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Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism Search Posts
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Derpy Whooves
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@CHurricane  
Using the rule together is a part of how we train everyone and make sure that we all agree. But that doesn’t mean all of us feel comfortable trying to explain the rule here.
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Northern
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I refuse to bend
@Derpy Whooves  
…First off: Making sure you all agree defeats the purpose of a group discussion. Secondly: Making sure you train people to agree with you breeds staff bias. Third: Not everyone has to be comfortable, but someone should be, the explanation as given so far is woefully inadequate and contradicts itself on every enforcement. Fourth: You are admitting to allowing people who don’t know what the rule means to vote on the outcome of its application?
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CHurricane
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@Derpy Whooves  
I dont think that voting on actuall deletions is a good way to train people it’s like training a pilot by siting him in the plane full of people on his first day and telling him to make a 12 hours long flight across theglobe. You(staff) have access to deleted pictures from the past so why don’t you take some of them and make a test that will help you train them in controlled enviroment first to make sure they understand the rules(at least in basic sense) before allowing them to vote on actuall deletions?
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Derpy Whooves
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@Northern  
If we don’t agree then we didn’t reach consensus. With Rule #5 the image might be deleted if it’s on the borderline. With Rule #0 it doesn’t get deleted if there is no clear result. That’s the process. And we’re not training people on how to think - good grief. Have you never worked someplace where there was a new rule and everyone had to work with it to figure out how it worked? It’s like you’ve never had a real job, where people had to work with something to figure out how it worked.
 
@CHurricane  
Sometimes, saying what we mean is how we figure out what we think. And there’s a long LONG long way between; “Ok, how does this work in practice” and “I have never seen a plane before”.
 
You(staff) have access to deleted pictures from the past
 
Not with the new rule. We have to build a jurisprudence from when we can judge future cases. Normally only after a couple days with a new rule we all get it. This time it’s taking longer, mainly because it’s taking longer to actually build up a set of examples that didn’t get questioned and reversed.
 
take some of them and make a test
 
That’s great once the rule has been in use, and pretty much how we train new site assistants. But useless if the rule hasn’t been used yet. And the votes aren’t “press the yes or no button”. They’re “How about this one?” and then a one or two hour discussion ensues. In the end, we all figure out what we feel about images as a team, get a firmer feeling for how we are all interpreting the rule, and it’s easier for someone to act knowing how such images generally are handled.
 
It’s like going to a tradeshow with some new product. It’s never been sold before, so all we know about it is what we’ve learned in developing and testing it and what the marketing team says. But once we start using it those stop being “I’ve heard that” and they become “This is what it does”. Day one, everyone is waiting for the admins to say things so we can all hear the message. Usually after an hour of that someone else can step in and give the admin a break. This time it’s taking longer to get the message down. I can tell you what we thought when we were developing the new rule, but no rubber survives contact with the road any more than any product survives contact with end users.
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Background Pony #0CFF
@Derpy Whooves  
But, yeah — there’s nuances in this new rule change that I don’t get yet.
 
Then you shouldn’t be a deciding factor on deletions until then, this goes for everyone else who doesnt understand the nuance.
 
@Derpy Whooves  
But useless if the rule hasn’t been used yet.
 
The problem with you saying this is that you had a thread where users publicly saw how moderators voted on a set of images regarding rule 0 and gave you direct feedback on such decisions.  
It’s hardly a brand new never-before-tested-outside-the-lab thing as you imply.  
This time it’s taking longer, mainly because it’s taking longer to actually build up a set of examples that didn’t get questioned and reversed.
 
This is happening for two reasons.  
Your initial decision methodology is flawed.  
Or  
You (the site staff) are bending to public pressure on particular images.
 
I can tell you what we thought when we were developing the new rule
 
Please do.
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Northern
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I refuse to bend
@Derpy Whooves  
If we don’t agree then we didn’t reach consensus. With Rule #5 the image might be deleted if it’s on the borderline. With Rule #0 it doesn’t get deleted if there is no clear result. That’s the process. And we’re not training people on how to think — good grief. Have you never worked someplace where there was a new rule and everyone had to work with it to figure out how it worked? It’s like you’ve never had a real job, where people had to work with something to figure out how it worked.
That’s rich. Your wording suggested that you use the implementation of the rule to train people to agree: Specifically, you said “Using the rule together is a part of how we train everyone and make sure that we all agree”, which indicates that the training is wrapped into the same process as the ‘making sure we agree’ part. If you don’t want me to draw conclusions about what you’re saying, don’t say things imprecisely.
 
I’ve worked with plenty of people and the one thing that every work environment I’ve ever been a part of (formal job or otherwise) was absolutely clear on was that everyone’s understanding of the rules and their implementation needs to be complete so that the staff can comply with the rules as well. If anything, that same argument applies to your understanding of how staff interaction works in an environment, even a volunteer one, that has a set of rules.
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Derpy Whooves
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@Derwol  
Depends. We did a bulk vote recently where we’re still looking through how everyone voted, and we’ve talked about why some of us said ‘yes’ for some images and ‘no’ for others, and most of us are going back through again to make sure that we wanted to vote the way we voted. For myself, when you create an image that’s a reference to something or otherwise allegorical, that makes it more art sometimes, and more likely to be something that I think we should hang onto in the ‘snapshot’. In other cases, something that for me was fairly seminal to the /b/ vs /co/ fights where I originally was confused why anyone would think it broke any rule, after talking about it I can see how it might be something we shouldn’t host.
 
@Northern  
don’t say things imprecisely
 
Maybe.
 
everyone’s understanding of the rules and their implementation needs to be complete
 
Oh my god we’ve worked in very different environments. This isn’t McDonald’s - it’s an art gallery. Shit be imprecise and defies simple explanation almost most of the time.
 
@Background Pony #0CFF  
No. This is a my little pony site with a volunteer team. We figure it out as we go.
 
It’s hardly a brand new never-before-tested-outside-the-lab thing as you imply.
 
In that case, you must understand every nuance of the new rule. So … what’s the problem?
 
This is happening for two reasons
 
Reason 3: We’re all burnt out.  
Reason 4: This particular rule is taking more time than any of us have to spend on it.  
Reason 5: More critical issues on the site take precedence.  
Reason 6: Staff are not as invested in this as you are.  
Reason 7: Some of us have a very small budget of ‘lets talk about nazis’ time.  
Reason 8: It’s not binary.
 
Please do
 
Read the rest of the sentence. What we thought was going to happen is no help when it’s in production.
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Northern
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I refuse to bend
@Derpy Whooves
Shit be imprecise and defies simple explanation almost most of the time.
No one’s asking for a simple explanation. Everyone’s asking for a complete explanation. It is important for the integrity of the site’s rules that the users understand what rules are being used to govern their interactions, if people are not made aware of the rules, how can one justifiably be upset at them for breaking them? Furthermore: Where I and you have worked is irrelevant, and I resent the way you’re trying to get under my skin by insinuating my work history is shameful in comparison to yours. Kindly desist.
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Derpy Whooves
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@Northern  
I’m never upset at people for not understanding the rules. We have to explain things like “don’t edit an artist’s work if they have a ‘do not edit’ DNP” - it’s pointless to be upset at people for not understanding a rule or one of the site’s guidelines or practices. We’re doing this with people.
 
Now if you have a question about Rule #0, please ask it, preferably with a more civil approach.
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Princess Luna
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@Derwol  
I already gave reasoning on it before.
 
@Northern  
In most environments, rules are created by an authority and handed down to people below to enforce, but in this one, the rule was crafted from the ideas of everyone on staff and are enforced by all staff with equal voting weight. While I’m the one that assembled the rule, and often the one to enact decisions, I only keep staff within reason in terms of how they discuss and vote, so differing ideas of things can lead to some difficulty with everyone understanding the overall picture. The idea is that over time, as we accrue decisions, we can point to them and consider consistency, to narrow down how staff should think about this stuff.
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Derpy Whooves
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@Derwol  
Well, people asked for a review of everything, and they seem to want us to make everything consistent so no image is on the site if it had been uploaded today with today’s rules, so … that means we’re looking at stuff that we never looked at before. And it turns out there are a lot of images that none of us have ever seen before. But if there’s an image from 9 years ago with the message “Gas the Kikes” then, yeah - that is probably going to be gone.
 
@Princess Luna  
Yeah - very much so. There’s also the element of “Woah, now that we’re actually using this rule, maybe this needs to be sanded down a little.” It’s like testing a new crank shaft - you don’t just hit the accelerator, you give it a turn, then another, then build it up to speed slowly making sure it runs true and looking for any unexpected problems.
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PSA: R0 was changed!
@Princess Luna  
That reasoning is insufficient. I fail to see how simply having Milky Way sitting there, be it because of where she’s sitting, or who she’s sitting next to, is somehow “inciting violence” against the OC’s creator.  
Various ponies are sitting in rafts that are named after all of the altboorus. They’re not tying any particular character to any one place. To believe that is to see something in the image that isn’t there.
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@Derpy Whooves  
So … what’s the problem?
 
Inconsistant enforcement, i’ve been quite clear on that point throughout this.
 
Everything you said ties into reason 1, flawed decison making.  
If people are burnt out, dont care, dont want or dont have time to talk about these rules, then they shouldnt be involved in the decison making.  
If that results in only one person making the decisons then so be it, at least that one person would be clear with what they’re doing.
 
Understand my request.  
I’m asking for the thought process that occured as you were crafting the rules, preferably alao after you recieved public feedback.  
I know full well it didnt survive 3 seconds of public scrutiny, i want to know what you were all thinking during ‘production’, as you put it.
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@Princess Luna  
If the rule was created by everyone on staff, how could any member of staff not understand it??? This is a blatant contradiction in terms.
I only keep staff within reason in terms of how they discuss and vote, so differing ideas of things can lead to some difficulty with everyone understanding the overall picture. The idea is that over time, as we accrue decisions, we can point to them and consider consistency, to narrow down how staff should think about this stuff.
The problem with this is that trying to weed out differing ideas and nail down a specific definition is exactly what we’ve been asking for thus far. My question: to put it simply, is the following:
 
What is the complete explanation of Rule#0 as it is currently being implemented?
 
You are the one who assembled this rule, you understand its application better than anyone. If you cannot give a complete explanation, not a simple one, but a complete one… Then literally no one can. So please, as is the entire point of this thread in the first place, I would like nothing more than a complete explanation that does not contradict itself. There’s nothing in this thread that has not contradicted an implementation in some way yet.
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Derwol
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@Derpy Whooves  
@Derwol
Well, people asked for a review of everything, and they seem to want us to make everything consistent so no image is on the site if it had been uploaded today with today’s rules, so … that means we’re looking at stuff that we never looked at before. And it turns out there are a lot of images that none of us have ever seen before. But if there’s an image from 9 years ago with the message “Gas the Kikes” then, yeah - that is probably going to be gone.
 
“People” certainly hadn’t done that.  
“And it turns out there are a lot of images that none of us have ever seen before”  
Obviously, there’s more than 2 million images on the site. No one human alive has seen all of them.
 
You’re seriously playing with fire. If anyone ever again denies the existence of slippery slope I will punch them in the balls. Now we’re having almost a decade old fandom history deleted. Abso-lutely incredible. Do none of you care about this fandom at all?
 
 
Seriously, who are those mysterious people? People on twitter? People on discord? Do our voices on the forums here not matter in the slightest even though we’ve been sitting here since the entire drama began? Who the actual fuck are you catering to other than yourselves.
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@Derpy Whooves  
You gotta keep in mind that your interpretation of the rules allows a grey area.
 
You are basing your judgement on your opinion, thinking or wanting the whole community to reason like you do.
 
What worries me, since our last conversation is the way you, and other staff members are jumping to conclusion and prefer not to care to check a given situation.
 
That’s worrying, that’s not even professionalism, god forbid honesty in regards of your own rules.
 
Not with the new rule. We have to build a jurisprudence from when we can judge future cases.
 
This is not how any of this works!
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Peace to all
@Derpy Whooves  
Well, people asked for a review of everything, and they seem to want us to make everything consistent so no image is on the site if it had been uploaded today with today’s rules, so … that means we’re looking at stuff that we never looked at before. And it turns out there are a lot of images that none of us have ever seen before. But if there’s an image from 9 years ago with the message “Gas the Kikes” then, yeah — that is probably going to be gone
 
Under a restricted standard in the context of certain offensive imagery I’d be okay with that under the reasoning that y’all already banned stuff like certain anti-Semitic tropes long ago. If it were to extend to say, “this screencap from 4chan has X thing in the background”, then I would most certainly not be okay with it.
 
 
@Derwol  
Well, Derpy said here:  
@Derpy Whooves  
Maybe there are better fits for rules under which it could have arguably have been deleted, and perhaps ‘bait’ shouldn’t have been in the deletion reason. But the important thing is that it is not an image that we wish to host because of the reasons that Princess Luna stated.
 
Without bait, then the only reasoning that is left is that Milky Way is featured “very prominent and staring at the viewer”, which as a standard confusing considering all the other times Milky has been used with a whole host of other messages. Officially it is “confidential” though I think the reason is clear that they made a special exception because the artist didn’t want it. I can understand them not wanting a hate mob but creating special exceptions and then fitting them to rules is not good governance.
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