Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)

Ebalosus
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@Patachu
 
>governments unable to handle crises  
>coronavirus will convince government that globalism is bad
 
Ok, so is it the coronavirus that shows that governments suck, or globalism?
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@Ebalosus  
governments - at least mine- favors in globalism.  
the crisis here is only the consequence of a world without borders or control, the governments prefer to ensure the system does not change rather than taking measures to secure the population.
 
@Vortaxonus  
France is screwed.
AaronMk
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Sky funeral
>governments unable to handle crises
>coronavirus will convince government that globalism is bad
Ok, so is it the coronavirus that shows that governments suck, or globalism?
 
And are we sure it’s just not shitty supply chains all ending up in the places with the cheapest labor cost in Capitalism’s march to maximize profit?
Background Pony #A6B0
@Dustcan  
Yeah, well any nation where someone can get the most votes and still lose the election is not a democracy at all. It’s not even a democratic republic. It’s a dictatorship or in this case, an oligarchy. Nonviolent, yet very obstructive protests MLK-style en masse will be necessary. We need to show them, “Hey, you can try to steal our democracy, but we won’t go down without a fight. You can throw us in jail, but we won’t let up until the integrity of our nation is reinstated.
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@AaronMk  
Capitalism also makes more sense if you can produce cheaper locally, greener, and give people jobs so they can afford it, and keep the cycle going. Capitalism isn’t the issue, if I want to sell things to who I want, the price I want, and make profits off it, I have that right, same for you or anyone.  
Liberalism is the engine of globalism to absurdity. Even if it endangers the economy and the world’s stability, it must not be changed, the corporations are making all the profits, not the country, not you, not me, not the employees who pray everyday their factory close for a cheaper factory somewhere in China or have their offices moved in India.  
In the end we are becoming, again, vassal states of others.
 
China isn’t really a capitalist country to begin with. It’s a form of capitalism with the full assistance of the CCP. That’s why it’s cheap, that’s why a country that beyond being the #1 production country lives with horrible health conditions as we see today.
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
FFS both purely-capitalist and purely-socialist systems have been debunked a million times. Things aren’t black and white. The best countries on Earth have a healthy mix of both lots of capitalism and socialism. Anyone who hates one or the other is very misinformed and has a fundamental misunderstsnding of how the real world works.
AaronMk
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@AaronMk
Capitalism also makes more sense if you can produce cheaper locally, greener, and give people jobs so they can afford it, and keep the cycle going. Capitalism isn’t the issue, if I want to sell things to who I want, the price I want, and make profits off it, I have that right, same for you or anyone.
Liberalism is the engine of globalism to absurdity. Even if it endangers the economy and the world’s stability, it must not be changed, the corporations are making all the profits, not the country, not you, not me, not the employees who pray everyday their factory close for a cheaper factory somewhere in China or have their offices moved in India.
In the end we are becoming, again, vassal states of others.
China isn’t really a capitalist country to begin with. It’s a form of capitalism with the full assistance of the CCP. That’s why it’s cheap, that’s why a country that beyond being the #1 production country lives with horrible health conditions as we see today.
 
You may get away with producing locally: if you break the unions. And that’s the implied goal. Because at the end of the day the only thing standing between you and underselling at your hearts content is labor organizing. And it’s that thought process that underlines the ultimate contradiction and inevitable crisis under capitalism. And for it: the next great Terror.
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@Background Pony #241F
 
Depends what people call socialism, like, «unemployment benefits are socialism» - nope, your contract ends or you get fired, you get unemployment wage as a back-up because you paid for it with your taxes when you’re working.  
Same thing with healthcare where it works more or less well, you pay for it when you pay taxes. it’s something the government owes you just like the right to use the roads, and the government owes you and your neighbor security. the concept or existence of public institutions is not the definition of socialism and existed long before Proudhon or Marx.
 
@AaronMk  
heh, unions. the CGT here are the first to drop their pants at the government and the CEOs. They get workers to protest and be angry, then act like they want to negociate. «So this big group will close and get rid of 1500 employees, but good news! We’ve negociated the best final salary possible, and the opportunity for a reconversion! we have won comrades! To the Employment office!»
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@Patachu  
What about those who are disabled and cannot work? What about those who make only $20,000 a year, pay $3,000 or so in taxes, and have $6,000 in healthcare costs alone, let alone use roads and schools and other public services? From a purely capitalist and monetary viewpoint, they have a net negative effect on society. That person clearly benefits from a wide degree if socialism, and would be very poor and destitute otherwise.
 
Yet socialism would recognize their humanity and value to society in other ways and says they deserve basic modern human rights like healthcare, schooling, etc. But pure socialism would take so much from everyone and give everyone so much to the point that some people would work much less because they feel no need to anymore. I don’t believe the majority of people would lose all their productivity etc. But you need to make some money at your job too, not just have it automatically redistributed anywhere near 100% to everyone. That’s where the good side of capitalism comes into play.
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@Background Pony #241F  
That’s exactly the point of it! You pay for it with your taxes, the point isn’t to lower the whole society either.  
Under Trump currently, there’s a bunch of people I know who have a better disability wage than us here in France have under Hollande (socialist) or even today (different guy, same politics but more liberal than thou), since it have never changed.
 
In fact here there’s corporations that manage everything, and even the URSAFF acts like one that can allow itself to gain benefits and profits despite being appointed by the government.
AaronMk
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@Patachu
 
We get in, Patachu. You’re just a lumpen provincial who do be like, “boy, if I can pay 1841 wages in 2020 I’d be set in my sawdust crispies operation”
 
Because you do be missing points like that.
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
You just majorly contradicted yourself.
 
First you argued heavily against socialism and in favor of capitalism, and said that the public benefits are actually capitalist because they’re both paid for and used by taxpayers. But then when you were confronted with the disparity between how much some people benefit vs. how some are netting negatives, which is, by definition, what socialism is, you basically just said it was a good thing and praised Trump with a non sequitur.
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@AaronMk  
Nah man. What I meant, if you didn’t get it, is that capitalism has nothing to do with that. Just like Anon said I don’t know if there’s such a thing as “pure capitalism” or if even comparing an economical principle and a political ideology. Right wing or left wing both will use the taxes to spend on bombs, roads, bridges, etc.  
A socialist regime or a liberal kind or a right wing kind will either be for national economics or globalized, that’s now the only difference.
 
Hell even if we had a real socialist regime that pushes an effort to close borders and ensure everyone can produce and live comfortably I’d be all for it. But at an age where corporations and everything favoritizes globalization, it’s suicide.
 
@Background Pony #241F  
Without a stable economy, without profits, how do you think the society could afford everyone a minimum of dignity? That’s the point, if you want healthcare, it will imply the taxes, that are normally collected on the profits, generated by a capitalist economy to help people who need it.
 
Take down that economy and override it with a socialist regime, there’s plenty of history books that will tell you it is a bad idea. The rich won’t give a fuck there’s plenty of countries that will welcome them!
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
I don’t pay for it with my taxes. I am disabled and haven’t paid taxes in years. I am “a leech” under purely-capitalist viewpoints. It is socialism that saves me directly, but of course a good big healthy chunk of capitalism is needed as well to keep the economy going in the first place, so in a big wayz my life is also saved by capitalism- which is my whole point. Society is made better by having a big healthy mix of both and twerking things so that they are balanced. It is foolish and simple-minded to adhere to only one guiding principle or philosophy religiously with regards to the governing of a nation’s economy.
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
I don’t believe that fully, but that is interesting. I will have to look into the dichotomy and claims you’ve presented there. They are fascinating.
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
Oh I don’t, never did. I simply believe in a well-balanced system something vaguely along the lines of what the Scandinavian countries have and what Bernie Sanders proposes. There is no heavily planned, controlled economy like in China under his plans. He’s really not a socialist so much as a centrist, which is what I believe in.
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
I don’t know what to make of globalization really though. On one hand, I don’t want to blame poor people im other countries for our problems. Even if it’s true, it seems fair game. But I don’t know enough about the globalization topic yet really.
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@Background Pony #241F  
Sanders identifies himself as a socialist. I’m just waiting for him to have the balls to dismantle and end the FED. Then we’re talking if he’s a revolutionary, or just another bureaucrat. It was in 2015-16 he kind of was interesting as he started talking about it being reformed. Since, not a word on it.  
Ending the fed would change radically the economy. For the same reason the ECB is undermining economy of the EU and forces, supports the corporate dictatorship we are into and globalism.
 
If really Sanders focuses on this, that’s the reality of the economics - central banks.
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
I do know there’s probably no easy, singular answer to trying to fix the problems caused by globalization- Unemplyment, low wages, etc. Those are the big problems with globalization- right? But being more independent and self reliant would require every nation to have the same natural resources or develop different technologies than the rest of the world… And people would likely still just rather import stuff.
Patachu
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@Background Pony #241F  
Materials can be imported, they existed since the dawn of times, from silk to minerals, oil, uranium mining, titanium mining in russia, etc. Even just in the 70’s - 80’s you still had things produced, you could quit your job and find one somewhere else the next day, or even, the same day. «Tired of the condition of this factory, I’m quitting.» and the CEOs had concurrency, if there’s a better plan you would hate to see your workforce going on your concurrent.  
Corporations should treat their employees like customers and not the opposite. Now corporations acts with authority on the customers and employees.  
Treating all like shit, because there is no longer that choice, that economical liberty, if you no longer have a job you’re pretty much fucked today.
 
Earlier I mentioned that trade is important, and it will always be what helps countries to emerge if the governement they have isn’t dumb. Alas it’s rarely the case.
Background Pony #A6B0
@Patachu  
That’s very interesting. I will look into that more later thank you for the information! I’m very tired now though so I must sleep.
 
Also, P.S. Yeah, Sanders actually has started calling himself a “democratic socialist” and it’s one of the few things he does that I think is really stupid. I respect him for it, for doing what he believes in, I just think it comes off on the American people the wrong way and isn’t really correct anyway. He’s “socialist” relative to our current economic and tax policies, but he is way way way more capitalist than the vast majority of socialist nations currently or throughout history. It unintentionally sends a mixed/bad message to a lot of people when he calls himself a socialist. Again, I respect it and it looks like he’s trying to say, “hey, I’m here to fight for 99% of people and make the 1% are still be richer than the rest of us, but not so grotesquelly rich that the rest of us suffer because of it as they use loopholes to pay lower effective tax rates than their secretaries.”
 
It just comes off as something different when he says socialism and I wish he didn’t do that. It’s really not correct, I can show you his tax plans and stuff sometime and how it compares to real socialists. But anywho I need to sleep have a goodnight dude.
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