Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

@Latecomer  
Because fuck you, I got mine.

@Latecomer  
You should learn from any past failures, I don’t know what you are referring to with “unleashed capitalism” but considering the most succesfull countries in the world are capitalist with their own regulations and policies set we can look at what works and doesn’t work.

@Background Pony #A63C  
Re: failures of capitalism
 
Has anyone ever directed you to this particular page? A fascinating read.

And as for the failures that affect you, well, someone else put it better than me  

@Background Pony #A63C  
Successful for who?

@Lord Hypno  
Recycling has no impact on global warming. Investing on items that lasts instead of a new iPhone or tablet every year because «I like my phone but it is not compatible 5G»«damn the battery now lasts one hour»«oh naw the new Windows 53 is out I am not safe I must buy a new one like they said on TV» and import tons of shit from China is not a good logic. Local production will help fix things, and especially in durability.
 
Also yes, it is well known here and I see it every morning, when the trash trucks collects garbage, they pick both waste and recycled and put it on the same truck, it’s been remarked, because there is not treatment center. It is in fact cheaper and less CO2 to transport tons and tons of waste to a recycling center to bury it on a mining. This is very retarded and hypocritical and even ecologists like Dominique Voynet stated that companies like Veolia can do this to be cheaper !
 
Globalism is the main cause cause of pollution and a nonsense, if also we can use the spook of climate change alarmism to be less dependent on oil and foreign resources this is a good thing. Also instead of crippling landscapes with windmills, invest in nuclear energy.
 

 
@Ebalosus
 
First you gotta know that’s not just since 1947 shit happened, it always have been a region of conflicts.  
To make simple, Palestine is a land that before the caliphate of arabs was essentially hebraic, and a multitude of populations, just like Lebanon or Jordan. Then you had the crusades, which limited a lot of massacres of the populations by the arabs, the Ottoman empire and Egypt conquering it again.
 
For centuries the jews, and christians too, let’s not forget, kept defending their territory because there is a principle of sovereignty, the same Americans had when they won their independence, or forged countries like France or all of Europe, when you have a population that fight for their right to be a sovereign, they can build a state and defend it. This includes the palestinians, who have always been on this land, but always been the vassals of foreign nations. (The ottoman empire, Egypt, etc.)
 
I’m not that kind of nationalist who will say a nation must be uniform in all things, a nation is essentially peoples, not necessarily all the same ethnicity or idea or whatever. But when you have a country and a people, instead of fighting, build it together. Imagine if Iran decides to one day attack Israel and throw bombs at them, do you think they will make the distingo between Israeli and Palestinians? Nope.
 
Palestinians have all the reasons to be part of Israel and build it together, that’s the same thing with by example, France. Do you think the people of Bourgogne and Franche Comté, Corse or Bretagne would have sided with Germany to be independent again? Fuck nope, we fight together! But I’m still a comtois, a breton will still be a breton and a corse will still feel he belongs to his territory, that’s the idea.
 
Every people who feel like belonging together and fight for their nation can have the right to decide and get their borders and defend themselves. The religion isn’t even an excuse, only a mean to divide, and that is exactly what happens in Israel, you have jewish-zionists who cannot stand arabs ( well with the terror attacks it’s understandable ) and arabo-palestinians who still declare the jews are invading, ignoring that historically, he’s the invader. Neither have any interest of being at war perpetually for some invisible sky magician.
 

 
 
@Background Pony #13FD  
Maybe because 70% (official, Ministère de l’intérieur en 2018) up to 80% (CRIF, LDJ and others) of antisemitic acts today in France are perpetrated by muslim people. I think that’s a factor.
 
I might be wrong again, I must be islamophobe to even know this.  
Same thing could be said on homopbobic attacks, in many cities like Marseille, Paris or Besancon you have crews of guys looking to do nothing but smash gays when there’s not cops around the entrance of a club.
 
THIS is not the definition of freedom, it’s fascism.
 
@byte[]  
haha, nice meme bruh.  

shitpost, capitalism related  

@Patachu  
Did you read the article I linked? It even directly counters this criticism:  

@Latecomer  
succesful for the cultures who have and are using it. The rich countries with high standards of living have embraced it, it has risen untold numbers of people out of poverty and improved lives. Trying to tie a “death toll” to an economic system like capitalism as byte just did is ignorant at best, dishonest at worst. For example, he is blaming capitalism for poverty? When you consider pre capitalist society and its overwelming poverty that’s a completely silly claim. That can apply to claims of exploitation, claims of imperialism, it is ridiculous.

@Background Pony #A63C  

I am in a “rich country” with a “high standard of living.” I live on a university campus and go to class every day. I can’t afford to go see the fucking doctor for a heart problem. Sounds like a great system where people dodge preventative care because it’s too expensive, isn’t it?
 

Only because of centuries of progressive reforms that capitalists did not want. Have you read a history textbook lately?  

 

 
I’m not saying poverty is caused by capitalism. I’m saying capitalism causes poverty.
 

You do realize that when I look at e.g. feudalism what I see is just a microcosm of modern capitalism?

@Background Pony #A63C
 
It’s also put billions into poverty and kills 100 million every 5 years from starvation, lack of clean water, and preventable disease. Capitalism served its purpose in replacing feudalism. It’s a stepping stone towards a better future, not the end goal.

@Background Pony #A63C  
This. Capitalism or free market is the very reason why this site exists to begin with. Industrial revolution, technological progress, freedom of speech, freedom of expression.
 
 
@byte[]  
I can make also the same kind of stats with people who died of eating meat or drinking water. Look at all the people water have killed!
 
You are not on a critical analysis, not a pragmatic approach, only search an opinion and articles that suits your views.
 
Without capitalism or I’d rather say, economy as we know, i recall you that medicine or science, also, would not be what it is today. Governments would rather spend a bit on research but balanced with other budgets, and if a project is too expensive? Let’s give up. Why sending people into space? Why developing particle accelerators? Why spending efforts on searching new vaccines or improving life… Let’s keep with the basic needs!
 
Free economy allows people to do what they want. Some join the army, become cops, some become artists, workers, programmers or doctors. And it works pretty well so far.
 
@Violet Rose in The Rain  
The zetetic minute~  
can you support this claim with verifiable facts that capitalism causes these deaths, and instead not the absence of economy at all, of any form.

@byte[]  
So you redefine capitalism to fit your own narrative to blame capitalism? Feudalism? Oh that’s just capitalism. Failed communist states? Were those “state CAPITALIST” societies? Man, those capitalistic mongolians were animals who pillaged through western asia.
 
Your living on a university campus getting an education while people in pre capitalistic societies would be either incredibly lucky to be in that position, or a member of the church. If you want to look at how we could better society, sure go ahead, but don’t lie to yourself and think capitalism has been a failure throughout time.

@Patachu  

 
@Background Pony #A63C  

Whataboutism.

@Background Pony #A63C  
Of course it hasn’t always failed. But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t stand for a great deal of improvement. Unleashed, wild capitalism is not it’s best form, any more than a wolf is the perfect pet.

@Background Pony #A63C  
If you want to do the “the form of your argument is invalid” thing, then you had better define what capitalism is and which countries can be meaningfully critiqued under its definition. I haven’t offered an opinion on communism yet in this thread. Spoiler: I don’t think Marx’s society has really stood the test of time.
 
I don’t argue that technology has happened that has improved lives. I take issue with the idea that it is capitalism that was responsible, or necessary, for that technology. I also don’t argue that my position is as bad as or worse than those who came before me. That doesn’t mean I have not been deprived of basic needs before. It doesn’t mean I am not being relentlessly exploited.

@Violet Rose in The Rain  
‘s not sourced. just opinion from literally an antifa site.
 
 
@Latecomer  
maybe because you don’t know how to use it. Capitalism is not a forced system. If you want to trade or work and keep money to buy more things and make profits, it’s your right, you are doing capitalism. it’s as dumb as that.
 
 
@Background Pony #A63C  
Nah it’s not enough for them, they want to be pissed at the system. They need scapegoats for all things going wrong in the world : «capitalism!~ I read Marx I’m suddenly so smort! »
 
 
Apropos nothing,

@Violet Rose in The Rain  
Again, this is completely dishonest propaganda. Whoever made this went to poverty.com, an unaffiliated source whose only goal is to show that pverty is still an issue and people are dying, then grabbed some numbers and just said “Welp, this is capitalism’s fault because it exists.”
 
 
@Latecomer  
you keep saying unleashed capitalism, but that’s a vague term. If you mean a nation with no regulations whatsoever then very few people would support a system like that. We don’t have that though, never have, and people aren’t advocating for that.

@Background Pony #C50D  
How about a better analog, then - nuclear power. Probably the bast, most efficient engine for powering society, and the one we should probably adopt more widely. But at the same time, fuelled by and producing as byproducts essences utterly inimical to human life and wellbeing, so kept sealed behind layers of shielding and multiple failures that only a malicious idiot would suggest loosening.
 
It is that state - powering society without being given any freedom to do harm - that I desire for capitalism. As it is, though, the current situation in America is more like giving each town it’s own unshielded reactor, such that birth defects become seen as normal and cancer just another part of the life cycle. (Oh, and dumping the equally unshileded waste all over the world.)

@Background Pony #E420  
private markets, free trade, private ownership of the means of production, a societal respect for private property.
 
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2013/06/01/towards-the-end-of-poverty
 
That is a lot of ifs. But making those things happen is not as difficult as cynics profess. The world now knows how to reduce poverty. A lot of targeted policies—basic social safety nets and cash-transfer schemes, such as Brazil’s Bolsa Família—help. So does binning policies like fuel subsidies to Indonesia’s middle class and China’s hukou household-registration system (see article) that boost inequality. But the biggest poverty-reduction measure of all is liberalising markets to let poor people get richer. That means freeing trade between countries (Africa is still cruelly punished by tariffs) and within them (China’s real great leap forward occurred because it allowed private business to grow). Both India and Africa are crowded with monopolies and restrictive practices.
 
Many Westerners have reacted to recession by seeking to constrain markets and roll globalisation back in their own countries, and they want to export these ideas to the developing world, too. It does not need such advice. It is doing quite nicely, largely thanks to the same economic principles that helped the developed world grow rich and could pull the poorest of the poor out of destitution.
 
 
@Latecomer  
Let’s toss analogies out the window. Almost every person agrees that some sort of regulations need to exist. The real argument comes down to where in that spectrum do you lie? Claiming capitalism is a failure is being as dishonest as you can be and posting propaganda blaiming every poverty related death on it is a joke. That being said we should find policies that we as a society want to enact to better ourselves while still respecting our rights.

@Background Pony #C50D  
Can the US be critiqued using this operational definition of capitalism? That is what I ask.

@Background Pony #C50D  
Well then to be blunt and non-analogous, I am in favour of a heavily regulated form of capitalism which prioritises the good of the workers over that of the executives, while supporting a healthy social security system and public services. My country is not as good as I would like, but America is far worse and seems to embrace it.

@Latecomer  
an excellent argument indeed, you want borders, and some control to prevent a corporation to say  
«Okay the workforce is too expensive here I’m gonna outsource to India and close»  
fine, you can close, people here will be hired somewhere else to manufacture things you were providing. Because we will make sure you can not sell your low cost shit here at the detriment of the workforce, that’s the rules.
 
Yep, that’s protectionism, and I agree, that’s how a lot of countries works.
 
 
«I’m a capitalist, there’s corn growing on that field literally for free, I’m gonna pick it and make profit»  
Law: «Nope this is someone’s property. That’s not capitalism until you pay the owner of the field the price he demands.»  
«I’m a capitalist, I’m gonna open a factory and try not to get my workers paid, 100% profits!»  
Law: «That’s slavery and it’s illegal. In capitalism you pay your emplopyees with their part of the benefits.»
 
So yes, there are laws that allows the market to work, normally, except when you have a government filled with lobbyists, like with Bayer/Monsanto, Huwawei for the 5G, the press and media also are lobbyists.  
Corporations will see a lot of benefits possible if the state regulation form a very liberal-left government are pushing.  
That’s crony capitalism you will say, but it’s not capitalism when the state is behind with your tax money, it’s literally the definition of socialism. When liberals says corporations equals people, they don’t think in term of human resources, they think in terms that corporations can be funded or helped with your tax money, even if you don’t use them or want to buy from them.
 
This also, is a thing, and why there must be a clear difference between public and private. Public : the state funds it with your money and allow zero profits, only benefits for the population. Private : people choose.

@Patachu  
Some protectionism may be necessary - but I would rather raise the global average standard.