>723490  
Obvious parody, it’s another case of “Cute pony + Nazi thing.” juxtaposition.  
However, if this image was instead about a pony performing the salute during a nazi rally for instance, it becomes more complicated.  
If every other participant was a human, it would be extending the contrast, especially if all you could see of the pony was a raised hoof, perhaps with a human looking down in confusion to further highlight things.  
If it was a recreation of a historical event but with ponies, I’d consider that parody as it’s extending the juxtaposition, the original image would have to be sourced though, otherwise it becomes the next example.  
If all the participants were ponies (or vague silhouettes) but the rally was generic and nondescript, i’d hesitate to call it parody, since the ‘cute pony’ part has less significance on the overall image of “Nazi rally.”
 
I’m curious as to how others would define parody, and how they themselves would define the ‘Line.’ even if for them it’s a simple matter of “There is no line” or “Everything about [subject] crosses the line.” but I’d prefer more nuanced opinions than that.
Princess Luna
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I think there’s a flaw in this in that you are asking two questions which are not inherently linked:  
  1. Where should the line between okay and not be?  
  2. When should something be considered a parody?
     
    There seems to be an unstated assumption that if something qualifies as parody, that it is automatically in the “okay” column. The question this raises is whether “is this parody?” is a good question to ask given that a bad faith actor may intentionally make something seem like a parody to most people in order to “fly under the radar” and propagandize others successfully.
     
    I think the problem with considering comedy separately is that it adds another layer of subjectivity, because something could both promote discrimination and make people laugh.  
    To manufacture a hypothetical, imagine a comedic cartoon about a Nazi that unapologetically murders Jewish people all day, but acts normal otherwise, and the comedy is derived from this juxtaposition and setting things up so the audience cares about him and not the people he kills (similar to what Solar Opposites or Rick & Morty often do) by making the Jews act bad and never showing us their more human side, while showing his; someone could easily, from this parody, come away actually thinking less of Jews and be more okay with treating them badly or supporting genocides.
Background Pony #27B8
@Princess Luna  
That’s a point I hadn’t considered, somethings status as a parody doesn’t automatically make it okay, such as in the example you give.  
I would provide the counterpoint that removing the “Make the jews act bad” part of your example and having them act as regular people just as the nazi would make the whole thing kosher, if you’d pardon the pun, since it would highlight the derangement of the Nazi, especially if you dont show anything explict happening to the jewish character.  
Happily discussing holiday plans with a stranger, the nazi makes the parting remark of “Merry Christmas” to which the stranger replies “Happy Hanukkah” and is the thing which makes the nazi’s whole demeanour change from ‘Friendly’ to ‘Murder’, brief cut-away to his bedroom of him happily whistling as he puts on full regalia and goose steps out the door, only to step back in, raise his arm in a salute to the flag hanging above the door frame, and march back out again with arm raised.  
Like i said with my nazi rally example, it’s complicated, and the more complex an image is, the more complicated it gets.
 
The main focus of and what a person takes away from an image (or images) is what’s important.  
In your example it would be “Jews bad, even regular people should ‘do their part’.”  
In my altered example it’s “The Nazi is insane and could act like a regular person.”
 
Being a parody shouldn’t provide exemption from rule 0, but the nature of said parody should provide some nuance to it, the point of this thread is to try and get some opinions on where that nuance lies.
Princess Luna
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@Background Pony #27B8  
That seems reasonable as a fine example. Overall I’d say I mainly look at when something either in-universe starts showing someone happy or well-off from discriminating, or seems to be breaking the 4th wall to directly tell the viewer to go discriminate. The former is where a lot of people disagree, because it can lead to rather over-the-top things*, that can be easily seen as comedic, deemed too far.
 
*Like say, Aryanne inventing and deploying a drone that goes around murdering Griffons using the time-warping tech of Santa’s Sleigh to burn them all in their own fireplaces in a single night, then going to Kokomo to sip martinis.
Background Pony #27B8
@Princess Luna  
When you talk about things in-universe, are you referring to using the characters as stand-ins for real life issues / peoples (Such as Pony = Nazi and Griffon = Jew.) or in-universe discrimination (Such as Neighsay disliking every non-pony.)?  
Because it can be argued that the latter is exactly what fiction is supposed to be for, the exploration of ideas that may not be possible or palatable in reality, the most glaring ones being gore, murder and violence in general.  
Warhammer 40k if you want to see the absurd end of that spectrum, people can enjoy the various groups and characters in that universe for what they are, without subscribing to the ideas it seems to promote.  
You can even actively participate in such ideas virtually without any inkling towards doing it in reality, tying into the old “Do video games promote violence?” arguments.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1CQ7Vwz8Eo
 
Your example is a bit over the top yes, although I’d argue that its main problem is portraying the absurd as a reality and putting the focus on it as a Good Thing.™  
A better parody might be an image depicting her in front of a chalkboard trying to work out the logistics of all that, a small doodle of her ambushing santa to steal the sleigh, trying and failing to work out how many pieces of coal a single griffon equates to, playing up the idea of Rudolph being a possible accomplice due to his mistreatment, etc.  
In the style of >>744267  
The focus would be on the absurdity of it all, especially if it’s made apparent that this all came about after talking about Christmas and Hearthswarming with a human and she’s got an incredibly wrong idea of the whole thing.
 
It’s all about framing, what is wrong in one context could be fine in another, since it boils down to what ideas are being promoted and what the viewer takes away from it.  
The artists intent can matter in some cases, but the term “unintentional parody” exists for a reason.  
“Springtime for Hitler” from the film ‘The Producers’ for a topical example, and an honourable mention goes to “The Room”, since it wasn’t intended to be one of the worst films ever made.
Background Pony #27B8
@Princess Luna  
So you’re talking about the former then where characters or setting are used as stand-ins, since otherwise I’m not sure how an image would fall under rule 0.  
A racist word or phrase used by a character doesn’t mean it’s a case of someone trying to say it’s good, or that they have a real world target for discrimination in mind, it just means that particular character is racist.  
These are examples of what i meant by the latter >>1126067 >>1588617 >>2058946
Princess Luna
Preenhub - We all know what you were up to this evening~
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@Background Pony #27B8  
To concretize things, imagine an image showing Applejack reject Zecora’s invitation to Hearthswarming dinner because she’s “a filthy zigger”, then showing the Apple family happily having dinner. The image overall would seem to be saying that you’ll be all happy and good rejecting people for discriminating, while using a slur that’s just a real-life slur with a minor alteration.  
I think that image would be just on the not-okay side.
Background Pony #27B8
@Princess Luna  
I could see that being a parody subversion of a typical Christmas story, in the vein of “I didn’t learn anything.”
 
So even if there is zero link to IRL issues or people, other than the slur which is a minor alteration of a real one, it would be considered not okay because the image is essentially saying discrimination is a good thing?
doloresbridge
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Peace to all
I’m curious as to how others would define parody, and how they themselves would define the ‘Line.’ even if for them it’s a simple matter of “There is no line” or “Everything about [subject] crosses the line.” but I’d prefer more nuanced opinions than that.
 
I can offer up a metaphor of sorts: edginess implies that there is an edge right? A point where one may bleed? You want to keep that line as far out as possible, least too many people fear getting cut. How far is a matter of values. Somethings should definitely be over the line; targeted harassment and attacks, anything illegal. So that puts the line for me existing somewhere on unironic versus ironic behavior. The archivist in me says that, say, crazy stuff like that old My Nationalist Pony be allowed to be disused, caps of the old blog uploaded and talked about, despite it’s unironic endorsement of some esoteric mix of MLP, National Socialist thought, with a bit of paleoconservatism thrown in for good measure (if I recall correctly).
 
Why? Because it is a phenomenon, or should I say, was a phenomenon within the fandom. A strange oddity. There is a lot of others that arguably cross lines in similar but less talked about ways, phenomenons of complete unironic misanthropy and legit reverence of our ponies and the show to almost and sometimes to a religious degree. Fan works and such produced by those holding such views can be more pervasive then one thinks when looking at the surface and drawing a hard moral line can do damage its own way.
 
Yet I also can understand wanting stability and a generally welcoming environment. So to say, cutting off unironic expressions of racism, even if it would prohibit the craziness of My Nationalist Pony, I could understand from the hassle of that being used to promote that ideology.
 
So there you have my two cents: there is some cases were I would even make the case where some unironic stuff doesn’t cross a moral line for me but I also understand a line existing. Just make sure that edges are far so most don’t get cut.
Background Pony #27B8
@doloresbridge  
The promotion of ideology is something that i think, in general, everyone* can come to a vague agreement on it being a Bad thing™, or at least something to roll your eyes over even if you personally ascribe to the particular idea being pushed.  
I’m making the distinction between here expressing an idea (>>2060864 “Haha Twiggie is racist”) vs promoting it ( Almost the entire “mouthpiece” tag would probably fall here).  
You can have and share ideas without endorsing them, or at most finding them entertaining to think about and ultimately i think that’s the crux of the disagreements happening and why people are getting ‘cut on the edge’, so to speak.
 
Edit: *Everyone currently involved in talking about this, i mean.
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