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Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

Generals » Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General) Search Posts
Started by Archonix
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Vivace
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“ShimSham my GlimGlams”
@Background Pony #4146  
As likely as you are to doubt it and call my bluff, I maintain that that was hyperbole. The only thing I’d actually try to kill is an insect. I don’t even applaud the guy who mailed ricin to Trump, nor would I earnestly do so if his plan succeeded.
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Background Pony #4146
@Vivace  
And what do you have to say to Vit about endorsing terrorist massacres? Getting pretty sick of you guys’ “hyperbole” when it’s completely indistinguishable from terroristic threats. Especially since it’s coupled with real world murders that don’t seem to make you think twice about your choice to use “hyperbolic” language.
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Latecomer

@Background Pony #4146  
OK first off, I don’t see endorsement there, just description. Second, I don’t know what case he’s talking about - if you think you do, perhaps you could say so? And third… I don’t really have a third, beyond “what is bloody wrong with America?” (Besides guns.)
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Background Pony #4146
@MagpulPony  
I think he is, even after we posted the police report with security footage showing him ambushing them from behind with his gun out.  
This is beyond fucked up, and allowing leftists to cheer political executions should not be tolerated.
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Background Pony #A2C2
@Latecomer  
That presumes much of how other countries and the peoples thereof think, specifically that they would think in line with you or whatever individual/group is involved in the orchestration of such an endeavor. That presents potentially plenty reason that it wouldn’t work. Not all peoples think the same or have the same priorities, after all, else we wouldn’t have so many forms and ideas of governance as we do, and such conflicts such as we currently and have historically suffered.
 
The issue here is what you would do when another culture comes along that is stronger and promotes a more racial or cultural supremacist view than the one you’ve endeavored to promote. Considering some of your prior ideas I doubt much could be done by the people of your preferred culture to defend themselves from their more radical opposition when it inevitably escalates to outright violence. That isn’t to say I believe people should be rounded up and shot, but the capacity to defend one’s self, family and property from potential threats goes miles towards fostering such a culture as you seem wont to.  
You did, after all, reference Caucasian Americans, and America is, as I recall, a place which boasts firearms policy you disagree with.
 
I also do not think a country should bend over backwards to reject them so long as they haven’t shown themselves to be violent. Freedom of thought is another direly important natural right.
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Latecomer

@Background Pony #A2C2  
Of course, people have all sorts of different ideas and ways of living. That’s not something necessarily linked to race or ethnicity, though - look at how worked up people can get over political parties.
 
And it really depends on the nature of said threat, doesn’t it? If it’s external, then that’s what countries have armies for - if internal, ditto with law enforcement.
 
And they can think what they want, but public spaces should not be divided by race.
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Vivace
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“ShimSham my GlimGlams”
@Background Pony #4146  
This? That’s not an endorsement. It’s not calling the triple murder right nor calling for further killings, though Vit does seem unsympathetic, or their sympathies are suppressed or some other term. What Vit said wasn’t that it was right (it wasn’t, and the guilty do belong in custody), but that killings like this aren’t exactly surprising in the context of current events. If there were a suitable target (and this is also not an endorsement, just a hypothetical), the three victims wouldn’t be it.
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Background Pony #A2C2
@Latecomer  
Hence cultural differences, and disagreements, matter, and why I think the idea of attempting to combat tribalism is as foolish an endeavor as every attempt at governing a nation of any appreciable size with a strict form of communism.
 
Explain what constitutes a threat, and in particular how law enforcement would deal with a person that holds radical ideals, spreads them to others but is not violent, prone to violence nor promotes it. Mind that a racial supremacist view is not inherently a violent one nor one which inherently promotes violence; this is not to say such a view is not morally objectionable or that I do not myself find such a view to be thus, merely a statement of fact as I see it, and nor is it a defense for perpetrators or promoters of violent action based upon such beliefs.
 
Neither do I think they should be, but that’s beside the point.
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Background Pony #4146
@Vivace  
He followed up by endorsing another political execution to the point of complaining about the murderer being punished for it, so I’m gonna go ahead and call that an overly charitable reading of his vile comment.
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@vit  
«These terrible killings are starting to happen because the police won’t stop killing»
 
If a criminal runs from the police they don’t really have a choice, what part of «stop or I’ll shoot» don’t these idiots get?
 
«and because the last straw was when they punished a self defense against a white far right militant because he was one of their buddies. »  
kyle did nothing wrong if that’s what you’re implying.
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Latecomer

@Background Pony #A2C2  
Yes, but what you don’t seem to grasp is that humans are quite capable of finding plenty of things to disagree about even if all of the same race. Free countries are not about supressing disagreement, but rather preventing it going too far.
 
A racial supremacist view can be argued to inherently promote violence, as it devalues the lives and rights of the races marked as “inferior” or “unwanted”. Therefore, I would not consider tolerating it appropriate or necessary. The principle of equal rights for citizens of all races should be held sacrosanct.
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Vivace
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).
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@Background Pony #4146  
You’ll have to show me where he endorsed another execution. If he complained about this killer getting punished, he’s more upset that the notion of both scenarios having different outcomes despite the equivalent transgressions. Each deserves the same retribution.
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Ebalosus
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@vit
 
Still butthurt about Rittenhouse eh? I’ve yet to see any evidence of his supposed white supremacy, and his only crimes seem to be being in the wrong place for the wrong reasons and being a cop lover; maybe gunning down that «Cuties fan» as well, but we’ll have to wait until the end of the week to see how that shakes out.
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Background Pony #A2C2
@Latecomer  
That’s the very reason I think what you propose isn’t going to work as you seemingly have planned. What is wrong, however, or at least what seems to be now to me, is my working under the presumption you were proposing some form of world governance or alterations to the government of the United States; in the case of an independent nation, presuming it were your own and those that people it are there of their own volition, myself being an isolationist, I wouldn’t care how you managed things.
 
If it must be argued to be so then it is not incontrovertibly inherent. The principle of equal rights applied equally to all citizens of all races is not threatened by the mere existence of ideological opposition otherwise I doubt it would have lasted as long as it has or been instated in the first place insofar as the United States is concerned. There are, after all, racial supremacist groups in this nation who are afforded the same rights and protections as others so long as they abide by the law.
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Background Pony #4146
@Ebalosus  
It wasn’t even about Kyle. It was about that asshole in Portland who ambush-murdered a Trump supporter on video. Which Vit has the nerve to claim was “self-defense”, even though we’ve posted the footage here.  
But yeah, we can’t forget he called Kyle a “white supremacist terrorist”, while endorsing this massacre of people at a coffee shop as being perfectly natural.
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Latecomer

@Background Pony #A2C2  
I do wish for alterations in the government of the United States (starting on election day with more to follow). However, I don’t see how promoting racial integration is not in line with the country’s self-stated principles.
 
And I do not think those groups should be tolerated fully. Perhaps allowing them some platform is a necessity to avoid compromising discourse too far, but it should be tightly controlled, and for adults only.
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GasMaskGuy98

British Space Nazi
@Latecomer  
The blatant form is no more the only kind of racism than a drink is only bad for you if it is mostly poison, instead of only having a few drops in.  
Never said it wasn’t.
 
Even people like you or I who think ourselves colour-blind likely have some subconcious biases  
I know what implicit bias is, dude. But…
 
  1. Implicit biases are pervasive. Everyone possesses them, even people with avowed commitments to impartiality such as judges.  
  2. Implicit and explicit biases are related but distinct mental constructs. They are not mutually exclusive and may even reinforce each other.  
  3. The implicit associations we hold do not necessarily align with our declared beliefs or even reflect stances we would explicitly endorse.  
  4. We generally tend to hold implicit biases that favor our own ingroup, though research has shown that we can still hold implicit biases against our ingroup.  
  5. Implicit biases are malleable. Our brains are incredibly complex, and the implicit associations that we have formed can be gradually unlearned through a variety of debiasing techniques.
     
    Would you say this is their original country’s fault? Or our own?  
    The original country’s, no doubt.
     
    A potential solution to this is to acknowledge that the current generation did not do wrong, but their state did. In this sense, political leaders, as representatives of the culpable entity, should apologise on behalf of the state and its citizens for the state’s misdeeds. This only works when it was the state that committed the violations, rather than settlers or organisations acting independently of the state. It also assumes that the same state that perpetrated the crimes remains intact today. A problematic example here is Turkey being asked to apologise for the Armenian genocide when the event occurred before the establishment of Turkey as a republic in 1923.
     
    Modern western culture carries a lot less of that particular rot — but would you eat food that was just a bit mouldy if you could help it?  
    The problem I have is that people often ascribe racism to a situation that doesn’t necessarily involve race. Again, you must have substantial evidence to support such a claim. Otherwise, all you’re doing is perpetuating racism by making it about race. It cannot be the default.
     
    When a white officer fatally shoots a white person, that’s racism in their eyes. That white officer hates white people. That white officer isn’t doing it because he’s a psychopath, instead he’s doing it just because he hates white people. How does that make sense to you?
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Latecomer

@MagpulPony  
Yeah, me and A2C2 have been disagreeing over it.
 
 
@GasMaskGuy98  
Yes, I get all that. And what I want is basically societal debiasing.
 
The original country’s, no doubt.
 
You’ll have to explain this one to me.
 
And yes, national responsibility is a tricky one - although in the case of the USA, we thankfully have full continuity going back to at least the late 18th century. But besides an apology, shouldn’t a state also do what it can to rectify the problem? Especially when said problem affects not foreigners, but it’s own citizens.
 
Why must racism (which can be so subtle even the person acting on it might not realise) be proven in detail, instead of by looking at patterns? Of course a particular charge (like for a hate crime) is different.
 
And a white cop shooting a white suspect out of anti-white rasim seems unlikely, but not impossible. However, whites are not stereotyped as dangerous and criminal sorts in many places.
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Latecomer

@MagpulPony  
It’s at least been trying, yes. A2C2 was saying it would just lead to conflict and single-race states were a better idea.
 
And when a person or state has engaged in horrible activities, isn’t an apology literally the least they can do?
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