Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

Zincy

In Vino Veritas

Watched a clip of an antimask parent screaming at a meeting.

Let me draw you a mental picture of this guy. His hair was so moddled it formed into this clumpy, molted dreads that look much like moss does. He was a big, fat, white guy with an unkempt beard, torn green tee shirt, and the general demeanor of “I beat my wife if the beer is too warm”.

That’s the kind of “parent” that’s trying to do the “best” for their children.

Posted 2 years ago Report

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Ciaran

Senior Moderator

友情は魔法だ

@Zincy
Was that the guy who tried to whistle for a minute then claimed he was making the sound of the wind, then started screaming “heil Fauci” like he was doing a death metal cover?

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doloresbridge

Peace to all

@Ciaran
I didn’t bother to read the debate that got you to ask these questions (I’m too busy on Afghanistan stuff), but I will offer a definition of CRT and my opposition to such.

Critical race theory, at it’s earliest form and narrowest definition, a legal framework/movement born out of frustrations of a preconceived lack of progress post civil rights era of the 1960s that coalesced around several lawyers and civil rights activist in the late 1960s to 1970s. You will see it defined differently but the basic idea is that racism is more subtle, insidious and embedded in the very framework of legal codes and culture within our society over simply attitudes that need to be adjusted. This is where race as a social construct (and other social constructs usually based hidden bias from cultural practices and language) comes into play.

In order to keep this relatively short, I will just use this poster to show why I oppose all of this
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There is a lot of issues one could have with this, namely, linking stuff like rational thinking and strong work ethics explicitly white values and values that themselves need to be rejected. Why was it posted to the National Museum of African American history and culture? They were ridiculed for it and hastily took it down, but it what world would something that could be taken with minimal editing as white supremacist propaganda be posted there? Because that is the world of of being pushed out of our elite institutions increasingly now. If these ideas are all taken to heart, liberal democracy wouldn’t survive.

I, honestly, probably don’t have a problem with all the analysis or observations being made by critical race theory or related/sub-concepts like intersectionality but I have has seen, time and time again, these ideas be introduced and often just destroy and break the foundation of anything they touch, be it a more Derrick Bell pure form or Robin DiAngelo neurotic upper class white edition that I will never use their tools at all to attempt to fix anything or support their use. I only support the basic right to merely existence in a free and hopefully liberal/libertarian (though ideally with some conservative elements) society.

Posted 2 years ago Report

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silbasa

Teaching students about racism and what CRT is, is of course natural for any school. Indoctrinating students into it as the only way to think about something is not something an educator should do.

Wondering what CRT is? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#Criticism wikipedia is as always helpful. Of note here is its relation to Intersectional theory, an offshoot of marxist theory.

Is it being taught or introduced into American schools now across the country? Yes, as indicated in my older post here: @silbasa As most US mainstream media is heavily biased most sites willing to write about it are conservative. Left leaning sites won’t touch the subject or ignore it. Finding neutral sources is difficult.

Why is this bad then? Should students not be taught about racism and its history in the US? They most definitely should.

The problem with CRT is how this is done. People are put into categories based on their skin color, white students are oppressors, black people are victims. Students are taught that most American institutions are fundamentally racist and must be drastically changed. Black students ends up hating their country and white students become resentful closeted racists, providing fertile ground for future white nationalism. When translated into the real world CRT leads to reverse “Jim Crow” arrangements, often initiated by black people themselves. Instead of promoting unity as Americans working together for a better future CRT creates further division and is extremely counter productive for everyone.

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doloresbridge

Peace to all

So now the official line is we didn’t see this coming at all at this level Not even just the intelligence leaks, look at the initial talking points.
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The administration knew there was a distinct possibility that Kabul would fall to the Taliban

It was not an inevitability. It was a possibility

The administration planned for every possibility. We had contingency plans in place for any eventuality–including the quick fall of Kabul. That’s why we had troops pre-positioned in the region to deploy as they have done.

This is not looking good and this situation could easily have some bloodshed whether we like it or not.

It’s all shocking to see

U.S. government-provided flights are departing. U.S. citizens, LPRs, and their spouses and unmarried children (under age 21) should consider travelling to Hamid Karzai International Airport. You should plan to enter the airport at Camp Sullivan. From the HKIA Airport South Traffic Circle, head east for 1km and turn right on to Camp Sullivan. Please note that gates may change frequently and that we will provide updates as necessary.

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CANNOT ENSURE SAFE PASSAGE TO THE HAMID KARZAI INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT.
For updates, follow us on Facebook and Twitter.  Please check your spam folder for messages. 
 For emergencies, call 1-888-407-4747 (U.S. Canada) or +1-202-501-4444 (overseas) or KabulACS@state.gov. 

This really is a fiasco. I understand the military is holding back to not start clashing with the Taliban but it is really a failure that we didn’t secure more then just the airport for a evacuation like this.

Posted 2 years ago Report

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tehwatever

strong work ethics explicitly white values and values that themselves need to be rejected.

may not be white values but I DO reject the idea posed by the image, because they’re imo not exactly compatible with islamic values (from what I learned about Islam anyway)

Hard work islamically speaking is NOT the key to success. Hence, success is not the right of the hardworking person.

Hard work and success in islam are two distinct things, not entirely dependent of each other. If a person’s hard work is beneficial then a grateful society would reward you him for it–but hard work itself doesn’t necessitate success.

That said, Islam encourages that everyone should be given the opportunity to realize their full productive capability. Being able to work at their best in a field suited for them, is a blessing not many ppl experience.

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Background Pony #C178

@Ciaran
I didn’t say they were, but the largest teacher’s union wants to. My point was the people railing against it aren’t just making things up out of thin air

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tehwatever

@doloresbridge

To give an example, the prophet of Islam was a hard worker but he wasn’t a 100-hours a week kind of worker, and discourages the idea of extreme hard work.

Some hadith to highlight this point:

When the prophet heard of someone doing work day and all night with little rest he went to the person and said “Don’t do that! Take a break! Your body has a right over you. Your WIFE has right over you.” (because she’s been neglected due to the person extreme schedule)

Another hadith:

“Do your work properly, sincerely and moderately. Always adopt a middle, moderate and regular course, whereby you will reach your target.”

Lastly:

“The good deeds of any person will not net him paradise”
The Prophet’s companions asked: “Not even you?”
The Prophet replied: “Not even myself, unless God bestows His favor and mercy on me. So be moderate in your deeds and do what is within your ability.”

In context, Muhammad was talking about religious deeds like rituals (‘Ibada) , but it’s widely accepted that, since islam is never Secular, the attitude towards ’Ibada carries over to the attitude towards work and anything you do.

Why? Because if ’Ibada is the most important thing for a muslim to do and moderation is to be expected from it, then secondary things like hard work for material gains should also be moderate if not lenient.

wallahu alam, god knows best

Sorry guys I knoe this aint the religion thread. Mods if you think my post is not relevant pls delete no problem.

Posted 2 years ago Report

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HorsesandMuchMOAR

Gallusposting since 2019

@doloresbridge

Possible opposites, based on leftist media:

community (or human race) as highest unit
cooperation, empathy, and self-sacrifice or self-care rewarded
individuals are only to blame if they contribute to some harmful social system (e.g. capitalism, transphobia, racism) or harm another person, especially an “oppressed” person
any family type will do, but preferrably individuals or communes
always critical thinking, but to promote the “discourse” to push a utopia
based on anyone who is not European Americans, especially Black Americans, Latinos, and Native Americans
primacy of socialism/anarchism/communism/leftism/“revolutionary”/anti-imperialism (more like Western leftism)
atheism is the norm
tolerance of anything that isn’t Evangelical or Catholic Christianity
you have worth just because you exist (unless you are a bigot)
heavy value on uplifting poor and collective ownership
present focused, but with a future goal of a global utopia
plans to abolish wealth after redistribution to poorer people
less focus on competition
anti-tradition
diversity 24/7

Posted 2 years ago Report
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Latecomer

@doloresbridge
Hmm… it’s certainly true that the things listed are aspects of American culture, and most of more general Western culture as well. And given that, they probably do have European origins to various degrees.

What the poster is missing, though, is an “other half”. If these are white values, then what are African, Asian, Indian etc. values that the creator feels might benefit society more?

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Ereiam

Monde de merde

@Latecomer
Also it doesn’t seem to me as if the listing of those values is attaching any particular judgment to them, i.e. they’re not explicitly refered as good or bad things.
It appears those were made to establish a comparison of cultural norms and views relatively to each specific racial group, and an understanding of how those may converge or differ between each other, with the caveat that they’re not necessarily shared by every single member of said group and that deviations may exist depending on the individuals.

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Background Pony #C178

@Latecomer
The problem is twofold, first the tying of race to it is racist to all races, including whites (as if blacks don’t value hard work). Second is even if you ignore the race aspect and focus on culture much of this is shared between cultures around the world.

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AaronMk

Sky funeral

All the discontent, all the ill humor of the petty bourgeois too was directed against these national ateliers, the common target. With real fury they totted up the money the proletarian loafers swallowed up while their own situation was becoming daily more unbearable. A state pension for sham labor, so that’s socialism! they grumbled to themselves. They sought the reason for their misery in the national ateliers, the declamations of the Luxembourg, the processions of the workers through Paris. And no one was more fanatic about the alleged machinations of the communists than the petty bourgeoisie, who hovered hopelessly on the brink of bankruptcy.

Love how nothing changes. Then it was socialism, now it is “CRT”.

When will history learn to disregard the opinions of “Le middle class”

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Ereiam

Monde de merde

@AaronMk
That quote comes from The Class Struggles in France, 1848–1850 by Karl Marx BTW.

I noticed you often forget to mention your sources.

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AaronMk

Sky funeral

@AaronMk
That quote comes from The Class Struggles in France, 1848–1850 by Karl Marx BTW.

I noticed you often forget to mention your sources.

Because I’m based

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Background Pony #C178

@Background Pony #C178
Also, just to add, the way this reads and is blatant I thought it was fake. I’ve seen the pic before but nobody has linked it like he did. It really surprises me that it isn’t made be either some far left identitarian or some far right racist trying to make the left look crazy. For example “bland is best”, The scientific method, and planning for the future is considered white?

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Latecomer

@Ereiam
I’d feel that way if there was contrast, maybe. But it kind of feels like we’re meant to assume the universalisation of the values shown is a problem or someting.

@Background Pony #C178
Since they start off with saying these ideas have entered everyone’s mind, then it can’t be disproven as a white idea even if otber cultures do it I suppose.

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Ereiam

Monde de merde

@Ereiam
I’d feel that way if there was contrast, maybe. But it kind of feels like we’re meant to assume the universalisation of the values shown is a problem or someting.

That’s because doloresbridge only gave us the “white culture” one (which is described as the dominant one). I’d like to see the complete set to get a better idea myself.
While it is sometimes necessary to simplify to get the message across, oversimplification often leads to getting the completely wrong idea (racist beliefs themselves are based on oversimplified assumptions).

Another important thing that ought to be taken in account is that those values only apply to a specific point of time and are led to evolve with the historical and social context (although their nature as a collective construct means said changes are necessarily slow and organic: it takes time and education for a group to acquire and internalize new ones, especially when reactionary attitudes add some inertia to the whole). Thus, comparisons made between the same group at different times of history will also show some differences, which might be even outweight those between different racial groups at the same time.

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Background Pony #C178

@Latecomer
“Since they start off with saying these ideas have entered everyone’s mind, then it can’t be disproven as a white idea even if otber cultures do it I suppose.”

I get what you’re saying, but I would argue they aren’t in everyone’s mind. Of the three examples I gave the first I have occasionally heard as a meme, though most people know it is a meme, the second I have never heard, and the third I have heard only as a racist slight against black people, but only from racists which are a small portion of people. I think this kinda hurts their argument that these ideas have been ingrained in people.

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Latecomer

@Ereiam
Well that’s just it - I wanna know if it is part of a set, or freestanding.

And I think some would say that White culture has defined modern culture - although there are probably some countries who would try to argue otherwise, while others would say that “modernity” is itself a “white” value that devalues tradition.

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HorsesandMuchMOAR

Gallusposting since 2019

@AaronMk

@Ereiam

I’m thinking about this scenario after reading this news article from my country.

If a country becomes socialist, leftist, or Marxist, and it found out that there are so many houses, but very few people who are able to buy them, what measures would its government use to resolve the housing crisis?

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Background Human

CHS, Class of 20XX

@tehwatever
That’s the point. “Hard work = success” only leads to frustration. “I work hard, how come I don’t have X?” And a bunch of frustrated white people leads to dumb shit like January 6.

@AaronMk
Chris Rufo, of the creationist cesspool Discovery Institute, made it his explicit goal to turn “critical race theory” into a right-wing shibboleth, just like “SOSHULIZMS!!1!” before it.

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HorsesandMuchMOAR

Gallusposting since 2019

@Background Human

Chris Rufo should then be hailed as “the father of Critical race theory”! /s

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Dustcan

Dogs

Godfuckingdammitall there’s a crowd of TeamCovid outside my local Children’s Hospital protesting against vaccines. A Children’s Hospital!

My mom is miserable from it right now, my dad hasn’t eaten in 3 days and keeps falling going to the bathroom, I’m the only one in my family vaccinated so I’m the only one who can be around them and take care of them, and these Covidiots are out there saying this is exactly what they want to continue.

Oh and of course one of them was waving a “Don’t Tread On Me” flag. Right.

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tehwatever

@Background Human
Out of all the “white values” that I feel iffy about. ‘Hard Work = Success’ is one I really want gone, because like you said it leads to a lotta frustrations. HOWEVER, wanting success without hard work means you’re prime target for grifters and scammers.

IMO the idea is to make people WANT to work hard because they feel that hard work (at least in moderation) is a reward in and of itself.
In an ideal, non greedy society, a person’s hard work is always reciprocated one way or another, which gives a positive feedback loop that makes the hard working person wants to keep working.

Also.

What he’s doing to CRT is what the media’s done with Islam and Muslim for 20 years post 9/11.
I feel ya, CRT. Where CRT at? I wanna give him a hug because it really do suck when ppl hear about the thing you’re a fan of and everybody associate it with every evil unpoupular shit under the bus, including the evil kitchen sink.

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