For what it's worth, mods/admins -- thank you

rainbowdash42

Hey. I don't spend too much time as an active user here; made an account last year just to take part in a comment section with an identity, but I do stop by from time to time to peruse through some images.

I just wanted to throw in my support for the recent rule change regarding hateful ideologies. I fully get that this is, to some degree, an archive site, and that you want to archive as much as possible. But if we are to be a community that is truly tolerable of many perspectives, we absolutely cannot tolerate content which minimizes or marginalizes real world individuals, or which repackages symbols of hate and injustice in a way that alleges to be 'cute' or 'harmless'. A person navigating this site should not have to create a filter just to, for example, avoid symbols that marginalize the genocide of their people.

I plan on keeping an eye on your Patreon. If Derpibooru takes a significant financial hit due to a backlash to new policies restricting hate, I will happily throw some money your way, even though I'm not active here. We need folks like you all in this fandom.

For anyone visiting this thread who disagrees with me, I would ask you kindly to not try to engage in any sort of debate on this thread. There's a large pile of research behind my views, and realistically neither of us are going to convince the other of anything, so I won't be replying to any disagreement here. You have your many threads trying to get this rule change overturned; I will happily uphold your right to dissent, I'm just not personally interested in having this argument right now.

Again, mods and admins, thank you for taking action on this issue. This is a difficult time, in the fandom and broadly in the world, so a lot of things are very complicated right now. It's totally understandable that the scope, impact, and interpretation of this rule is varying, and that it will take some time to solidify (and even then may need to be reevaluated in the future because of the ingenuity of this fandom's artists!). But I would encourage you to remember the Paradox of Intolerance, and to bear in mind that there are probably a heck of a lot of us on your side in this situation, even if we're not quite as loud as those dissenting.

I wish all the best to the hardworking mods and admins of this site. And to all the other users of this site, even those with whom I disagree — thank you as well for being a part of keeping the visual art in this community going.
Wcctnoam
Artist -

Minkiest
I too would like to express my appreciation and support for the changes. It gives me good expectations and a brighter look on the site's future.

I have a handful of years of experience with moderating and I empathise with what you're going through. Thank you for the work you're doing.

Thanks rainbowdash42 for making the thread, I debated making one myself but in the end I abstained. Everyone has their own opinion on this and I think it's good to have a thread of support, as much as having threads against the changes. I hope this thread doesn't get derailed and people can be respectful of each other.
Genryu86
Wallet After Summer Sale -

I would like to echo the gratitude for the changes, I know you are taking a significant amount of shit right now, but stay strong.

We have a problem as a fandom and we won't solve it without a steady hand on the helm to guide us out of the storm, so thank you for being part of that change.
Artiks
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Viking Pony
@rainbowdash42
But if we are to be a community that is truly tolerable of many perspectives, we absolutely cannot tolerate content which minimizes or marginalizes real world individuals, or which repackages symbols of hate and injustice in a way that alleges to be 'cute' or 'harmless'. A person navigating this site should not have to create a filter just to, for example, avoid symbols that marginalize the genocide of their people.


I couldn't have put it better myself.

Thank you, admins and mods, I support this change 100%. Content that promotes hateful ideologies has no place in the pony fandom, and I'm happy that the largest brony website has taken this stance.
Background Pony #6B3A
@Artiks
But stuff like that is already filtered, by default.

@Genryu86
Most of this stuff was created years ago, and in fact for the last few months there was barely any content that would qualify to it.
It's silly to think this will have any real impactful change, to the contrary a lot of art might be produced as a streisand effect.
Helios_Five
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

@Artiks
@rainbowdash42
But if we are to be a community that is truly tolerable of many perspectives, we absolutely cannot tolerate content which minimizes or marginalizes real world individuals, or which repackages symbols of hate and injustice in a way that alleges to be 'cute' or 'harmless'. A person navigating this site should not have to create a filter just to, for example, avoid symbols that marginalize the genocide of their people.


I couldn't have put it better myself.

Thank you, admins and mods, I support this change 100%. Content that promotes hateful ideologies has no place in the pony fandom, and I'm happy that the largest brony website has taken this stance.


Isn't racism, aryanne etc autofiltered by the default filter anyway?
That's like complaining about violent videogames existing when you can just not buy them.

That seems a better solution for those of us who want to laugh at edgy jokes and the absurdity of a white supremacist horse in a world where everyone is pastel colored.
Genryu86
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Helios_Five
@Artiks
@rainbowdash42
But if we are to be a community that is truly tolerable of many perspectives, we absolutely cannot tolerate content which minimizes or marginalizes real world individuals, or which repackages symbols of hate and injustice in a way that alleges to be 'cute' or 'harmless'. A person navigating this site should not have to create a filter just to, for example, avoid symbols that marginalize the genocide of their people.


I couldn't have put it better myself.

Thank you, admins and mods, I support this change 100%. Content that promotes hateful ideologies has no place in the pony fandom, and I'm happy that the largest brony website has taken this stance.


Isn't racism, aryanne etc autofiltered by the default filter anyway?
That's like complaining about violent videogames existing when you can just not buy them.

That seems a better solution for those of us who want to laugh at edgy jokes and the absurdity of a white supremacist horse in a world where everyone is pastel colored.


Except that it creates a climate that makes it more acceptable to align with those ideologies, and in which it's much easier to spread them.
If it was only edgy jokes with no real world impact I would agree, but I feel that it'd be hard to argue that it's just that, when in the world there is a resurgence of those ideologies.
Background Pony #EB8A
Don't really want to shit up your thread, but the argument that censorship is good because it keeps people safe from seeing certain stuff is ridiculous given that people have tools to filter what content they will see.

Censorship is about one thing and one thing only: Someone choosing which information someone else is not allowed to see. It has nothing to do about protection, only restriction.
Background Pony #6B3A
@Genryu86
This is just extremely speculative of you though, it is equally silly to argue that a bunch of pony pitures is responsible for the current happenings of the world, and not something much more societal that this thread isn't fit for discussing.

What you just described could be applied to a LOT OF CONTENT on this website. Rape has always been an issue, a lot of rape victim are triggered by seeing rape, and yet a lot of pictures on tis website glorify rape a lot. Therefore you should be arguing that rape pictures should be equally banned as it promotes rape, and you can't say that rape isn't a societal issue.

None of us defending this are saying that nazism is good, or would act pettily like trump if the website decided to add more filters or some disclaimers on pictures with the tags, we just see this move , that was knee jerked, made by a few people without any discussion, to be the start of a slope that will not end well for the website.
Potluck

stupid little brat
"Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company."

I for one am definitely happy to see these changes going through. I certainly hope that this amounts to more than just lip service from the staff. A community is defined by its members and its leadership. The brony fandom has been pretending for far too long that we do not have a responsibility to curate our community or hold it to a set of standards. Welcoming racists and bigots into the fandom by ignoring them, claiming they're a small problem or pretending they're harmless jokes has shown that we as a community have no standards whatsoever.

We can't claim to be fostering a welcoming, safe or friendly community when we host and protect ideologies who spread bigoted lies. Whom are explicitly racist and homophobic and transphobic. Free speech is an EXTREMELY important concept SPECIFICALLY because speech and ideas influence the real world, influence how we think, and behave. To suggest that ideas do not impact our world, merely because they are depicted as cute ponies would be to suggest otherwise. The media we consume and the communities we spend time in absolutely influences our opinions and our actions.

The paradox of intolerance is older than this fandom is. We as a community should have addressed this problem years ago, but the next best time to do so is now.
Genryu86
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Background Pony #6B3A
@Genryu86
This is just extremely speculative if you though, it is equally silly to argue that a bunch of pony pitures is responsible for the current happenings of the world, and not something much more societal that this thread is fit for discussing.

I'm not arguing that this is solely responsible obviously, but I'd argue it contributes to it however slighly
And even then, my argument isn't that it would be bad for the world, but that it would be bad for the site and the community.
Being a breeding ground for hateful ideology hurts the community itself 1st of all.

What you just described could be applied to a LOT OF CONTENT on this website. Rape has always been an issue, a lot of rape victim are triggered by seeing rape, and yet this site glorify rape a lot. Therefore you could argue that rape pictures should be equally banned.

It could be applied to a lot of content, and if it turned out that we had a big problem with real life rape in the brony community, I could see similar arguments for more responsibly platforming that kind of content.
Right now we have a problem with hateful ideologies so I'm arguing for more responsible platforming of that kind of content.


None of us defending this are saying that nazism is good, or would act pettily like trump if the website decided to add more filters or some disclaimers on pictures with the tags, we just see this move , that was knee jerked, made by a few people without any discussion, to be the start of a slope that will not end well for the website.


I really don't feel that's the case, from the posts I saw from the moderators in the related thread, to me it feels like it was a pretty even handed move, but the nature of a "slippery slope" discussion is that there isn't anything I can show you that demonstrates that it's not one, as much as there isn't anything you can show me to demonstrate that it is.
Twilestia
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
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Undesirable?
@Genryu86
Issues with Pedophilia and rape like all the brony "stars" getting caught doing it and all the drama involving them? And we only know of that because of the status of those people. No one know the true extent of it.


Though my main gripe with the selective rule application that happened here. The admins selecting one hateful ideology and declaring that any other, especially communism is still encouraged by them.
Background Pony #6B3A
@Genryu86

I'm not arguing that this is solely responsible obviously, but I'd argue it contributes to it however slighly
And even then, my argument isn't that it would be bad for the world, but that it would be bad for the site and the community.
Being a breeding ground for hateful ideology hurts the community itself 1st of all.


Calling it a "breeding ground" is a giant overreaction. People don't come here from nowhere, they are already fan, already have fan places to talk the show and whatnot, this is not a meeting website.

It could be applied to a lot of content, and if it turned out that we had a big problem with real life rape in the brony community, I could see similar arguments for more responsibly platforming that kind of content.

We had. There was quite a few people in the past who got accused of Sexual harassment, like one of the main staffer at bronycon. There has been at least 2 cases of people claiming there was a child predator at a con, though one was always hotly debated as fake for drama(reported on tumblr 4 days after the con ended and whatnot.)
The fact that you are saying this show that you yourself are being selective. You don't want to address a specific issue because it is not pertaining to you, or your knowledge of the fandom (or it is only serious IF it's a problem in the fandom, and not worldwide.). Does this also means that if someone with a specific agenda was willing to dig up every single dirty stories about a specific issue in the fandom you would be willing to censor the images about it?

Responsible platforming can be done by educating people, not censorship. It's the difference between Warner bros' take and Disney (who tries to literally erase their past and pretend it never happened).

Right now we have a problem with hateful ideologies so I'm arguing for more responsible platforming of that kind of content


It's equally silly to say "right now". Most offensive pictures have been there for years, and there was some article made 6 years ago with something akin to this (but I saw like 2 from both side of the aisle back then) . There hasn't been a "resurgence" of her art recently at all. The only reason this is talked again nowadays is because a certain SOMEONE went to the journalist to tell them about it.

as much as there isn't anything you can show me to demonstrate that it is.


Literally three weeks ago the Admins were saying there wasn't going to be any censorship, that this was just a temporary changedue to current events.
The timing of this makes it extremely hard to debate it's not a slippery slope.
Potluck

stupid little brat
@Twilestia

That is because such a rule needs to be handled with care, on a case by case basis. Using sweeping generalized rules under the guise of "fairness" only does more harm than good.

Right now the problem is racist and hateful nazi and right-wing extremist bronies, and it IS a problem and they ARE making others in the fandom unwelcome. Since that is the CURRENT problem, it's the problem being addressed. When the fandom has a problem with communist bronies spreading racist and bigoted hatespeech, it will be addressed.
Genryu86
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Background Pony #6B3A
I see we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, and sorry, I only have so much time to dedicate to this.
I'll just clear this up because it's the one thing I feel I've not been clear enough on, the rest hopefully you can see where I come from even tho you disagree with it.

I am aware of the sexual misconduct through the fandom, but when that happens what I see is overhwleming condamnation of the act and its perpreator(s), and I see a very different reaction to fascism and racism, so that's what makes the two issues different in my mind in severity, if not in nature.
Now, I have only my perspective to base myself on, but that's what I see.
Background Pony #6B3A
@Genryu86
but when that happens what I see is overhwleming condamnation of the act and its perpreator(s), and I see a very different reaction to fascism and racism,

My point was never about the acceptance (or refusal) of any behavior in the fandom, just related to its depictions and treatment on this website.
I would be totally okay with the pictures to even have a "no comment" policy attached to it if reactions to it are the issue.
Raptorshy
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Raptorshy
I know this is going to come off as a "only good things about us pls" plea, but please try to stay on-topic at least. This just isn't a great thread to debate these topics and there are plenty of threads already discussing this stuff.

Thank you for remaining civil though, I appreciate it.
Potluck

stupid little brat
@Background Pony #6B3A

The Derpi ban is fairly specific towards images that glorify nazism or demean the victims of the holocaust. I think it is fair to consider glorifying nazism as extreme right wing. I'd also like to bring in an argument of yours you brought up: The difference between Warner Bros. and Disney that you describe isn't fully accurate. Warner Bros. annotates its prior racist content to give the viewer context on the subject matter, and in addition, they don't produce or distribute content of that nature any longer outside of the archived media. But the important distinction is they don't produce content like that any longer, and are quicker to respond if they did unknowingly. Derpi's ban is similar.
Background Pony #6B3A
@Parasprite
None of the people here are in the thread discussing this stuff, it is hard to have a conversation otherwise. Furthermore YOU haven't been in the respective thread yourself to explain yourself, despite multiple calls for that.

@Potluck
This is true, if theres one thing I will give to them is their grandfathering of the rules. Something I already praised them for, especially because some do calls for a total purge.

Despite my many posts, and while I like Aryanne, I also think like you that this ban would be extremely minimal and, if the spotlight wasn't brought to it, would only affect a tiny fraction of pictures in the future. (The streisand effect is bound to affect it though, and it is also starting to create troll/taunting pictures like this .)

The reason I personally debate and protest this is because after this (and the lack of responsability/community discussion by the administration regarding this) I do NOT have any trust at all in the administration for the future. I also believe this is the case for a lot of the artists currently issuing DNPs. Wether the slippery slope is real or not, there is absolutely nothing to guarantee us that a random trash article in the future won't be used to add more rules to that list, considering that again, they said 3 weeks ago that nothing would be done.

I would love to see the thought process for this decision or any clear message about it. So far everything that happened this month on this side has been handled with the PR level of a potato and it is sad to see.
Potluck

stupid little brat
@Background Pony #6B3A
The truth of the matter is that none of this content should have been considered acceptable within the community from the start except under extremely specific circumstances, like in the instance of the Equestria at War mod. The fact that we as a community for years allowed this problem to become as bad as it has, and as tacitly accepted as it has is the only reason we're seeing a Streisand Effect today. Had we had the presence of mind to curate the community better from the start the issue would not be this contentious.

But since we don't have the luxury of making things right in the past, we must not delay in doing something now.
Raptorshy
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Raptorshy
@Background Pony #6B3A
I agree, and this is fair. I'm working on regrouping us and working out a gameplan so that we're more organized and everyone all around is clear on the situation. It will take some time though, so expect some silence for the moment.
Background Pony #1A06
For anyone visiting this thread who disagrees with me, I would ask you kindly to not try to engage in any sort of debate on this thread.

All right, I'll simply disagree with your support for this change and point out some incorrect information.

A person navigating this site should not have to create a filter just to, for example, avoid symbols that marginalize the genocide of their people.

"Nazi" is filtered by default.
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