Concerned Users of Derpibooru

This is a thread devoted to the discussion of and opposition to further censorship on Derpibooru. Think of it as a constituency that allows concerned users to peacefully and civilly discuss censorship. Organize resistance and to try to civilly persuade those who support censorship that it is in their best interest not too. This is not a place to play 20 questions with the mods or ask for official answers on policy as this is not an official thread but a place for users to discuss among ourselves on this issue and how best to move forward.

Before you laugh at the grown men drawing pictures of pretty ponies, remember: first, they came for the bronies. Next, they could come for you. (Russia Today)

I think a civil discussion on this topic is possible and I'd like to purpose the principles that we could organize around.

I believe that a framework needs to be made on the general defense of the fandom's culture and heritage. Though what we are worried about is the formation of a far left framework/ideology taking over and destorying what we know and love; this cannot be countered by a right wing framework as there are a lot of people on all sides who oppose this. Something that I have seen in the past is that when splinters or purges happen on other sites a lot of good meaning people get turned off by the anti censorship crowd going pretty far right wing. This is not to say that I oppose right wing presence or ideas I'm actually pretty right leaning myself but our fandom cultural character would be best defended by what the fandom is . One thing that I have noticed is that there are a lot of people who don't fully fit into the political spectrum here and people who are disenfranchised with everything. This is for them too. It also is for the plenty of left leaners who wouldn't go along with censorship either. Another thing for example: The right, especially the further right, often forgets that we shipped lesbian horses and a lot of LGBT people used this fandom since the very beginning as a shelter and a positive space. The left forgets that 4chan was the birth place of our fandom and that our fandom was and still is pretty edgy and shitpostery, especially by modern social media standards and both forget all of this often coexists and mixes.

TDLR: The fandom culture can't exist in a right wing or left wing framework, so we need to define our defense on the defense of the heart of the fandom itself and embrace mix of influences.

@Derpy Whooves
I don't know whether to laugh at the Russians taking notice of this or be concerned at more negative attention and the attempt to ferment drama for political ends.

That's interesting. I'm eager to see where you go with this.

Personally, I'd prefer to leave politics completely out of it and focus on the core messages of the show, which this site summed up as "be excellent to each other". Once people start talking about left and right things get odd fast, because this is a very international community, but while not everyone agrees with definitions of what is left and what is right, I think most members of the community understand the tree of harmony and its aspects.

So hopefully a path that simply ignores irl politics altogether would be possible. And maybe get back to messages we all share from the show itself.

@doloresbridge
I think you are reading it correctly. Or, at least, I agree with your take on it.

Somehow, this tiny site is now in the heart of an international struggle.

What would the mane6 do?

First they came for the Nazis, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Nazi.
Then they came for the edgelords, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an edgelord.
Then they came for the conservatives, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a conservative.
Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up for me.

This is my stance.

I have always leaned against censorship. My view is that, if people aren't capable of using filters or otherwise avoiding easily avoided things, then it's their own fault if they keep encountering them. This problem most often came up regarding people who slap on the Everything filter and then complain that they can see men touching each other in places.

People are too sensitive to difference and too quick to consider harmful that which can do no harm.

I have no solutions.

@Derpy Whooves
Rainbow to the face.

Not the elements.

They'd just throw Rainbow Dash at everyone.

Good to see a thread we can talk about it. Communism continues to kill, even today as evident in countries where it's still got a foothold (and countries that were under it continue to suffer).

In regards to nazism, its a defeated dead ideology that is considered more or less a joke by everyone, outside of a few diehard skinheads and those drawing edgy stuff because they find it funny or like the outfits/style it had (japan has a whole thing about this as well where people draw characters like that not because of the ideology but because of the style).

In either case, by allowing the free posting of either here encourages dialogue/convos about such topics, and it being out in the public view makes people keep it in view and in mind.

Our whole fandom is built on a crazy mix of stuff like this, stuff that was rejected by the world at whole, and yet somehow this fandom grew and grew and achieved some hilarious and at times insane things. By starting this forced segregation/banning of particular things, it will only fragment the fandom more.

If people are really that turned off by something, the block lists are perfect for that so that they never have to engage/see it, but is is a choice they make for themselves.

Giving in to outside pressure will only invigorate them. Yesterday it was downvoting pictures, today it was Aryanne, and tommorow it will be foalcon.

You may not like any of those, but that's how things go. You give an inch, they take a mile.
They'll see their previous victory as cause to keep pushing and ask for more.

Check the original BLM Twitter post. See those people going like "Ok, but what about X? When are you gonna ban X?"

They'll never be satisfied.



Of course, this line of conversation is moot if the majority of staff who voted on this new rule change are all on board in the first place. To that, I say, you have a lot more to lose than ebil Nazis by censoring content you don't like. People know what a slippery slope this all is, and previous comments of "Don't worry, that'll never happen" being tossed to the wayside show how right everyone was.

Just a few weeks ago, we were told, "Don't like it? filter it". That has always been a response to (you have to admit, really) the overwhelming majority of Aryanne pictures. I'd even go so far as to encourage people to downvote what they don't like, but that is no replacement for filters.

That's what it should be now. There'll always be special cases that can be argued were in very poor taste though, like that one pic of Aryanne and Dylan Roof that was deleted.

Just don't censor free expression. Doesn't matter to me what content it is, right or left or whatever. Censorship is authoritarian by nature. Make people filter themselves. The site has the tools for it, there's no reason for this sort of change.

I'm hoping things don't go further down this road, or ideally reverse course. I'm exhausted from watching this happen to so many sites. Artists are always the biggest victims of censorship, and I'd hate to see an art site of all places fall into the same hole. This community is small enough that I feel as though speaking out like this might actually reach the people in charge, as opposed to something like Twitter or YouTube where the only thing to complain to is a faceless corporation. I hope that maybe, my voice can reach someone here.

If it stays this way or gets worse, I'm probably going to stick to my principles and avoid using this site, as well as convince others to do the same. It's painful to think, as it's been one of my most used sites for years, but I have to protest against this sort of change.

@Archonix
I like that.

Can someone actually answer this question? Why ban Nazism but not foalcon or bestiality?

@810308913
The mods like these things.

@810308913
Foalcon isn't political. I think that's the line being drawn here, and while I may not necessarily agree with the line, I understand it.

@Archonix
I'd be all for if we banned all politics completely here and made the site a politics free zone. Politics is fake and gay.

@Derpy Whooves
Ain't a bad idea at all. My personal preference is for a largely apolitical space. IRL politics in ponies feels weird, but as politics are what is driving this, understanding those forces would play into that. The case I'm trying to make is that the our fandom cannot let a political framework take over. Though I would obviously advise that we limit our discussion on it least we go into random political debate and derail the thread.

Once people start talking about left and right things get odd fast, because this is a very international community, but while not everyone agrees with definitions of what is left and what is right,

Agreed. Though I may still have to bring it up in certain instances.

@Background Pony #2A39
Completely see your point as that is the process that often happens in other places. Though I too would argue there is a lot of gray that makes those particular labels hard to exactly apply in this case.

@tiarawhy

In either case, by allowing the free posting of either here encourages dialogue/convos about such topics, and it being out in the public view makes people keep it in view and in mind.

I don't want to go to far into the political on what you said and break a rule but I will say this: I can see a rational for banning the hardest extremes if they were constantly shitposting or derailing. I've seen in the far coroners of the Internet far right elements can take over in similar ways to extreme leftist (though the particulars are a bit different and it is much rarer) but I do completely agree in that edgy posts do not equal a mindvirus that turns people one way or the other and that the making of such topics taboo often leads to harder discussions on them without actually making things better and such bans should be last resort and apply an equal standard.


@Archonix
That is the ideal of derpibooru and a lot of the fandom to an extent. I think all these filter and ability to organize sub communities (like FiMfictions user groups) allowed a very broad section of people to coexist not only peacefully but also sometimes not even realizing each others presence or significance. Sure, we can regulate behavior, but content needs to be at the absolute liberalist we can be because this is supposed to be an archive, a record of things. The danger is two fold in defending. First: the shifting world outside that has a lot of different factions that in order to have allegiance you can't coexist with others even passively. Second: the risk of media attack, which could be used to great affect on the ability of cashflow and isolation. The first one is easy as it is a battle of ideas, the second one isn't.

@doloresbridge

@Derpy Whooves
The first one is easy as it is a battle of ideas

*Laughs hollowly*

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, but writing off dealing with tribalism and self-righteous posturing as "easy" is badly mistaken. Those are very deep and pervasive flaws in human nature that history shows are astoundingly difficult to stop.

@Candel
I think that if derpibooru does go down that road it'll be hard one for them to go down fully and would take awhile. It'd make more since to partily stay and civily resist while not putting all your eggs in one basket. Certainly there is a point to just leave but I think that it would be useful to stick around as the more pro free speach users the better to make the case for it so that if we have to leave more could follow.

Alright I'm going to bed. Hopefully nothing bad happens while I'm gone.

@Wellwater
Perhaps I shouldn't say "easy" but I think that there is a broad section of people where the case could be made.

@doloresbridge
I've been away for a few days. What did they ban this time?

What a world when Russia Today hosts the voice of reason…

I agree the filter system should be the main line of defense for anyone offended. Leaving the site is the second. Being offended doesn't give anyone the right to censor art for others, not when you can simply block it from your own view.


@Derpy Whooves
Thanks for all the work you and the other mods do. Putting up with all this drama, while running the best designed image archive I've ever used, can't be easy.


@810308913
It's the flavor of the day, the Atlantic's bullshit story on the site is also a big reason.

Could we get an actual official firm stance about foalcon (in one direction or another) ?
Or at least a warning if it's still "in internal discussion" ?
Because the whole process of banning stuff that used to be OK is kinda getting me worried … I would like to avoid starting some new project only to find its category got surprise-banned when publishing it.

@Officer Hotpants
"Promotion of hostile ideologies such as Nazism", but more accurately, all non-negative potrayals of Aryanne and other "nazi" OCs. While dodging the questions and refusing to ban all other hostile ideologies.

@Plumage
Foalcon is going to be banned shortly after some yellow-papers site or pertinent extremist organization starts posting articles equating foalcon with pedophilia (and hence, radicalizing pedophiles and instead of rehabbing and controlling them pushing them deeper into secrecy and grooming…)
Also, there is no firm stance. The staff have betrayed the trust in their stance the moment they went back on their word on how long pro-BLM censorship is going to last and started enacting further censorship in general. Also, is there a bingo grid where I can mark "equating a self-evident statement and extremist organization" down?