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Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism

Site and Policy » Explanation of update to Rule #0 for consistency and clarity especially in regards to racism Search Posts
Started by Princess Luna
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Background Pony #0E67
@Seiken  
@Background Pony #0E67
Again the same tired comparison…
@Background Pony #0E67
“dude, nazi have just different opinion, let them just debate freely with us. yeah they draw some pony character killing jews, but hey, to each its own !”.
How often you guys want to continue to try to push the narrative that nazi images is the same thing as being a nazi. Noone is arguing about or for the merits of the nazi ideology…
 
Image depicting ideologies in a positive way can only lead to a trivialization of said ideologies. Allowing this kind of content means, in a way, that you consider this ideology as acceptable, debatable.
Posted Report
Infrayellow
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@Background Pony #0E67  
There’s art on this site that depicts sexualization of minors, sexual assault, rape, gore and murder. Why is it only art of a dead ideology thats unacceptable? I don’t need authoritarians to keep the evil drawings away from me because I’m an individual who can think for myself.
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Background Pony #0E67
By this logic, jerking off to cartoon horses can enable actual zoophilia. Playing violent video games leads to irl violence. Watching incest porn can lead to increase of incest relationship IRL. And so on and so forth.
 
Neither zoophilia, incest and video games are ideologies. None of these things have actually led to genocide. There is no “violent video game” ideology for example, with groups trying to recruit people on the internet, and especially on “geek” communities like here.  
This comparison is clearly fallacious.
 
Unrelated, but just curious: you edited that message, which means that you posted it as an anon, despite being logged on. I thought that only BaD nAzI sUpPoRtErS post like this. *
 
Nice strawman, bro. However it is interesting that you ridicule the criticism of online nazism, it shows maye some sympathy for them, or at least, a disdain for those who criticize this ideology.
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Background Pony #0E67
@Background Pony #71E3  
@Background Pony #0E67
No, what trivializes the ideology is swinging around its label like a hammer to strike anything that you don’t like, you absolute tool; i fucking e, the boy who cried wolf.
 
It’s not “not liking nazism”. That would be quite stupid to delete just any content you don’t like. You’re typically into the nihilism I talked about. You ignore that a promotion of ideologies have consequences. It’s the consequences that are being fought here, it is simply not a matter of taste.
 
If it was a matter of taste, there would be a lot of shitty, tasteless, pictures to delete
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Edited
Infrayellow
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@Background Pony #0E67  
Art thats blatant propoganda and calls to violence are already deleted. Everything else is just edgy shit being edgy shit. We’ve been over this many times, looking at a cute nazi pony isn’t going to make anyone accepting of genocide.
Posted Report
aperture_tech
Duck - Quacking with portals.

lol
@Background Pony #0E67  
That’s retarded. If simply having aryanne in art is promotion of nazism, then having human on pony sex is promotion of bestiality and foalcon is promotion of pedophilia. Anyway, I’m no longer going to reply to the stupid shit you post and I advise everybody else not to.
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CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
I would also like to hear a reason for deleting the boomer zoomer pic. It was clearly a joke pic so i dont really see a reason.
 
I would also like to hear a reason for deleting the gas chambers pics( both dabbing one and masturbation one) because it looks to me as those pics were treated more harsh only because of presence of aryanne in them.
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Background Pony #0E67
@aperture_tech  
@Background Pony #0E67
That’s retarded. If simply having aryanne in art is promotion of nazism, then having human on pony sex is promotion of bestiality and foalcon is promotion of pedophilia. Anyway, I’m no longer going to reply to the stupid shit you post and I advise everybody else not to.
 
Are you seriously comparing fetishes to ideology ?
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Background Pony #00B8
Seconding the inquiry as to why image 2412376 (haha x go y) was removed, as noted by multiple people:  
@CHurricane  
@aperture_tech  
@Background Pony #AB73  
@Infrayellow  
@Background Pony #71E3  
@aperture_tech  
@aperture_tech
 
 
Also, Philomena still has not re-implemented tags on deletion pages (24 days!), making it more difficult as time goes on for users to pinpoint what images are deleted and attempt to piece together why - a victory for removals by trigger-happy administration.
 
Invoking rule #n is also extremely shady. This should be obvious.
Posted Report
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CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Infinite Winter  
@CHurricane
I still can not believe that in *current year* someone treat picture with dab unironically
 
 
I am actually more curious about the masturbation picture(the dabbing could be interpreted as racist because of griffon but that is streatching interpretation of the rule 0 in my opinion) because it jest shows pony masturbating to other ponies/creatures(we cant see who is gassed on masturbation pic) that are asphyxiating simillary to those two pics( just two minutes of search so mightt not be ideal examples)
 
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And
 
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The only bad implication of aryanne pic is the presence of aryanne in uniform and sign “showers” but beside that __it is not __ saying that racism/holocaust is good, __it is not __ showing other “races” beeing gassed(we dont know who is gassed and who knows mayby there are actualb cryminals being gassed like in US, actually the first pic that i posted might be “more racist” because we see gryphon masturbating to suffocating changeling) and __it is not __ saying that viewer should go and gas some people. The picture is just showing something bad but is not advocating for it and i thought that that was considered acceptable in light of new rules.
 
I would like to also say that i dont like that pic (i might have it as faved in the recent past because i wanted to check if it will get deleted) and the fact that i have to “defend” it is really vexing but i am doing it for principle.
 
 
The biggest problem i have with this situation is (at least in my opinion) lack of consistency in enforcing new rules(i speak about general situation here like boomer pic) if staff cant act without bias then mayby it would be easier both on users and staff to clearly ban nazi/right wing/4chan/other controvertial stuff related pictures openly. It would be a good thing because some staff members would not have to deal with people that they dislike and common users would know claerly what situation they are in.
 
 
@Background Pony #00B8  
Seconding the inquiry as to why image 2412376 (haha x go y) was removed, as noted by multiple people:
@CHurricane
@aperture_tech
@Background Pony #AB73
@Infrayellow
@Background Pony #71E3
@aperture_tech
@aperture_tech
Also, Philomena still has not re-implemented tags on deletion pages (24 days!), making it more difficult as time goes on for users to pinpoint what images are deleted and attempt to piece together why - a victory for removals by trigger-happy administration.
Invoking rule #n is also extremely shady. This should be obvious.
 
Seeing tags on deleted images would be really nice.
 
@aperture_tech  
@CHurricane
Yeah, that was really a straight up dumb deletion. It wasn’t personally targeting anybody, and it was a ponification of a meme. It wasn’t even bait.
 
I fully agree.
 
I will probably stop participateing in the discussion for now. (i live in europe and it’s geting late here) i will probably observe the discussion itself for a little bit longer but i will most likely not reply to anyone(unless i will have torubles with sleeping) for the next few hours.
Princess Luna
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@ArmadilloEater  
It’s rather tricky to determine what’s comedy vs. what’s supportive; that image in particular was going to be a problem one way or another.
 
@Background Pony #5C6E  
Hmm, I’ll look into that. I think it was for bait/trolling, but I’m not sure the deletion’s correct.
 
@Background Pony #00B8  
There’s actually two things on my radar for Philomena UI changes, and that’s one of them; I should probably put in issues on Github at this point as I’ve been very inactive on coding these few weeks.  
The other one is to take some measures in how things are displayed so staff can’t accidentally include sensitive information in screencaps of normal stuff (and in case of people looking over their shoulder etc.).
 
I think the n is for reposting a deleted image on purpose (6 would probably be better); image deletions should be appealed, not simply tried again.
 
@CHurricane  
The main difference really is down to the gas chamber and uniforms; it heavily implies things are being done as part of a killing of people for what race they are in the absence of anything to counteract that. In regards to the images you showed, one thing to note is the victims are shown in a fairly horrific state that rather sends a message to not do this.  
It’s certainly a bit borderline; I don’t think the deletions are close to the “edge” of what will be deleted.
 
Also, as far as deletions in general, I’ll be posting another batch of describing them shortly, after reviewing a few deletions that may have been incorrect.
Posted Report
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Background Pony #DC28
@Background Pony #0E67  
Pictures depicting Aryanne would be simply banned on any normal website
 
Um, no. e621, inkbunny, paheal, furaffinity all allow Aryanne and other nazi pics. it’s actually derpi that’s the only exception due to TSP, Joey and Luna being unable to remain neutral.
Posted Report
Background Pony #AB73
@Princess Luna  
By “reviewing incorrect deletions” do you mean restoring things that shouldn’t have been deleted because you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar while some people still care?  
Like, this is blatant nonsense and the PR speak is getting old. Please just say what’s happening and stop jerking people around waiting for them to burn out on the drama. That’s clearly what’s happening and I’m pretty sure you guys even said that you’ll be slowly deleting things so that you can avoid another shitstorm.
Posted Report
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Princess Luna
 
 
It’s rather tricky to determine what’s comedy vs. what’s supportive; that image in particular was going to be a problem one way or another.
 
So if any picture “is going to be a problem either way” and is hard to interpretate its meaning then its getting deleted? I thought that you were going to delete pictures that are clearly “bad”
 
 
Also, as far as deletions in general, I’ll be posting another batch of describing them shortly, after reviewing a few deletions that may have been incorrect.
 
The problem is here the new rules were supposed to make “going to far” with deleting harder to do.
 
 
The main difference really is down to the gas chamber and uniforms; it heavily implies things are being done as part of a killing of people for what race they are in the absence of anything to counteract that. In regards to the images you showed, one thing to note is the victims are shown in a fairly horrific state that rather sends a message to not do this.
 
I actually can understand that and i admit that my examples were not the best (just 2 min search of something simillar) but i still think that the dabbing pic is innocent and i hope that it will be reinstatet as one of the “incorectly deleted”.
Posted Report
Background Pony #7F29
@Princess Luna  
@ArmadilloEater
It’s rather tricky to determine what’s comedy vs. what’s supportive; that image in particular was going to be a problem one way or another.
 
Yes, I’m sure that image which had a majority positive score and was on the site for years already was going to be a problem.  
Problem for you.
Posted Report
Background Pony #715E
@Princess Luna  
@ArmadilloEater
image deletions should be appealed, not simply tried again.
 
Can you explain how to do that? Deleted images don’t have a report button on them, are we supposed to ask on discord which was closed to the public weeks ago?
Posted Report
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Princess Luna
 
one thing to note is the victims are shown in a fairly horrific state that rather sends a message to not do this.
 
So if the pic with masturbating aryanne did include a “inside the chamber” pannel showing ponies inside in “horrific state” then that picture might have been ok?
 
And second question: does showing victim of rape/murder/etc in horryfic state is in staff interpretation making the picture say to “not do this”
 
I am really concerned about consistency.
 
 
@Background Pony #715E  
@Princess Luna
@ArmadilloEater
image deletions should be appealed, not simply tried again.
Can you explain how to do that? Deleted images don’t have a report button on them, are we supposed to ask on discord which was closed to the public weeks ago?
 
Is discord closed for public now?
Posted Report
Edited
Princess Luna
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@Background Pony #AB73  
In regards to deletions, sometimes things are deleted rather quickly and then discussed immediately after, but it appears that a moderator forgot to do that second part, which has to be corrected.
 
@CHurricane  
The dabbing image was mainly deleted under the reasoning that the gleeful expressions are supportive rather than satirical. There is of course not universal agreement on that interpretation (hence it being a problem either way; many would disagree with it being kept up as well), but I think it’s a rather unusual case and that it is quite possible to do satire on the subject in a clearer way.
 
@Background Pony #715E  
The Discord was only temporarily (for 2 days I believe) closed due to some raiding, so it is definitely an avenue for appealing deletions. There is an IRC channel that can also be used to appeal things, and it is linked in the contact page.
 
@CHurricane  
Possibly, yes. If the image gave the impression that Aryanne’s a terrible pony for actually doing it, then that would be something to consider for keeping it.
Posted Report
Edited
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Princess Luna
 
 
The dabbing image was mainly deleted under the reasoning that the gleeful expressions are supportive rather than satirical. There is of course not universal agreement on that interpretation (hence it being a problem either way; many would disagree with it being kept up as well), but I think it’s a rather unusual case and that it is quite possible to do satire on the subject in a clearer way.
 
So there is no chance of the image being reinstated?
Posted Report
Background Pony #AB73
@Princess Luna  
Why exactly should I believe you? Everything I’ve seen points to you being fully in support of the deletions. There are pages and pages of you arguing in circles to protect things from one side while condemning far jokier images from the other.
 
If you’re being that broad in deleting images that you deem supportive of racism, them perhaps you should visit images that could be deemed supportive of other nasty things. The guro tag glorifies rape, murder, and necrophilia. The foalcon tag glorifies pedophilia. Or does your ability to say that things are supportive of the real version of the depicted subject only apply to Aryanne and similar images?
 
Also, as far as images made to spread racism and stir up drama what are your thoughts on 1661835? I’m sure if I go on a hunt I can easily find other zebradom images that are openly hateful, but this one is also clearly made to start shit.
Posted Report
CHurricane
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

Devil's Advocate
@Background Pony #AB73
 
Also, as far as images made to spread racism and stir up drama what are your thoughts on >>1661835 ? I’m sure if I go on a hunt I can easily find other zebradom images that are openly hateful, but this one is also clearly made to start shit.
 
My opinion:
 
Was made to stir up drama? Yes.
 
Openly hatefull(image itself not author comments/description)? No.
 
Have artistic value? Yes.
 
In my opinion it is not really that bad and is more using “racism” as fetish.
 
Maybe someone could comission/draw simillar image with roles reversed and then we could “test” consistency of staff team.
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