Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism

Background Pony #AB73
@Background Pony #AB73  
That’s cute. You get to insult me and then delete my responses for “beligerance”.
 
Hey, buddy, stop trying to shift the target onto me and just openly admit that you lied about not meaning it and you hate anyone who draws or posts Aryanne, just like you did to fozzlepip.
Princess Luna
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I’m going to ignore the whole last page of things for now because I’m not sure it’s really relevant to rule enforcement:
 
>>2412061 has been restored.
 
New deletions to report (this DOES NOT include images that are still under review, even if they are currently deleted, only ones that we’re reasonably sure on already):  
1 - 1062553: Aryanne in SS uniform masturbating to unseen parties dying in a gas chamber.  
2 - 457970: Human in SS uniform pressing the button to activate a gas chamber Rarity is in.  
3 - 1991095: Anthro Aryanne about to shoot a human male with hammer & sickle armband and rainbow mask in front of a “fake” gas chamber. Note that I believe the rainbow mask to be an important factor here (suggests homophobic reasons for the execution).  
4 - 1633386: Pinkie and Aryanne dabbing as Aryanne presses the button to activate a gas chamber Gilda is in.
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Looking For My Doctor
@Background Pony #AB73  
I don’t hate anyone who draws Aryanne. I’d would just personally prefer the community be primarily made up of artists or fans who genuinely celebrate and enjoy My Little Pony, like fozzlepip. If you’re just here to create drama and harass other users, or are only here to celebrate Nazi-themed OCs, then I’d prefer you went elsewhere.
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PSA: R0 was changed!
@Princess Luna  
4 is humour based upon a juxtaposition. I found it rather funny because of its content, bot because I endorsed said content.
 
That being said I don’t see any reason why these would need to be deleted. Aside from staff just picking and choosing things to get deleted because they can.
Background Pony #AB73
@Derpy Whooves  
Nope. That’s not what you said. You said people “posting nazi ponies”. I can see why you feel that you were stabbed in the back, but it was your past mistake thinking that all of the trash you talk would never get out that caused this. And you still haven’t provided that supposed much needed context.
 
Just say it. You’ve pretty much given up pretending that you didn’t mean it at this point, throwing away that whole post you made earlier by the way.
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Princess Luna
 
 
Hi there  
I would like to ask again few questions that might have been lost in discussion:
 
  1. Does image of aryanne dabbing in front of gas chamber is deleted permanently or is there a chance that it will be restored?
     
    2 if people inside gass chamber pic(the masturbation one) werent begging to be let out but instead they would for example: “moan in pleasure” would then that pic be allowed?(same pic just changed text)
     
    And now new questions:
     
 
Anthro Aryanne about to shoot a human male with hammer & sickle armband and rainbow mask in front of a “fake” gas chamber. Note that I believe the rainbow mask to be an important factor here (suggests homophobic reasons for the execution).
 
 
Would the same picture with diferent mask be ok?
 
Also personally i dont think that rainbow by itself should be considered indication that executed person is a homosexual. Rainbow is also a christian symblo for example( if i remember corectly the christian one have 7 colours while pride flag have 6)
 
 
4. You mention in first two pictures that they were wearing ss uniforms now i am not an ww2 uniform expert but i think that the aryane masturbating is not an ss uniform(i might be mistaken) what i want to ask is: Is a certain uniform a factor in judging image like for example ss is bad but wermaht or luftwaffe uniforms are more “ok”
 
Also if you are not certain that those were ss uniforms i would sugest to edit your post to say “german ww2 stylized  
uniforms”( word “stylized” eliminates loophole of useing historically incorrect or slightly changed uniform and i think the aryanne masturbateing is incorrect historicaly)because it would help with confusion.
Background Pony #AB73
@Derpy Whooves  
Diminishing point? My point is the same it always has been: you’re a liar who insults users behind their backs.  
And you can’t refute it no matter how you try so you resort to this. You’re not even a cornered rat because at least the rat would fight instead of cowering behind deletions, bans, and complaints about off-topic.
 
I want you to post here, openly in the forums, that you do not value anyone who posts or draws Aryanne and you lied every time you tried to make up some nonsense excuse for the comment you made to fozzlepip. Just do it already so we can both move on.
Princess Luna
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@CHurricane  
I would not consider there to be a high chance of restoration (our approach would need to change drastically for that to be on the table.)  
I think moaning in pleasure would suggest they’re not dying, so it wouldn’t be the same, and probably be okay.  
A different mask would probably make it okay.
 
As to the uniform, the visor cap Aryanne is wearing is clearly meant to be a Waffen SS version but with her cutie mark replacing the skull; non-SS versions had much larger emblems in that position.  
SS uniforms specify someone is actually a Nazi, not just German military, which provides a big contextual clue that what’s going on is about murdering people for their race and not just a generic execution of some kind, although I’d hesitate to say that a gas chamber and a regular German army uniform would be seen as not being a Holocaust reference and thus by default about killing Jews.
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
 
>>2412061 has been restored.
 
Did you have internall discussion about this picture or did you at least inform the staff member that deleted this picture why he made a mistake so he/she would avoid repeating it in the future?
Background Pony #AB73
@Princess Luna  
Could you give the reason the dab and masturbation are gone with no chance of restoration? It would really help to find other images that fit the criteria, which I imagine will be a fairly wide net if a joking killing image and fetishized killing image are no good.
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Looking For My Doctor
I want you to post here, openly in the forums, that you do not value anyone who posts or draws Aryanne
 
I utterly disagree with this statement, and I wish you would stop trying to foist it on me. I think some artists have drawn really amazing images of OC:Aryanne that I’m very happy that we are hosting, and some of the people who have uploaded oc:aryanne images are among the best uploaders this site has. The world is not, for me, the black-and-white everything is truth or everything is lies that it seems the world is for you. For example, Kanashiipanda’s amazing work is, for me, a master’s class in character, animation, perspective, presentation, and satire. Even their image compression is at the top of its game. And the person who uploaded that is a Really Classy Artist. That said, I think the original Rule #5 that forbade most nazi-themed content would have been infinitely more survivable for the site, and workable for staff, than what has happened in its place.
 

 
But, as I am pretty sure I have said consistently throughout all of this, if you’re only here to post nazi ponies or to join in a nazi-pone themed community, then I really wish you’d find a more appropriate site.
 
and you lied every time you tried to make up some nonsense excuse for the comment you made to fozzlepip.
 
Fozzlepip was one of the first artists that I worked to save, during a time that our rules were swinging wildly as was our leadership, without any (or very little) notice or any long term plan. But with them as with any artist, my primary goal was presenting the message of the site and admins, and trying to create a welcoming place for them, regardless of my personal feelings (although, admittedly, I felt that Fozzlepip was, if not a friend, then someone who could have been a friend, so I did say things to them that were more personal than what I’d said to other artists in the same situation) and regardless of the reasons they were leaving the site. Personally, I think that you are obsessed by a single word over the course of hundreds of PMs to hundreds of artists, during a time that the site was going from utterly forbidding all nazi-themed content to whatever it is that we have now, with artists leaving for a very wide variety of reasons from being pro- or anti- Black Lives Matter to leaving because we either don’t support LGBTQ artists and fans strongly enough, or because we refuse to ban LGBTQ themed images from the site. If in the middle of all of that you found a sentence or word that offended you, well that’s not surprising, is it? I found lots of sentences and words that offended me, too.
 
Just do it already so we can both move on.
 
As much as I am sure that it would give you what you need for closure, it would not be true.
Background Pony #AB73
Deletion reason: Rule #0/6: Carrying on argument about personal matters off the thread topic
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
As to the uniform, the visor cap Aryanne is wearing is clearly meant to be a Waffen SS version but with her cutie mark replacing the skull; non-SS versions had much larger emblems in that position.
SS uniforms specify someone is actually a Nazi, not just German military, which provides a big contextual clue that what’s going on is about murdering people for their race and not just a generic execution of some kind, although I’d hesitate to say that a gas chamber and a regular German army uniform would be seen as not being a Holocaust reference and thus by default about killing Jews.
 
Well as i said i am not a uniform expert so if you say that you are certain that those are ss uniforms then i have to agree.
 
But i have to disagree with only associateing ss with killing on racial/ethinc ground other military formation did it too both indirectly and directly so execution by soldier wearing wermaht uniform could also be racially motivated.
 
 
I think moaning in pleasure would suggest they’re not dying, so it wouldn’t be the same, and probably be okay.
 
What if they were gasping for air or commenting that they cant breathe between moans but still without begging to be let out?
 
A different mask would probably make it okay.
 
So hammer and sicle or antifa flag is not a problem?(execution for political belives/being part of organization or group)
 
What if instead of those symbols there was a BLM logo?
 
 
 
I would not consider there to be a high chance of restoration (our approach would need to change drastically for that to be on the table.)
 
I think this is a bad decision with this pic but in that case i would like to ask the question in reference to our discussion in other thread in recent past.
 
My comment(only first point)
 
 
Your reply
 
So my question is:  
If someone took dabbing aryanne pic and then put nice black square on window with gryphon and then two smaller ones on text on a button so the picture would be: aryane and pinkie dabbing in front of a door (while someone is banging on them) and is pressing random button on the wall and then lets say that picture like that would be uploaded then would be that picture ok?
 
 
And now second part of question: if censor methodes described above(or even more extensive like blacking also aryanne hat) would be considered “enough” to make that picture acceprable to host on this site then what about linking to the uncensored picture on for example ponybooru?
 
In your response to my comment you said that posting a link to other site is ok as long as it doesnt take person directly to that picture(ink bunny required account) but ponybooru works symilar to derpibooru so if you got direct link to a picture(even filtered by default and without account) then you can acces it without account of course it doesnt show you picture immediatly but a tag warrning that person has to mannualy press to access the image  
||this is the link to said uncensored image if you press it without the account there you will see what random user clicking the link would see  
||
 
Would that be considered a methode that  
“doesn’t immediately take any random person to the uncensored version.”
 
Or is it still to “direct” of a methode of linking the oryginall image and more indirect methode like only stateing site and image id( so user have tovassemble pieces themself) in description had to be taken. Or does only sites that require account there to see pictures like IB can be considered for this kind os stuff?
CHurricane
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Devil's Advocate
@William Flutter
 
Antifa flag was on that picture already. also BLM is a movement(with honorable idea at least in the beginning but it become more controvertial later on)/organization so i personally think that it should not be a problem to discriminate against them(like against any other party/organization) but i want to be shure.
William Flutter

Autobot
@CHurricane  
Considering from what Ive read from this thread (which I kinda dont want to get into in this comment at least), and the fact that hating against BLM is the whole reason why this shit storm started (thanks a fucking bunch Wootmaster)
CHurricane
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Devil's Advocate
@William Flutter
 
Blm was certainly an issue in the past but if i understand corectly rules now prohibit dyscrymination of people based on things that they are not capable of changing(race, sex) or are deeply grounded in them by culture(religion)
 
And rules also prohibit promoting hatefull things like racism nazism etc
 
But dyscrymination based on choices(like politicall affiliation) is allowed.
 
As for certain twitter dweller: i think he wont be happy unless there will be blanked ban on anything he doesnt like regardles of context so unless staff goes full “iron fist” he will remain mad.
Princess Luna
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@CHurricane  
We had internal discussion.
 
@Background Pony #AB73  
The joking and fetishization aren’t really considered; it’s just that the images appear to overall put a positive light on very intensely bad discrimination.
 
@Background Pony #AB73  
I’m putting my foot down here; this thread is for discussing the new rule wording and its enforcement, not whatever issues you have with a moderator’s actions in general, and certainly not something so personal. Put simply, even if you’re right, covering this thread in this isn’t accomplishing anything.
 
@CHurricane  
In regards to executions by soldiers, the idea here is that if it looks like Nazis are using a gas chamber on someone, then before we have extra information specifying why, we assume it’s by race, because Jews were the majority target of that, and it’s not a normal form of execution.  
Gasping for air in between pleasured moans would be rather iffy I think, there’s a decent argument it would be more of a fetish thing than supporting discrimination, but I’m not sure that argument would win out.  
If the dabbing image was censored to where we couldn’t tell it’s Nazis + gas chamber (so one of the two is censored out of being there), I think that would be okay, and yes, since Ponybooru’s Default filter hides it, it shouldn’t be a problem.
 
As for shooting people for political beliefs, note that it would have to stay about as tame, otherwise it may cross into territory like the Chrysalis-and-pig image where it’s considered to be inciting violence.
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
In regards to executions by soldiers, the idea here is that if it looks like Nazis are using a gas chamber on someone, then before we have extra information specifying why, we assume it’s by race, because Jews were the majority target of that, and it’s not a normal form of execution.
Gasping for air in between pleasured moans would be rather iffy I think, there’s a decent argument it would be more of a fetish thing than supporting discrimination, but I’m not sure that argument would win out.
If the dabbing image was censored to where we couldn’t tell it’s Nazis + gas chamber (so one of the two is censored out of being there), I think that would be okay, and yes, since Ponybooru’s Default filter hides it, it shouldn’t be a problem.
 
So if i understand corectly either censoring only gas chamber(door and the button) or only nazi imagery( swastica on hat and armband) in dabbing picture would be enough?(lets say in the dabbing picture i censor hat and armband so no nazi indication but i left griffon banging on the door of uncensored gas chamber would that be ok?)
 
Also does aryanne herself (color palete without cutie mark shown or with censored one) is considered a “nazi indicator”? (So if i want to censor nazis from picture does that mean that i also have to censor whole aryanne and not only her cutie mark?)
 
Another question what in staff eyes qualify as “gas chamber” (what must be present in picture to be considered a gas chamber?) Metal door? Button on wall? Combination of two? Metal door on which someonr is banging from inside(So for exampke again the dabbing pic if i leave nazi imagery present but censor window and whole button but you will still see metal door in background and the banging noise would still be visible would that be considered as “censored enough” to not be considered a gas chamber in background? And if not then what else should also be censored? Banging noises? Whole door and not only window?)
 
 
As for shooting people for political beliefs, note that it would have to stay about as tame, otherwise it may cross into territory like the Chrysalis-and-pig image where it’s considered to be inciting violence.
 
I just wanted to ask about that chrysalis pig as well as the aryanne with pistol and blodied signs that was deleted earlier. So as long as there is not dead person or blood or someone is not actually being killed with political symbols also present then it would be ok?  
So for example if we have a picture of anthro aryanne dressed in ss uniform in front of blm protestors(humans, mostly black but with all races present and both males and females) that carry signs with blm, acab, and some other political slogans(no pride flag or religious symbols) and look scared of aryanne with aryanne taking aim at them(not fireing just aiming like in that deleted pic) with mg34 and shouting that they are for example “stupid asholes” then that picture would be “tame enough”  
But if we take the same picture and change only that aryanne is actually fireing her gun(no blood or dead bodies just bullet leaving the gun and a little fire and smoke going out of the barrel) then that would be not acceptable.
 
Am i correct in my reasoning?
Northern
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I refuse to bend
@Background Pony #0E67  
Absolutely not that’s not what that means. Do you have any idea how a marketplace of ideas works? It’s about challenging things in the open and not letting them fester. If you genuinely believe your ideas are better you have nothing to fear from open competition. The idea with the most merit will win.
 
@Princess Luna  
Gleeful expressions indicate support? Are you insane? The former picture here is famous as an example of a gleeful expression content wise that depicts terror behind, and the other is a picture literally posted of President Trump on an article critical of him. The expression of characters in a picture indicates nothing more than the disposition of the characters in question in the moment in question. Oftentimes the most effective horror is conveyed behind neutral or normal smiling faces. I would like to point to the ‘Mind Break’ fetish tag as a clear example of this being absolutely unevenly applied. If smiling faces are seen as a sign of support then most of the images under that should be seen as ‘supportive’ of rape. If context is what matters, then both are equally wrong on the face of it. The catch 22 still applies here.
 
 
@Derpy Whooves  
Then offer a rebuttal. Show me how the bias doesn’t exist. If you can’t you’re only going to prove the point of everyone here arguing that it does. I’ve offered ample opportunity to argue, demonstrate or functionally process that the way things are being handled violates the idea of an unbiased archive. Kindly give me any argument that supports your position, or stop pretending that you have an answer you don’t have.
 
 
@Derpy Whooves  
I would INFINITELY prefer that artist be on this site and a part of this community than yourself. I mean, it looks like we banned you repeatedly on your very first day here, and it seems the only reason you are on this site is because you feed on drama.
 
But, as I am pretty sure I have said consistently throughout all of this, if you’re only here to post nazi ponies or to join in a nazi-pone themed community, then I really wish you’d find a more appropriate site.
 
The fact that you play favorites helps prove my point too. I wouldn’t and don’t want any voices silenced, you, by your own admission here, value some over others because you disagree with their perspectives or their reasons for being here even though we’re all part of the one community that actually this site was set out to be for: the pony community. There’s really no getting around it from what you’ve said. Your bias is worn on your sleeve, which is commendable, in comparison to others who would hide theirs – but it’s still clear and undeniable bias.
 
@Princess Luna  
1 - Aryanne in character, still a parody of real racism, still a joke that doesn’t make real Nazis.  
2 - Understandable. It’s barely pony related and it is a real world nazi. (technically one might say that it’s a point about how real Nazis would hate ponies and thus relevant satire to this whole drama at this point, but I digress.)  
3 - Again, Aryanne in character, still a parody of prejudice, still a joke that doesn’t make real Nazis.  
4 - Gilda was banging on the window in that picture, clearly distressed, by your own rules earlier in this thread this picture flies because there’s an, as I’ve put it before in image disclaimer as to how bad it is. I can only suggest that this image was deleted because it was very popular in the wake of the controversy, despite the established subrules of the rule in question in this very thread.
 
My arguments still stand, from before and now. Your rules are vague and their application uneven. The whole thing smacks of staff bias and an unwelcoming atmosphere for parts of the community that other parts of the community would have excised, had they the power. I have been and remain open to all arguments in favor of anything, but all I receive every time is inconsistent and unhealthy to the idea of freedom of expression. If you truly value that freedom of expression as more than just a casualty of this conflict, you really should reconsider the road you walk. The pony community is bigger than you, your politics, your tastes, myself, my politics, my tastes or anything and all things between combined. This was a home to that community, but you are quickly losing them. I have been personally contacted by over twenty people (and I’d like to stress: on my private channels) who have friends involved with elements of the site staff or those in favor of censoring content on this site who have informed me directly that they are too intimidated to speak out themselves against what’s happening here and that they feel bullied and suppressed by the environment this is creating, an environment not created through the openness of the community (which would not be the staff’s fault) but one created through specifically bending the rules to suit elements of the community that would silence another (which falls squarely on the shoulders of those who make the rules). These aren’t even the kind of people to draw Nazi pony and neither am I. If that doesn’t make it clear that something is rotten here, I don’t know what will.
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