Continuation of the Topic of What Archival Means.

Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
This thread is intended to continue a discussion I was having in the rule#0 thread about the ethics of running a community art archive and as such a lot of the background information is in that thread. The topic in question is what the ethics of creating a representative snapshot of the community are, whether it is ethical to call the site’s current implementation of policy an ‘archive’ and what the ethical obligations of staff are in relation to the site, its advertisement to the outside community and the potential harm caused by not following the ethical guidelines that are necessary to consider the site an archive without doing the aforementioned. I will begin with my response to the moderator in the previous thread, which should allow those who are interested to backlog through clicking my name and their name in our replies the entire history of the conversation to catch up to speed.
 
As such: Here’s where the argument was currently at;
 
Don’t respond to it if you must not, but if you delete this you’re only proving my point.
I feel that OC:Aryanne is representative of this generation of fans, and exceptions should be made for at least her more representative images so they can be a part of the snapshot of this generation of fans.
Read: Aryanne is okay, but only the way Aryanne is that we like is okay. This is not a proper representation of Aryanne in context for the fandom if you’re cherry-picking what she’s allowed to be like. This would be akin to me starting a Twilight Sparkle archive, specifically dedicated to Twilight Sparkle then refusing to allow non-alicorn pictures of Twilight onto it. Yeah, it may be the majority of what we saw of her throughout the series, but it doesn’t represent the depth of that character’s expression. In the same token, if I were to do the opposite, I would be blatantly allowing my bias to color what she is for the community that enjoys her and would lose the right to say my archive has a complete representation of her as a character and especially in context for the community that cares about her.
If I was creating an archive that claims to be making a representative snapshot of a community, then accurately representing that community is necessary. Whitewashing Aryanne but keeping her in the archive is an example of exactly what not to do if you’re trying to preserve the cultural history of the fandom, because it blatantly takes the importance of her character to the fandom out of context and does not properly or adequately record her usage for the purpose of archival.
there’s no requirement or expectation of ‘completeness’.
There is an expectation of completeness or as close as possible in the very definition you gave of an archive. A representative snapshot needs to be, by definition, representative. If you don’t strive for completeness of representation in that snapshot then it’s not an archive, even by your definition.
Why not? We only host images apropos the My Little Pony franchise and the My Little Pony fandom. If images aren’t a part of that community we have no obligation to host it. I can only presume that we’re using ‘community’ in different ways.
We’re not using community in different senses here. This artwork is part of the pony community. This is not off topic, when I say artwork relevant to the community I define that very simply: Pony artwork that is being created and shared within the pony community. Period. Obviously it doesn’t include selfies of Bronies, etc. As such, the archive being exclusive to members of the community who have not caused damage to the archive itself (ala breaking rules that are fair and evenly applied) is what I am referring to, which the archive has done, at least recently but according to you always to types of expression that the staff does not approve of.
But if you define ‘possible’ as ‘what we are reasonably able to manage with our available resources’ including bandwidth, the laws of the land, the wishes of Hasbro, what is permissible within the gaze of the Ever Seeing Eye of LionsGate, and the available resources of our staff, then sure, why not?
This is absolutely my definition of ‘possible’. I’m not unreasonable. The expectation of as close to completeness as possible is one established by the definitions you’ve used to refer to the site over the course of years.
This isn’t about being opposed. This is about you holding us to a standard we never set for ourselves, and which we have no interest in picking up.
You set the standard for yourselves the moment you defined what type of archive you wanted to be to me. You set them higher than that before it by claiming to be an archive without that clarification. That’s the bottom line of the issue.
CHurricane
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Devil's Advocate
I am curious about how the discussion in this thread will evolve so i will subscribe to this thread.  
Sadly i don’t think i will be very active here(at least in the nearby future) because i am pretty busy IRL and most of the time that i can allocate to this site i spend on the Rule 0 thread.
ArmadilloEater

Administrator
French Taunter
I hope more mods than the usual suspects (no offence Neb, I love ya, but yer a nerd) will chime-in on this topic, cause it’s pretty essential: the way staff defines Derpibooru, either as a community site first or an archival site first, changes the way certain content is to be treated.
 
Is staff priority aimed towards fostering a “safe” social media site first and foremost, or is it to curate an art gallery.
 
In the current climate one precludes the other, unfortunately, as the “end of Derpibooru” overblown drama has demonstrated. From what I’ve seen the divide between people who see it one way or another has been a big factor in explaining why things went sideways in such a spectacular fashion, both on the user side, and in the moderator side of things. Though, in the end, it’s the staff’s opinions that matter most here, since they are the ones that are actually steering this boat.
 
And it might be useful for them to make things clear even amongst themselves wtf Derpi even is supposed to be.
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@ArmadilloEater  
And what would you think would be ethically necessary if the staff are to define this away from an archive in both the traditional sense or the community snapshot sense provided to me? What would you say is ethically necessary to maintain the label of Archive, even in the community snapshot sense?
ArmadilloEater

Administrator
French Taunter
@Northern  
What does “ethically necessary” even mean… This is a pony art side my dude, why are you complicating things.
 
I just want mods to either say “Derpibooru is an archival site”, meaning all art that’s not illegal should be protected because that’s what an art gallery does. Or “this is a social media platform first”, in which case heavy policing of content is to be expected, and it would make it clear that fighting against censorial policies is a sterile endeavor, because censoring offensive content is what social media does from its very nature.
 
Oh also here’s a link to my personal opinion on this, cause lazy to write it all again: fimfiction comment
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@ArmadilloEater  
The reason I ask your opinion about the ethics of this situation is twofold: One, I would like to hear what you think would be the right thing to do, which you have gladly supplied – and two: because I want to know if you think that them switching away from an archival site needs to be public and well known information for the broader community as a whole, or if the idea of switching such without a public announcement is in any way ethical to you.
ArmadilloEater

Administrator
French Taunter
@Northern  
Ah, ok now I getcha: I don’t think them switching and not saying is an issue of ethics or anything like that. It’s really more of an issue of clarity, of site identity and direction. It would be cool if users were on the same page as to what Derpibooru is at its core (as you can see in that Fimfic thread there are different view) and even better if mods were on the same page as well, cause I know for a fact that’s not the case.
 
So your thread is a good occasion to lay it down, both for the good of users, and the good of staff.
doloresbridge
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@ArmadilloEater  
My idea is that Derpy both nurse a community and be an archive, and has been doing it already; Behavior controls with limited censorship measures. They have had community regulatory measures and can strengthen certain things (such as user blocking and, as I have talked with a couple of others, better report system UIs) while still being an art archive overall.
 
You are either with X, or you are with Y, and both sides will crucify you for trying to step away from the rampant tribalism. They want you to explain your stance in 280 characters or less, because we’ve lost the art of discourse, in favor of digital torches and pitchforks. Mob mentality has become the norm, and for that we are all lessened.
 
There were a lot of people who felt conflicted that didn’t get the chance to speak up and I feel they were of a significant number. I agree with this part of the comment here and I would like to hear from such nuanced perspectives. You, or anybody else is not wrong for having them (or even being on the opposing team, as long as y’all don’t slander me as an “evil nazi channer”).
deactivateda0841fe

It’s an archive but it’s not the purist definition of an archive and never has been. Very low quality edits, obligatory pony, attack art , bait, and of course abiding to dnp has always (or nearly always for some) been in the rules.
 
However, coming from e621, derpi keeps overwhelmingly way more sketches, beginner art, memes, screencaps, crappy edits, and a lot of other (fandom-related) non-art garbage people feel like uploading. So I personally think it’s still primarily an archive, even when it may or may not meet your own definition of an archive.
 
That being said, this is just splitting hairs and pedantics at this point and doesn’t actually mean much to the site at large.
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@Raptorshy  
Then would you agree that the site has an ethical obligation to adhere to the following statements, considering the given definition of the archive this site is trying to be from the staff was to create a community snapshot at any given time?
 
1) The snapshot must be representative of the entire community.  
2) The snapshot must not be exclusive to members of the community.  
3) The snapshot must include as much information about the community from the time period as possible.  
4) The snapshot must, to the best of the ability of those working on it, not contain falsehoods or inaccurate depictions about aspects of the community.
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@Raptorshy  
Would you care to elaborate as to why not? These statements are the very minimum required to be creating a community snapshot that is accurate to the community. If this isn’t a community snapshot of the pony community, but rather of Derpibooru’s community then the site can’t really be called a pony community archive. If the site is attempting to create a snapshot of the pony community as a whole, then these statements are, as stated, the bare minimum to do so. Which is it?
 
@Background Pony #22BE  
The community is divided and not a monolith, which is exactly why a complete snapshot of the multiplicity of the community is necessary in order to correctly claim that you are an art archival site for the community.
deactivateda0841fe

@Northern  
I’ve already said why. Because it’s never been a perfect snapshot, it’s always been a community-first approach and it should stay that way. I don’t believe it’s ethical or desirable to make the site something it’s not.
evan555alpha
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@Raptorshy  
And the community has almost overwhelming stated that what the staff are currently doing is wrong/unneeded/unwarranted/unnecessary. The site was community first, and then they bent their knee to people not inside of the community, and as we speak they continue to do so, if not because they’re listening to outside influences, then because they are not listening to inside influences; the users of this website.
 
If you don’t believe that it is ethical or desirable to make the site something that it is not, then you would agree that what the staff are currently doing is wrong, would you not?
deactivateda0841fe

@evan555alpha  
They have continued and expanded on the plan I had originally worked out from extensively listening to opinions and arguments on all sides, from all staff, and remained pretty steadfast and upfront about all of this. If they were listening exclusively to outside sources, the site would have been purged of anything even remotely controversial months ago.
Background Pony #D243
@Raptorshy  
Upfront? The most upfront thing that I gleaned from the staff posts has been they will continue to be opaque and shifty, rather than attempt to be upfront, and that’s only through sifting through their posts and actions, so even that is entangled in this mess.
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@ArmadilloEater  
I think you’re the one who’s confused here.
 
Ethics are a simple proposition: the very basic, bare minimum effort required to claim that you are acting in a manner that is not malicious or evil while doing what you are doing is following ethics.
 
Community is also simple: It refers to those of us who enjoy ponies, if this site is to be an archival site for the pony community which is what is proposed here. If it cannot be said to contain (or at the least, welcome for containment) the breadth of the community then it, by definition, cannot be a community archive.
 
Snapshot is also a straightforwardly defined word: As explained by the mod who proposed the definition of the type of archive in the first place, it refers to a slice of the community, capturing the culture and the art created at a given time. Thus, if the snapshot is an intentionally incomplete one through intentional omission of a category within the community, the site cannot be stated to be an archive, even by the definition given.
 
An archive is, and I quote: “a collection of historical documents or records providing information about a place, institution, or group of people”, so if this site desires to label itself as an archive there are inalienable ethical obligations to running such, which I have done my best to lay out in basic form above. All of these terms have simple definition, and I am working with the given staff definition as well. I am decidedly not the one confused about terminology here.
 
 
@Raptorshy  
That is an interesting opinion, however then the site cannot claim to be an archive, as doing so violates a different form of ethical obligation, which is to not mislead potential users as to the purpose of the site. It must be made clear to the outside community that this site is not for everypony if it is not for everypony. That’s basic, basic ethics. Literally the things kindergarten teaches children to do: “Don’t lie about what you are to make people like you, it’s wrong and it only hurts both of you in the long run.”
 
@Raptorshy  
The staff does not need to be listening exclusively to outside voices to be continuing on a course that is wrong. The shadowbanning, the quiet deletions, the refusal to post a banner or outwardly notify the community at large that the site is no longer operating as a neutral archive that is designed for any-and-everyone in the community are all massive violations of the idea of transparency, upfrontness and even common decency. I reject the idea that we are to accept that any of this has been upfront, or for that matter fairly applied.
 
As you’ve offered no rebuttal to my actual reasoning, instead stating the the community snapshot was never complete, therefore the site should be allowed to keep its label as an archive because (???), I will also reject the idea that the ethics need not apply – You haven’t provided any reasoning as to why the ethics as stated are incorrect, merely an argument that the site has never followed them. That doesn’t defeat their usage in defining what is necessary to be a community art archive focused on a snapshot of the community, it merely further reinforces the argument that Derpibooru doesn’t fit the definition of an art archive as those are, as established, the bare minimum requirements to fit the definition given.
 
And once again, I’m not defining this, the statements above are, as I said, just what’s necessary to fulfill the purpose of archiving data on a community in a snapshot form. I’m using the staff’s definition of archive I was given, not my own, and just stating the barest minimum requirements to meet the definition I’ve been given. If the site staff cannot or does not want to live up to those requirements, then they are failing to live up to the label they are currently ascribing to the site.
Northern
Artist -

I refuse to bend
@Raptorshy  
I’m still here to advocate for a position and community that is dear to me. I helped found this community under the ideals that this site has (mostly) stuck to over the years (or at least to my knowledge it did) until recently. I am here to help and to argue the case for doing what The community believes is right and being a place for everyone in this community, regardless of stripe, so long as they don’t directly advocate for violence or personally harass another individual of the community. I am here to remind the staff of the ethical obligations of running a site advertised as an archive, or, failing that, to remind the staff that they have an ethical obligation to distance themselves from that term.
 
I’m here because I care, Raptorshy. I care about this community a whole lot, and not just… the parts of the community I agree with. As much as I disagree with staff’s opinions, I empathize with the difficulty of the position they find themself in too. I’ve seen some of what you’ve said in the past as well, Raptorshy. I know you understand why this is an issue of censorship and authoritarian style abuse. The reason I’m still here is the same reason you did what you did before – it’s the only thing I can do to feel like I’m doing my best to protect people who are being hurt by those in a position of authority.
Background Pony #BFD9
@Raptorshy  
Remember when you were on the anti-censorship side of this conflict? Remember when you became a symbol for a lot of people?
 
How quickly you have gone against that, huh.
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