Downvotes / Hiding Survey
Forthwith
I think the number of upvotes a scat image receives will be well controlled simply by its content. You don’t need downvotes to do that.
More generally, I don’t think I have a grasp on the mindset that would create the environments you worry about if downvotes were absent. Are there users that actually count the upvotes, or use that as a significant criteria when searching?
@Joey
Good. Downvotes are necessary to prevent hugboxes and echo chambers.
I think the number of upvotes a scat image receives will be well controlled simply by its content. You don’t need downvotes to do that.
More generally, I don’t think I have a grasp on the mindset that would create the environments you worry about if downvotes were absent. Are there users that actually count the upvotes, or use that as a significant criteria when searching?
Forthwith
@RiskyPony
Maybe. There’s no perfect result in a system that tries to condense all subjective valuations into a single score. As you suggest, “hits my fetish” and “understands lighting” (for example) should be two unrelated axes, but upvotes and downvotes on the work as a whole are incapable of reflecting that. We can only hope that the typical result for an arbitrary slice of the database is that scores point towards more popular works.
Maybe. There’s no perfect result in a system that tries to condense all subjective valuations into a single score. As you suggest, “hits my fetish” and “understands lighting” (for example) should be two unrelated axes, but upvotes and downvotes on the work as a whole are incapable of reflecting that. We can only hope that the typical result for an arbitrary slice of the database is that scores point towards more popular works.
WingbeatPony
Tag horse
@alidan
I’m very impressed. Totally worth the read.
(even though I think the threshold is -50, doesn’t change the point you were making)
@RiskyPony
No sarcasm. I only described that scenario in second person (saying “you”) to make it more relatable. Putting yourself in the mindset of someone who’d do this sort of thing is useful for understanding the scope of the problem.
I’m very impressed. Totally worth the read.
(even though I think the threshold is -50, doesn’t change the point you were making)
@RiskyPony
No sarcasm. I only described that scenario in second person (saying “you”) to make it more relatable. Putting yourself in the mindset of someone who’d do this sort of thing is useful for understanding the scope of the problem.
Background Pony #C45A
@warc9
You’re assuming the motives of users to whom you haven’t spoken, not to mention veering dangerously close to a principle of “if I don’t think the image is bad, downvoting it is abuse”.
You’re assuming the motives of users to whom you haven’t spoken, not to mention veering dangerously close to a principle of “if I don’t think the image is bad, downvoting it is abuse”.
Krickis
Literary siren
@alidan
You’re kind of proving the anti-downvote point here, honestly. You’ve shown that it’s several common themes that get downvoted to oblivion. Almost all of which have tags that can be filtered so that people never see them.
“but if you make content with shit, diapers, or anal you know people wont like it and downvote it. people fucking hate mouthpieces, they hate poorly drawn images, and if you mix any of these together you get even more downvotes.”
Or maybe people could filter shit, diapers, anal, and mouthpieces. I’ll give you that not everything has a tag, but all of those do. If someone downvotes a picture with anal because they dislike anal, that’s literally the problem. The fact that so many things are getting downvoted across the board regardless of individual picture quality (and you yourself acknowledged some of what you saw was high quality from an artistic standpoint, just objectable in terms of content) proves that there’s a flaw in the system.
Downvoting should be done by people who generally like the type of content they’re seeing, but don’t like a particular image for whatever reason. I don’t like adultery so I shouldn’t downvote an image of Cadance cheating on Shining Armor; I can and do filter that so I just don’t see it.
I’m not arguing against the downvote, however. Using the same Cadance adultery example, if someone who does like adultery sees that same image and decides that particular picture just happens to be worth a downvote, then they should be able to. A lot of your examples you specified were of low quality, and I’m not addressing those here at all. But you’re acknowledging that people are downvoting whole image tags en masse (diapers, shit, etc.) which is an abuse of the downvoting system and a violation of site rule #4. I’m not saying people are forming groups to organize this downvoting (I wouldn’t use anything as unified as ‘brigade’ to refer to people just being people and refusing to hide tags), I’m just saying it’s a more legit problem than you’re making it out to be.
As far as a solution, well, people suck so there isn’t one. I’d like to hope that the hide option helps lessen the problem, but honestly? People are just gonna downvote then hide the image instead of passing on the downvote. And I agree with all your endpoints about how to implement the hide feature. So really, all I wanted to say here is that while your method was excellent and your results very interesting, you’ve kinda argued against yourself.
You’re kind of proving the anti-downvote point here, honestly. You’ve shown that it’s several common themes that get downvoted to oblivion. Almost all of which have tags that can be filtered so that people never see them.
“but if you make content with shit, diapers, or anal you know people wont like it and downvote it. people fucking hate mouthpieces, they hate poorly drawn images, and if you mix any of these together you get even more downvotes.”
Or maybe people could filter shit, diapers, anal, and mouthpieces. I’ll give you that not everything has a tag, but all of those do. If someone downvotes a picture with anal because they dislike anal, that’s literally the problem. The fact that so many things are getting downvoted across the board regardless of individual picture quality (and you yourself acknowledged some of what you saw was high quality from an artistic standpoint, just objectable in terms of content) proves that there’s a flaw in the system.
Downvoting should be done by people who generally like the type of content they’re seeing, but don’t like a particular image for whatever reason. I don’t like adultery so I shouldn’t downvote an image of Cadance cheating on Shining Armor; I can and do filter that so I just don’t see it.
I’m not arguing against the downvote, however. Using the same Cadance adultery example, if someone who does like adultery sees that same image and decides that particular picture just happens to be worth a downvote, then they should be able to. A lot of your examples you specified were of low quality, and I’m not addressing those here at all. But you’re acknowledging that people are downvoting whole image tags en masse (diapers, shit, etc.) which is an abuse of the downvoting system and a violation of site rule #4. I’m not saying people are forming groups to organize this downvoting (I wouldn’t use anything as unified as ‘brigade’ to refer to people just being people and refusing to hide tags), I’m just saying it’s a more legit problem than you’re making it out to be.
As far as a solution, well, people suck so there isn’t one. I’d like to hope that the hide option helps lessen the problem, but honestly? People are just gonna downvote then hide the image instead of passing on the downvote. And I agree with all your endpoints about how to implement the hide feature. So really, all I wanted to say here is that while your method was excellent and your results very interesting, you’ve kinda argued against yourself.
Background Pony #C45A
@Krickis
And so we come to some of the fundamental questions of this thread.
Is a person wrong to express their opinion on something if they could have avoided seeing it?
Is it wrong to dislike a work based on its content rather than the means by which that content is presented?
Are only people who enjoy a certain theme qualified to have an opinion on an image containing it?
Personally, my answer to all of the above would be an emphatic no.
And so we come to some of the fundamental questions of this thread.
Is a person wrong to express their opinion on something if they could have avoided seeing it?
Is it wrong to dislike a work based on its content rather than the means by which that content is presented?
Are only people who enjoy a certain theme qualified to have an opinion on an image containing it?
Personally, my answer to all of the above would be an emphatic no.
Durabiznik
I’m heavily against tampering with the current system (aside from the addition of the hide feature), but no, there’s no question about that, let alone a fundamental one. If you dislike a theme strongly enough to downvote any picture you come across that features it, you should hide it instead. While I agree that the theme of a picture can be included in a judgement about its intrinsic “artistic value” or “quality,” there’s no question about what the encouraged behavior is here, so you’re beating a horse that has never been alive to begin with.
@Krickis
And so we come to some of the fundamental questions of this thread.
I’m heavily against tampering with the current system (aside from the addition of the hide feature), but no, there’s no question about that, let alone a fundamental one. If you dislike a theme strongly enough to downvote any picture you come across that features it, you should hide it instead. While I agree that the theme of a picture can be included in a judgement about its intrinsic “artistic value” or “quality,” there’s no question about what the encouraged behavior is here, so you’re beating a horse that has never been alive to begin with.
Jeff556
Bug Enjoyer
What if you guys made it so that email/time verified accounts only could rate or comment?
warc9
Ultimate Fan of Scoots
@Background Pony #65F3
It’s the only logical explanation.
I know for a fact that ‘sonicfied’ images get a lot of downvotes regardless of actual quality.
As for the art on these images, the bottom one doesn’t deserve to have the number of down votes it has.
It’s not really an assumption, sonicfied images tend to get low scores despite quality.
Look at the comments of this one.
And this one has 18 down votes for no real reason.
Granted it’s not the best art in the world, but nothing stands out to this one that seems particularly “bad” to downvote it 18 times.
Again, the art is good, yet the image has negative score.
It’s not the greatest art the fandom has made, I’ll give you that but really, by no means does it deserve a negative score.
This image here has the similar concept as above, “Spike giving Rarity something while looking nervous about it”
Is the this art better than the art above it? I’d say yes, but that is no reason to downvote the art above it.
There was clearly some time and effort put into it, and it clearly isn’t a shit post.
Yet, it has a negative score and the only reason why is that it is an image with the “sonicfied” tag in it.
It’s the only logical explanation.
I know for a fact that ‘sonicfied’ images get a lot of downvotes regardless of actual quality.
As for the art on these images, the bottom one doesn’t deserve to have the number of down votes it has.
It’s not really an assumption, sonicfied images tend to get low scores despite quality.
Look at the comments of this one.
And this one has 18 down votes for no real reason.
Granted it’s not the best art in the world, but nothing stands out to this one that seems particularly “bad” to downvote it 18 times.
Again, the art is good, yet the image has negative score.
It’s not the greatest art the fandom has made, I’ll give you that but really, by no means does it deserve a negative score.
This image here has the similar concept as above, “Spike giving Rarity something while looking nervous about it”
Is the this art better than the art above it? I’d say yes, but that is no reason to downvote the art above it.
There was clearly some time and effort put into it, and it clearly isn’t a shit post.
Yet, it has a negative score and the only reason why is that it is an image with the “sonicfied” tag in it.
WingbeatPony
Tag horse
@BLACKM3SA
The email verification thing sounds like a good idea, honestly. But I do not think the ability to comment should be limited to signed-in users, let alone “verified” ones.
The email verification thing sounds like a good idea, honestly. But I do not think the ability to comment should be limited to signed-in users, let alone “verified” ones.
Ferrotter
Yes. I may have an opinion that you’re a dick and your mother’s a diseased whore who failed as a parent by raising you. But I, too, would be a dick if I expressed that opinion. Not every opinion should be expressed. There’s an old saying, “Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one, and nobody needs to have yours shoved in their face.”
If you are providing requested feedback on a piece of art, expressing your opinion (even if negative) isn’t necessarily being a dick. But even there you can express it politely, rather than writing “this sucks” in feces on the wall nearby. The latter is still dickish. And it’s what a downvote is. If you have an informed, coherent, meaningful negative opinion, write it down. If you don’t feel the need to, your opinion isn’t worth expressing.
(That’s definitely not my actual opinion of you. But hopefully how it made you feel illustrates why negative opinions should (not “I think should;” “should”) be shared more carefully than positive ones.)
To dislike it, no. To vote it down for that, yes. Especially if it’s niche content. Your opinion is less than worthless there. So if it’s negative, keep it to yourself. A pointless compliment isn’t being a dick; an uninformed, irrelevant insult (even if honest) is being a dick.
No, anyone can have an opinion. Most of them are worthless and shouldn’t be shared. But intelligent, honest people can also have meaningful opinions about things they don’t like.
I can’t stand Madonna’s song, “Live to Tell.” I shut off the radio if it comes on. But I also think it’s the best song she ever did; it’s just not to my taste. It’s melodic, her best voice work, the lyrics are intelligent, and it hits with a sharp emotional impact. But I really don’t like how it makes me feel. It’s masterfully done, just at doing something I don’t like. That is an example of an informed, meaningful opinion. You can’t express that with a downvote. Or an upvote for that matter. I can’t say honestly that I like it. But I hate it for reasons that have nothing to do with it, and everything to do with my tastes. If I merely say I dislike it, I’m doing the person who asked my opinion of it a disfavor by implying that the dislike isn’t all in me. It requires a comment if it’s worth expressing at all. I wouldn’t vote on it, but I would answer if asked. In words, meaningfully. But assuming I did say, “Nice song, Madonna,” it doesn’t hurt anyone, so it’s forgivable in a way “Your song sucks!” isn’t.
Which proves you’re a moron. I’m not wrong for expressing my opinion that you’re a moron, right? You just said it’s not wrong for a person to express their opinion, so you agree I’m right to call you a moron, right?
It’s just my honest opinion. What’s wrong with that?
(It’s not my honest opinion that you’re a moron. You are, however, wrong.)
And so we come to some of the fundamental questions of this thread.Is a person wrong to express their opinion on something if they could have avoided seeing it?
Yes. I may have an opinion that you’re a dick and your mother’s a diseased whore who failed as a parent by raising you. But I, too, would be a dick if I expressed that opinion. Not every opinion should be expressed. There’s an old saying, “Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one, and nobody needs to have yours shoved in their face.”
If you are providing requested feedback on a piece of art, expressing your opinion (even if negative) isn’t necessarily being a dick. But even there you can express it politely, rather than writing “this sucks” in feces on the wall nearby. The latter is still dickish. And it’s what a downvote is. If you have an informed, coherent, meaningful negative opinion, write it down. If you don’t feel the need to, your opinion isn’t worth expressing.
(That’s definitely not my actual opinion of you. But hopefully how it made you feel illustrates why negative opinions should (not “I think should;” “should”) be shared more carefully than positive ones.)
Is it wrong to dislike a work based on its content rather than the means by which that content is presented?
To dislike it, no. To vote it down for that, yes. Especially if it’s niche content. Your opinion is less than worthless there. So if it’s negative, keep it to yourself. A pointless compliment isn’t being a dick; an uninformed, irrelevant insult (even if honest) is being a dick.
Are only people who enjoy a certain theme qualified to have an opinion on an image containing it?
No, anyone can have an opinion. Most of them are worthless and shouldn’t be shared. But intelligent, honest people can also have meaningful opinions about things they don’t like.
I can’t stand Madonna’s song, “Live to Tell.” I shut off the radio if it comes on. But I also think it’s the best song she ever did; it’s just not to my taste. It’s melodic, her best voice work, the lyrics are intelligent, and it hits with a sharp emotional impact. But I really don’t like how it makes me feel. It’s masterfully done, just at doing something I don’t like. That is an example of an informed, meaningful opinion. You can’t express that with a downvote. Or an upvote for that matter. I can’t say honestly that I like it. But I hate it for reasons that have nothing to do with it, and everything to do with my tastes. If I merely say I dislike it, I’m doing the person who asked my opinion of it a disfavor by implying that the dislike isn’t all in me. It requires a comment if it’s worth expressing at all. I wouldn’t vote on it, but I would answer if asked. In words, meaningfully. But assuming I did say, “Nice song, Madonna,” it doesn’t hurt anyone, so it’s forgivable in a way “Your song sucks!” isn’t.
Personally, my answer to all of the above would be an emphatic no.
Which proves you’re a moron. I’m not wrong for expressing my opinion that you’re a moron, right? You just said it’s not wrong for a person to express their opinion, so you agree I’m right to call you a moron, right?
It’s just my honest opinion. What’s wrong with that?
(It’s not my honest opinion that you’re a moron. You are, however, wrong.)
Door Belle
Black Ink
@Background Pony #65F3
“Is a person wrong to express their opinion on something if they could have avoided seeing it?
Is it wrong to dislike a work based on its content rather than the means by which that content is presented?
Are only people who enjoy a certain theme qualified to have an opinion on an image containing it?”
You’re welcome to your opinion, but you should read Rule 4. It’s been around for a while.
Derpibooru has tried to be about judgement based on artistic merit, not content, for some time–if not always.
“Is a person wrong to express their opinion on something if they could have avoided seeing it?
Is it wrong to dislike a work based on its content rather than the means by which that content is presented?
Are only people who enjoy a certain theme qualified to have an opinion on an image containing it?”
You’re welcome to your opinion, but you should read Rule 4. It’s been around for a while.
Derpibooru has tried to be about judgement based on artistic merit, not content, for some time–if not always.
Door Belle
Black Ink
I’m starting to think the solution is that pressing downvote pops up a Rule 4 dialogue box that you have to acknowledge every single time.
This is only somewhat a joke. People here do not read it, as has been made clear time and again.
Of course, people still wouldn’t read it much if it popped up every time they tried to downvote something, but it might make downvoting just as obnoxious to everyone else as it is to the mods… :P
This is only somewhat a joke. People here do not read it, as has been made clear time and again.
Of course, people still wouldn’t read it much if it popped up every time they tried to downvote something, but it might make downvoting just as obnoxious to everyone else as it is to the mods… :P
Zergpony
After doing the survey I’m not sure that sum counts should be shown. I’m also wondering why you don’t limit the users on the number of up or down vote to say 10 to 20 an hour.
Door Belle
Black Ink
@Zergpony
“I’m also wondering why you don’t limit the users on the number of up or down vote to say 10 to 20 an hour.”
I find this idea interesting.
“I’m also wondering why you don’t limit the users on the number of up or down vote to say 10 to 20 an hour.”
I find this idea interesting.
Venport
frickin heck
Something I have an immediate problem with about this: I don’t think “hide” options should affect score, or even be tallied (there’s no reason to since it’s about the same as a filter)
and another thing: if downvotes are hidden on the thumbnail page, all other rating options should also be hidden, to make things fair.
and another thing: if downvotes are hidden on the thumbnail page, all other rating options should also be hidden, to make things fair.
shadic1988
I think that the hide image thing is dumb because that’s what blacklisting is for. I also don’t think it’s bad to downvote things. While I find it annoying when it comes to crossovers (Sonic to name a few), there’s nothing bad with it.
Background Pony #75A4
Fine by me.
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