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Lazy tagging

Site and Policy » Lazy tagging Search Posts
cdpaliden

I’ve been a regular Derpibooru user for quite some time, and I tend to tag dozens of images a day as I browse. That being said, every once in a while I run into one that just gets my blood boiling. Example; the four tag, explicit image. It’s got the artist, the explicit tag, the “OC” tag and “NSFW”. Now, just for example, I want you to envision in your head WHAT that image is. Let’s pretend you have “NSFW” set to spoiler and the curious bug has bit you. What is that spoilered image, with only four tags? Here you are trying to decide IF you’re gonna click it and see what’s under that spoiler. Is this the next hottest mare/stallion oc? Is this a tasteful centerfold with a wet mane, or a steamy scene between two consenting adults in a shower? Or is this that one thing that just drives a splinter up your urethra? Now let’s imagine you DON’T have NSFW spoiled. No matter what your blacklist is, you’re now seeing that image, like it or not, you don’t have a choice in it.
 
My point is, as site rules stand now, that image is passing. I say that, because according to the Tag Help page and image upload page, all that’s required for uploads is rating, artist/artist unknown, and ONE other tag. This person above was very nice and tagged the image with ONE more than is required! All those shorthand tags suggested to you when uploading an image aren’t required. You aren’t required to tag genitals or sexual acts that make an image explicit. You’re recommended to do so, but not required to. On a daily basis my blacklist fails because people missed a tag in those recommended tags, or I get a hit on a search I didn’t want because someone neglected to tag “Penis” when I was looking for mares, or something similar. That’s beyond the point.
 
So, TL;DR: what I’d ideally like to see is those shorthand tags be required of images, and any tags that earn an image the explicit tag (or above). I’d also like to see the term “adequately tagged” more clearly defined. It’s one thing if you have two dozen tags on an image and miss one obscure tag, but to upload an explicit image with four tags and think that’s good enough, is lazy and shouldn’t be acceptable.
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I didn’t even read your post fully, but I need to point out one important thing because OCD:
 
“nsfw” is not a valid rating tag, filtering/spoiling it won’t do anything. It’s a joke tag for images that say “NSFW” (ie. Not Safe For Woona). It gets removed from 99.9% of the images it is added to because they have nothing to do with nsfw.
 
That’s all I have to say. (Actually I have lots to say about lazy tagging, but I don’t want to ramble here. You make good points.)
Background Pony #C1EB
Rant acknowledged and wholeheartedly empathized. And I get that you’re thinking about the usefulness of the site to people in general, but here are some things you can do to improve things for yourself:
 
If it’s something you really can’t abide, you could use your filter to hide images with fewer than your choice number of tags (eg. 5) by putting tag_count.lt:5 on a line in the Complex Hide Filter field. Or, maybe you think you’ll rarely be bothered by undertagged safe images, then you could put tag_count.lt:5, -safe instead.
 
Unfortunately, as far as I know, there’s no way to bump an image to the front of your viewing list when it acquires the appropriate number of tags, so there’s a high probability things will get overlooked when they’re suddenly unhidden on page 3, 4, etc. So, if you really really can’t abide, you could add created_at.gt:1 day ago on a line in the Complex Hide Filter, which will hide everything until it’s been on the site for a day - the idea being to give enough time for other people to have improved the tagging, and by hiding everything it means you’ll be less likely to miss something if browsing chronologically, for the aforementioned reason. (If a day is too aggressive, you can use other lengths of time like created_at.gt:12 hours ago)
 
As for me, if I notice content in a thumbnail that I’ve intended to filter, I’ll pop up that post, quickly hit the keyboard shortcut to edit tags, and add whatever appropriate tag is missing in order to nuke it from my view (and perhaps a few other obvious things I might have noticed at a glance, like if it needs to be tagged “anthro” for example.)
 
Sufficient and accurate tagging, after all, is a community effort, as the second bullet point of Rule #2 indicates.
 
Then finally, as the same bullet point indicates, if you notice images being habitually uploaded without important content tags (ie. stuff you’re pretty sure people feel strongly about seeing/not seeing) then you can report that user, or if it’s anonymous/Background Pony, you can report one particular image but write in the report that someone is being punishably neglectful with tags - mods can see more info that lets them connect the dots on anonymous or unregistered use.
cdpaliden

@Background Pony #C1EB  
I appreciate your suggestions, and some of them are actually pretty clever. The last point is kind of moot, because I have filed MANY reports over the years, so I know it well.
 
I guess my main response really goes back to the idea that tagging’s a community initiative. I agree with this and believe it ought to remain so. That said, there are many uploaders that don’t spam images, so it becomes harder to find if they are chronic under-taggers, and in the meantime continue to add to the problem. I specifically made the suggestions in the opening post to be minimally invasive - because this is a concern I’ve heard from moderation before - and easily implementable, with minimal change to the rules. My ideal is to see fewer images thrown down with less than a half-dozen tags, with the smallest impact to the site as a whole.
Ciaran
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I wish there was a way to flip a bit and it would suddenly improve people’s tagging.
 
For myself, when working with someone to try to find a way to help them improve their tagging it might take months or even years. And along the way I really have no way to monitor them short of looking at their uploads periodically - there’s really no tools to check someone’s uploading as they upload, we have to do it by hand afterwards.
 
So, as much as it sucks that you have to keep reporting people for not tagging their uploads, that is in many ways the only way that we get clued into the problem still existing.
 
Like, you report someone, we look at their tagging and agree there is a problem, then someone volunteers to talk to them about why tagging is good, and give them some tags to try to get closer to sucking less.
 
Then we watch them for a couple of weeks, and in the meantime OTHER people become problems and we start working with THEM instead, hoping the people we had worked with in the past are doing better.
 
But then we get a report about someone’s tagging being bad, and we go back to the notes, and see if this is an ongoing issue, see who has worked with them in the past, check to see what’s been tried and how well those things have worked … on and on and on.
 
It really is something we have to figure out how to do with EACH person, one at a time.
 
For some people, it’s no problem. Their tagging improves and everything is great.
 
For others, their tagging improves for a couple of weeks or months then they upload an image with only the minimum tags again.
 
And for some, we end up banning them because they utterly refuse to tag their uploads or even maliciously remove tags that others try to add.
 
I wish there was a one-size fits all solution, but each uploader is their own special story and we end up having to craft a special path for each and every person. For some people, getting them to at least tagging the characters is all we can hope for. With others they become some of the best taggers on the site.
 
The way that all of this keeps moving forward, and keeps improving, is that you help us track the problems by reporting people whose tagging are issues.
 
I know that sucks. But in the absence of any kinds of tools to automatically do all of this, you reporting what you see really helps us.
Ciaran
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not kidding but I’ve got two tagging reports I’ve been working now for 2 months each, and if I recall correctly one of them actually goes back years …
 
Tagging is really the thing that sets this site apart from others though, so it is something we take seriously and do devote a lot of time to getting right.
 
Even if it sometimes means developing a personal relationship with individual uploaders to help them find that comfort zone where the tags they’re adding on upload are, at least, not causing pain for others.
cdpaliden

@Ciaran  
Thanks for replying Ciaran, it means a lot to get a Moderator’s perspective on this, as someone down ‘in the trenches’ as it is. My concern is that this is a lingering issue, one which past administrations have sometimes been openly hostile toward any kind of change. Personally, while I appreciate the unique style of moderation Derpibooru has in respect to tagging, I do think there is room for improvement. Little things we can do to improve the experience for everyone involved, make expectations for uploaders clearer and more consistent. I for one would like to hear the phrase, “use your blacklist” or be told “tag the image yourself” less, especially when my complaints are about under-tagged images. I admit to being picky about tags and generally encourage more tags than less. I don’t mind doing my share of the work in the process, I just don’t want to do mine AND the uploader’s too. I.e. I feel less like I’m being asked to help, and more like I’m expected to do all the work.
cdpaliden

A real world encounter I just had. This image had the following tags: explicit, artist [Name removed], oc, pony, looking at you, solo. This collection of tags is currently passing, though I really think it’s unacceptably thin - as stated above, I think explicit images should require basic tags including genitals, positions, ect. Best part of this, one of those tags is a lie. In the span of ~60 seconds, I added 19 tags to the image with little more than a cursory glance…including the Sex tag, as in there are two individuals in the image. I mean, come on, you can’t even properly tag if there are one or two characters in your own image? Or even what KIND of pony she is? Not that the latter is a big gripe, just an example of what I mean by truly LAZY tagging.
cdpaliden

I’d like to note that this thread has been up for more than two weeks and we’ve yet to have any comment from Administration on our concerns. Can we get a comment, please?
Ciaran
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@cdpaliden
 
>> assuming the admins are here often enough and long enough that they aren’t fully saturated dealing with keeping the site running
 
We’ve gone from a minimum of 3 tags to 4, and to be honest there are actual images I’ve uploaded where 4 tags pretty much covered it and thinking of a fifth was a stretch. Going to more tags is something we’ve discussed but it’s very difficult to find a ‘right number’ that works without discouraging uploads or requiring people to sometimes ‘make up tags’ just to get the image on the site.
 
Also for a lot of uploaders - myself included - it’s significantly easier to get the image on the site and add tags once the image is being rendered by the site. That way I can use my clipboard for more than the URL of the image or the description.
 
And if you see uploads that are persistently being badly tagged we ask that you report them and I’ve already shared a wall of text talking about what we do when those kinds of reports are received.
 
Beyond that, two moderators have replied to you, including one of our top tagging wonks, so I’m not sure what more you are looking for.
 
So - what is it that you are asking the admins to do or say?
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@Ciaran  
Now I’m curious: are there any general patterns in the kind of images that only have four relevant tags? I both believe that such images exist and also cannot think of any examples off the top of my head.
cdpaliden

@Ciaran  
Sorry it took me so long to reply, I wanted to give your post the time and attention it deserves. Now, replying to your points as you made them…
 
First things first, I want to reiterate what I am talking about here is specifically EXPLICIT images. I’d challenge anyone on Derpibooru to show me an explicit image that is adequately tagged with four tags. I simply don’t think you CAN.
 
That said, I feel like this post is riddled with distractions. For example bringing up the ‘remember to report bad taggers’ and ‘what is the correct number of tags’. The former, is both what I am trying to cure - fewer reports for moderation to deal with - and something I have explicitly stated is a contributing reason for this thread. As for the latter, I specifically avoided stating any number of tags in my proposal, to avoid this distraction…because that’s what this is, a distraction. We don’t need an arbitrary number of tags, we need clear guidelines for what is required - not what is suggested. I’m also not talking about images that have been up for one hour and haven’t been tagged, as part of a batch upload. I’ve seen explicit images that have been up for DAYS and haven’t had more than four tags on them.
 
Ciaran, what I’d like is an honest conversation about the practicality of implementing my proposal as clearly stated. As much as I respect and appreciate the input of the Moderation team - and it is invaluable moving forward - I’d really like to hear what someone in the Administration has to say, considering it’s technically a change to rules/ policy, even if it ideally is a small one.  
To reiterate, the two main points are:  
One - Make those shorthand tags (on the image upload page) be required of images, and any tags that earn an image the explicit tag (or above).  
Two - Make the term “adequately tagged” more clearly defined on the Site Rules Page, to reflect these changes.
cdpaliden

Two months. This has been up for two months and not ONE peep from the administration.
It should be clear to everyone that there is no interest in making any sort of quality of life improvements with this site.
Ciaran
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So you’re already convinced that the proposed automatic tag suggesting on upload won’t help? Or are you insisting that someone with an admin chevron must publicly reply to you in this specific thread? Because it really seems to me the automatic tag suggested will help, and I also feel like we’ve tried to address your questions.
If you’re convinced the proposed automatic tag suggestion changes won’t help, then what are your unanswered questions or concerns?
cdpaliden

@Ciaran
Frankly, I don’t think I’ve ever peeked into the site development thread, because there hadn’t been anything in there for me. I’ve seen automatic tagging have some success, so I’m willing to give it a chance to see if it positively affects things.
While I appreciate your engagement, I don’t necessarily think you’re the person I needed a conversation with. I don’t really have questions, per se, but suggestions for feature implementation. That requires feedback from someone with an Admin chevron - you know, someone who could actually change site policy. It would’ve been nice to at least know my suggestion had been heard, maybe get some feedback regarding what might be too hard to implement, or if there were things that might work better. Whether it was even being considered…or even, hey, there’s this other thing we’re working on that ought to solve your issue. Props for trying Ciaran, but you weren’t the one I needed a response from, sorry. Any engagement or enthusiasm to help has long since sputtered away.
Ciaran
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While I appreciate your engagement, I don’t necessarily think you’re the person I needed a conversation with
Perhaps if you will only talk with an administrator about it, you should write to ops@derpibooru.org, or send a PM to an admin.
suggestions for feature implementation … requires feedback from someone with an Admin chevron …
No, it doesn’t.
Most of the feature changes we get come through Philomena which is open source, such as the (what seems to me) actual solution to the actual problem you are describing. OPS implements those new features without replying to public posts outside of the development thread all the time.
Besides, on a purely volunteer fansite like this, if the ‘not admins’ weren’t behind it - that is, if the people who actually do the work that is necessary to make the change you’re talking about work - then how would it ever happen?
This is a volunteer gig. Telling volunteers to do something that they don’t think will help the site or make it better somehow, or is at least in some way fun or interesting for them to do, is a really bad way to make a sustainable and long term change.
I’ve already told you why I think your idea isn’t practical or helpful from a ‘keeping the site running’ standpoint, as well as what you can do to help make the current situation better.
It would’ve been nice to at least know my suggestion had been heard
I have no idea why you think you haven’t been heard. We’re actively developing and testing a proposed feature that directly addresses the core issues that result in the problem you’ve described - not just because of your post here but because of the pain this problem causes to everyone.
Plus, you’ve gotten replies from two moderators who combined have been on the site for more than a decade and who actually spend hours a week working on this specific issue and instead of replying to our points you’ve asked to ‘talk to a manager’.
If you require a specific response from an admin, write to ops or pick an admin and send them a PM.
cdpaliden

I have no idea why you think you haven’t been heard. We’re actively developing and testing a proposed feature that directly addresses the core issues that result in the problem you’ve described - not just because of your post here but because of the pain this problem causes to everyone.
Because as stated above, there was no feedback that I had been heard. No communication in the other direction - I threw out an idea and never heard whether it was even being considered…or even, “hey, there’s this other thing we’re working on that ought to solve your issue.” I didn’t know about this testing until well after I had given up on hearing back from anyone.
Plus, you’ve gotten replies from two moderators who combined have been on the site for more than a decade and who actually spend hours a week working on this specific issue and instead of replying to our points you’ve asked to ‘talk to a manager’.
LightningBolt seemed to at least have the same problem I pointed out, but since their response was one line, I didn’t feel such a simple statement needed one. As for you, I think the conversation record here is quite clear, I HAVE been engaging with you, eagerly may I add. Every time you put down a response, I replied substantively to your comment - where I thought you were right, where I thought there was misunderstanding, and where I disagreed and thought you were wrong. As for wanting to ‘talk to a manager’ that is purely because my understanding of how administrations typically function - that moderators themselves don’t dictate policy, but implement it. There was nothing malicious about my request, I just wanted:
an honest conversation about the practicality of implementing my proposal as clearly stated.
If this is not how Derpibooru’s Administration functions, clearly communicating that fact would’ve cleared up that misunderstanding, and led to more healthy conversation. Instead, neither was I corrected on this assumption, nor did I receive any indication that administration had even received my proposal, let alone had interest with it. This has led to myself getting frustrated and giving up on my desire to help a site that I frequent, and wish to see healthier…and led me to wonder WHAT point is there in having a forum section about site (development/function) and policy, if there won’t be any (meaningful) discussion on the subject? Too often in the past users have felt a definite divide between ourselves and administration and I’d pose THIS is why. More than a few times I have received the impression that the administration doesn’t listen or care about the user-base, and simply does what they want without regard for us. This experience has only solidified that.
As aforementioned, Ciaran, I thank you for your many years of service to this Booru, and I don’t blame you for any of this. That being said, I’m done. I sincerely hope that the new features being tested improve this site…I only wish I could’ve played a small part in that.
Ciaran
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Moderator
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@cdpaliden
Ok, well, I’m sorry. I thought I was discussing this with you and between my and LightningBolt’s replies we were giving you some idea why we’re doing what we’re doing, and how you could help.
I don’t know if any of the admins have seen this, but this general topic is something that we all discuss frequently in the staff channel, so hopefully some of the changes being discussed will result in changes that you are hoping for.
If you would like to check out the proposed upload tag helper, please check out that thread. I’m sure that the dev team would love any testing and feedback that anyone can contribute to that effort. It sounds like the whole thing is going to be rather complex to get right.
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