Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

silbasa
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
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@Violet Rose in The Rain
The examples you list here are societies that have already completely or partially broken down. In the place of a government able to uphold law and order comes warlords and militias. Somalia tier. Without police you lose the rule of law, the justice system and general safety overall. No human system is perfect but police, sometimes imperfect and faulty, are a hundred times better than the alternatives.
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Violet Rose in The Rain
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

@silbasa

Policing is a pretty new institution — really only goes back a few hundred years. Before that? If someone was robbed, the community would figure out who they thought did it and go have a chat with that person — or a "chat" with them. This wasn't a perfect system for obvious reasons. Often times everyone was pretty sure the guy who did the robbing was the one who coincidentally had the wrong skin color, had weird opinions, or was generally just disliked. Want a good example of how that goes wrong? See the Salem Witch Trials. But that relied on people living, working, and experiencing life in a pretty small geographic region.

So we had to come up with a new method. For a while, the solution was to have one guy who was in charge of things — one example was a Shire Reeve, who would be in charge of a whole bunch of crap — but keeping the peace of one of them. And he'd have a few guys he could pay to go fix problems. Usually violently. So neighborhoods would police themselves for the most part — most people lived around the same general districts after all — and if anyone got too out of line, the Shire Reeve (or whoever, I'm using Shire Reeve as an example since it was the one that literally evolved into the word Sheriff) would send his guys and hit people until the problem went away.

That eventually evolved into our current system. Now, people are calling for a new step forward. The truth is, as with any path forward, we don't really know what is going to work and what isn't. Right now, the simple truth is that we don't have any way to stop a violent bad actor without violence. It's unlikely we'll ever live in a world where everyone agrees on the rules and agrees to follow them. Some people will break the rules. They'll steal a pack of gum on a dare, drink and drive when they shouldn't, murder 26 people with a machete while reciting the lyrics to Postal Service songs.

You probably saw that list of rules broken and said "those aren't all the same thing!" and you're right. Most solutions to policing sort of rely on exactly that instinct. Petty theft as a youthful lark isn't the same as homicide. It's not the same as property destruction. It's not the same as civil dispute gotten out of hand.

The most popular "alternative" to policing isn't really an alternative to use of violence. Just like how history always had someone with a stick there to make sure people followed the rules, we're going to need someone with a stick. The trick is to make sure the stick isn't used in the wrong situation. The best solution I've seen, is simply to make sure that the people taking care of the different rule breakers aren't the same person, with the same hat, and with the same set of training. Instead of having "THE POLICE", we have different groups trained to deal with different crimes. The guy dealing with petty youth crime probably doesn't need firearms training — but he does need a lot of understanding of youth psychology and to be able to navigate unhealthy family dynamics. The gal dealing with murderers probably does need firearms training — in addition to forensic knowledge, some criminal psych, and crime scene protocols. The guy stopping people for speeding probably doesn't need a gun either. But he should have a very good understanding of his community. But when you have the guy who has to be prepared to deal with murderers writing traffic tickets, you end up with a cop thinking that anybody could be a murderer, and walking up to your car with his hand on his pistol, ready to put 7 bullets into the back of your head if you spook him.

While we're at it, we can also start putting more money into methods of nonlethally taking down the people who do need to be taken down. And we can put more money and resources into finding out what causes people to break societies rules — and how to get them better able to function within society. Rehabilitation.

In addition, we probably need to rebuild it from the ground up — or as close as we can. Being a police has a lot of baggage. From the way we enforce laws and investigate crimes, to the way we see police and the institution as a whole, to the relationship we have with them and the relationship between the police and the court system. It's not enough to simply put a nicer face on police if they are still over-policing inner cities which are coincidentally predominantly minority through entirely coincidence and nothing else. Hopefully, if we start from the ground up, we can leave behind a majority of that baggage and the forces, culture and systems that lead to our current issues.

The result, hopefully, is that we reduce the fatalities and injuries. We ensure that people get the right kind of help they need, not just a guy with a blue suit and a gun every time. Send the right people with the right tools to the correct problems. After all, you know the saying — If the only tool you have is a standard police issue glock 22, then every problem looks like a black man reaching for a concealed firearm.
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silbasa
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Violet Rose in The Rain
You are in essence describing a modern police department here. Officers have many different roles and different training. And I agree of course non lethal takedowns are always preferable. And remember most of the western world is not downtown LA. This even applies to most of America. There are problem areas we can focus on, but it needs to be a multi pronged approach. Education, jobs, eliminating poverty etc. From both the government and the communities this is applicable to.
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Background Pony #5A29
@Violet Rose in The Rain
All of this is well and good, and I don't think police would have a problem with additional help. While some of these ideas are worth discussing usibg the label ACAB doesn't do any good because you're burning bridges with people who do side with cops and might agree with some of your reforms.
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Latecomer

@Violet Rose in The Rain
There's certainly the grounds for something revolutionary and innovative here, but it doesn't fit with ACAB and Defund. You need something new — an image of a prism splitting light, for instance. Or maybe something involving sporks.
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Violet Rose in The Rain
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

@silbasa
Officers have many different roles and different training.

Maybe consider the from the record of violent incidents I linked in a previous post that their "training" amounts to extreme and lethal takedowns of most situations calling for de-escalation.

But if you want to ignore that and double down on your baseless claims of "many different roles and training", feel free to do so.

@Background Pony #5A29
usibg the label ACAB doesn't do any good because you're burning bridges with people who do side with cops
Maybe you haven't noticed by now, but I'm not the type of person to "reach across the aisle" and those who use the slogan aren't going to be interested in recruiting pro-cop people to our cause.
Background Pony #5A29
@Violet Rose in The Rain
I assume you and those who agree with you want change, you want a police force that enforces laws as they were written and in a just way. If you want that result the best way to do it is to work together with the large group of people who also want police reform and those that would be receptive to reform, instead of screaming that all police officers are bastards and that the police themselves are racists and have been established due to racist motives. Not only is that historically wrong, but it turns what would have been allies into enemies.
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Violet Rose in The Rain
Not a Llama - Happy April Fools Day!

@Background Pony #5A29

"You libruls calling me racist and sexist is why I voted for Trump to own you libruls by proving you right!"

I've seen this type of victim-blaming before. If you think you can shame me or prove that you have an intelligence surpassing that of Tucker Carlson, you've failed on both fronts.

Not only is that historically wrong,


Go stare at the 14th Amendment and read it until it clicks, then go back and realise that America has the highest incarceration rate of the Western world and have private prisons. And the disproportionate percentage of minority race members incarcerated also.

The slave patrols exist.
Background Pony #5A29
@Violet Rose in The Rain
This is the problem, right here. You assume that because I don't agree with you I must be some far right Trump supporting idiot. That's ignorant and on par with me calling everyone who posts here supporting anything close to the left a communist. I didn't vote Trump, I'm not a republican, and most importantly, we agree that policing in the US needs to be fixed.

We should be on the same side, but because I point out that the history of police in the US was brought from Europe and is not rooted in race, but instead a historical evolution, that means I must deny all racism throughout it's history. Let me tell you again, I want police reform, I want prison reform, but your attitude drives people like me who would otherwise work with you away.
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silbasa
My Little Pony - 1992 Edition
Wallet After Summer Sale -

@Violet Rose in The Rain
You presented a long list going back to the 1700s or so of why America is bad, listing everything from incidents in wars to arrests gone bad. Just facts listed without any other context than to make America look bad. One can do the same for any nation and achieve the same result. And when compared to other nations America is not imo as bad as you make it out to be.

I don't think I am ignoring anything when I say there are different cops doing different things. In US and other countries police departments there are many different roles. Detectives in different squads, SWAT teams, community outreach officers, sergeants leading the departments etc. I do agree with you that the US could use more non-lethal takedown measures, but we must also remember America is the land of guns, for better or worse. That makes things more lethal there than here in Europe for instance. In America the guy very often has a gun.
Background Pony #5A29
@Latecomer
Thay works only if you believe American policing didn't exist pre 1776. I think that is being historically dishonest and just trying to play with words to make an argument. Enforcing the slave industry was a part of policing during that time, yes, due to the laws of country. However arguing that the police in the US has their origins in enforcing policing is incorrect. The origins of policing in the US predate the US and slavery was later incorporated into their roles as enforcers.
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CottonTales
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Ruler of Sheep
@Violet Rose in The Rain
Maybe you haven't noticed by now, but I'm not the type of person to "reach across the aisle" and those who use the slogan aren't going to be interested in recruiting pro-cop people to our cause.

Yes but sometimes you have to compromise or get little to nothing for your efforts. The people who use the slogan are actually an extremely small number of people when it comes to making a change like this and if they're not willing or you don't have people with power willing and you're not willing to either A) do more for a revolution or B) think more about people on the other side of the aisle (or more accurately on the same side but not as much) you're not going to get much done.

A pretty low amount want to fully abolish the police and a lower amount actually like the ACAB slogan as it is pretty standoffish but a high amount think the police system needs major overhaul including reallocating their work to other sectors and police themselves need far more accountability and transparency.

Basically looking at the numbers, which don't tell everything but can tell odds at least, it seems like some are sabotaging both groups ability to get as much done by just going all in.
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Background Pony #5A29
@Latecomer
You had policing in Britain before 1776 though, and that tradition carried over to the United States. The police continued to evolve and work that slave enforcement into it, and has continued to evolve as slavery was abolished. I want it to keep evolving as we reform the police into the future. I know you say we are talking about modern policing, and your're right, but I was addressing the earlier point of the origins of policing, which is incorrect.
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Background Pony #5A29
@Latecomer
What I do know is that the origins of American policing came from Europe, specifically the English. I know that police in the US continued to evolve from their, influenced by the British even after they seperated, and in the US enforcing slavery as an institution was a part of that.
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Ebalosus
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Can’t stop the signal
@MagpulPony

…says every Muslim, gun owner, and gun owning Muslim ever. While I agree that "not every 'x' is bad," my problem is that argument is inconsistently applied. "Not all cops are bad, but every gun owner is responsible for Brenton Tarrant" for example.
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MagpulPony
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Orange is good.
@Latecomer
Of course. I don’t support BLM, but on an individual basis, I don’t think every BLM activist is bad. Not at all. And I don’t see all these massive systemic flaws you’re mentioning.
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