Star Wars General

Darth Prime
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@Zincy
I just don’t think it should have ended with him on the ground because that’s what makes it look like Rey won and that it took Illum splitting apart to save the antagonist from the heroine.
At the very least it should have ended on a draw between them.
tehwatever
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I also dont have the fixation on earning it. I pretty much enjoy gifts and random luck in storytelling.
What those two characters said above are about doing the best with the gifts you’re given. I dont read anything about earning strength between the lines when watching the episode.
This talent vs hard work narrative is to me a bit tiresome. Nobody that has had success started with zero talent and pure hard work. Also nobody relied on pure talent with zero training (unless in satire).
There is no rule that says “you must endure X amount of hardship before you deserve this power” that fits everybody. Every character has different growth rate. Some are just exponential and ridiculously gifted. I accept that.
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@Darth Prime
I dont get SW fans, then, because I saw her train even if a little and I didnt think that line was meant as a jab to anybody, but rather a general wisdom any Sifu Guru woulda said.Even my pencak silat instructor said more or less the same thing, way before TRoS and Mando.
I also watch MHA and I’m not conflicted. Every character has talent and everybody trains. Some grew faster as the plot demands, some kinda stagnated until the plot demands that they level up.
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
Bakugou had innate talent an amazing Quirk which he was praised for that feed his ego.
Then Deku trains his ass off and earns One For All from All-Might and can fight against Bakugou.
That plus seeing other powerful Quirks specifically Todoroki was a wake up call to Bakugou that he can’t just get by on natural talent and power he has to start working hard.
Rey doesn’t do much of any training is just strong in The Force and just gets everything by the end.
We get invested in our heroes because they grow because we can look back to when they were nobodies and nothing and see how far they come like with Deku those moments where he triumphs are satisfying because the feel earned.
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Also, Midoriya from MHA was literally GIVEN his power. That bit about him working out to earn his power was flavor. Isnt it kinda arbitrary that all he’s gotta do was clean the beach? Is that a real measurement? Nah. The manga author coulda written ANYTHING and ppl will accept it.
Why him, why not other kid? It was luck, opportunity, willingness and availability. Midoriya ​was at the right time at the right place.
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@Darth Prime
That earned thing is subjective, and this is thoroughly made fun of in One Punch Man. Every character lampshades how bullshit Saitama’s workout routine is compared to the astronomical Planet Buster power he’s earned.
Some fans on the other hand, thinks that YES, he earned that, because he’s trained his ass off and we WATCHED him train and struggle, so we find connection with him–when really, Saitama’s growth is just some bullshit. But it’s a comedy manga so eh. May not count.
Point is: I get what you mean. I really do. What you don’t get, is why I also enjoy bullshit powerup, if they provide me with catharsis.
I’d watch a bully who’s been bullying a kid for weeks get beat up the next day by the bullied kid and I wont even bother asking where he got that stick and if he’s trained to use it before.
Get what I mean?
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@tehwatever
Well I agree with the right place at the right time part to a degree I also find the rest of this casual dismissal a fallacy.
All-Might ended picking Deku as his successor because of the strength of the boy’s character similar to why Steve Rogers was chosen to become Captain America Deku’s actions reminded All-Might of why he became a hero at in the first place when the Number One Hero was plagued by cynicism.
Chance and luck played a part in giving Deku a chance but he recognized that and worked his ass off to make his body ready to receive One For All.
You can chalk that up to “flavor” yes the author could have written anything they wanted but that is the difference between a good writer and a hack.
A good writer knows how to structure a story and their characters arcs so that we the reader/viewer get that satisfaction thing I was talking about before.
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@Darth Prime
For me? It would be more cathartic if she went extra and reached bullshit Starkiller level for just a moment.
I’m an visual oriented guy. My catharsis comes from the display.
If she was to flip an entire ship upside down even with zero training just because she went mad or beginning to believe then I’d geek out and be totally hyped. I wouldnt need justification at that moment.
Heck when she shot lightning from her hands I legit was excited.
You mention One Piece? Everything everybody does is super extra and had zero prior explanation and I dont care. Is cool.
Everybody post 2 year timeskip grew a disproportionate amount and I’m okay with it.
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@Darth Prime
Yes. That time skip. 2 years was all it took for the strawhat to go from a favortie up&comer to guys who eventually hit a bounty up to a billion? Cos they never dedicated time to train after the 2 years: they just went and fought and leveled up naturally as they meet challenges, but not like, actually training (Zoro aside, cos all he do is sleep and train)
Ppl read the line “they trained and worked hard for it” and just assumed the growth was deserved. Even if the growth rate was exponential and expectionally high, but it never really mattered how, how long, or how hard the training was. You as the audience merely fill in the missing pieces by yourself to justify the insane growth.
See that’s what I’ve been trying to highlight.
If audience hears “I work hard so much I almost died everyday” that suddenly feels like justification enough, even when reality that’s counterproductive. Why injure yourself everyday? What about rest period? Recovery? What’s the diet? Working on different skills so you wont have a major weak link?
These things, the audience are willing to ignore in order to justify the growth of a character they like, because they just want the end result, namely, a powerup.
So why cant SW fans do the same with Rey? We saw her swing swords around, and we saw a training montage. So what’s missing?
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
Anything that resembles or actually suggest she trained which swigging a sword around or running through an obstacle course at the start of the third movie doesn’t really give that felling in the latter’s case it’s a too little too late case she’s all ready done things like beat Kylo Ren and fought Snoke’s guards so her run at the start of TROS is just just showing off how skilled and cool Rey is rather than showing her growth like they through it did.
I’m not asking for the minutia of a character’s training regemen like you seem be thinking all I want is it to feel like it makes sense for characters to get to their strength increase that it feels natural which thing like MHA and OP do and The Sequel Trilogy fail at.
When Luffy gets beaten by Kaidou and thrown in prison to break him Luffy instead treats it as a training arc from him to get ready for the rematch so when the Straw Hat starts to do damage to the Yonkō it is satisfying.
Like let’s think when Rey first uses the Force when she Mind Tricks James Bond how did she know she could do that? How did she know what the Jedi Mind Trick was? Luke at least saw Obi-Wan use it first and didn’t start using it until ROTJ? Rey starts using it because… ?
The reason they give later and from out of universe was that she back hacked Ben Solo’s brain when he tried to get into hers and thus just… gained Force skills.
And that’s problem she didn’t come by it honestly.
As Yoda says to Luke when asked if the Dark Side is more powerful “No! No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.”
It is thus established that quick and easy and short-cuts are the path to the Dark Side and Rey was given a short-cut to her powers so it flys in the face of the themes of Star Wars.
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Rey is interesting, so just my take on this:
  • In TFA she is able to use force powers without even knowing she is force sensitive. She is also able to hold her own against a trained lightsaber user without any training whatsoever.
  • In TLJ nobody really does anything and everything goes wrong. She steals an old book from Luke I guess…
  • In TROS she has actually been trained by Leia, Leia is shown to be stronger than Luke so she is clearly a much better trainer for Rey. Rey is now a fully trained jedi but even more powerful than any other jedi ever seen on screen. She can use force lightning, heal any wound, raise the dead and go toe to toe with a master sith lord and win after a few months of training.
As Rey has no weaknesses whatsoever she is clearly the best jedi that there ever was.
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I woulda liked her better if the movie does crazy choreography and jedi kungfu to showcase her anime powers, but they decided to ground the fight scenes to be more realistic ​which is disappointing.
OP characters need OP visuals to back it up. That’s really my only criticism of her. I dont mind her being OP flawless. I watch SW for the fancy lights, which is something SW Visions brought in spades.
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@Darth Prime
Ok I get you. But I need to distinguish something. When I see something like a jump in power or acquiring new skill, I make a distinction between:
I accept (or suspension of disbelief) vs It makes sense (logical conclusion)
With MHA and OP and with pretty much anything with fantasy element, Star Wars included, I just accept. I suspend my disbelief and roll with it.
I.e. MHA and OP progression to me, makes about as much sense as the Disney Trilogy ​but I like them enough to not fuss about the detail. Which is why I also, didnt fuss about Rey, nor any of whatever it is they pulled in Vision.
As long as they look cool af, I’m more than willing to let things slide. Not because it makes sense, but because fussing about it would ruin my enjoyment.
Note: Nearly all of Luffy’s wins have been things he came up with on the spot, without prior training. His brother Sabo pulled an excellent Hiken like he’s been a Mera Mera user for years.
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
I’m going link this section of Sabo’s wiki page about the flare-flare fruit.
You can chalk that up to flavoring if you want but that’s kinda the point of flavor it makes it easy to swallow things.
I get it ya like the superficial big hitty things who cares why!
But comparing what MHA and OP do to get their characters powered up to how Rey gets powered up is foolhardy and blindness to the extreme.
Because all you care about (at least as you seem to have said) is big strong good guy wins big so you don’t actually see the depth that one side (MHA OP) has in how it got there whereas the other side (Star Wars Sequel Trilogy) has not done even the bare minimum of that thus your arguments end up ringing hollow and you actually end up undercutting whatever point you think you’re making.
Rey awakens to her Force Powers and just starts Mind Tricking and Lightsaber fighting as if she’s always known those were things.
Now compare that to Luffy when he starts awakening to his Haki primarily Conquer’s Haki and maybe some hints Observation Haki but mostly the former and only when he’s pushed emotionally (and yes go ahead and say it’s when the plot needs him to I know you’re thinking it) but he clearly doesn’t have any control of it it’s only when he goes to train under Rayleigh that he can do all three forms of Haki.
If Luffy were like Rey he’d have been doing Armament Observation and Supreme King as soon as he started doing the third one.
You may like that superficial superpowered shit but do NOT fucking dare tell me that what the Sequel Trilogy did was the same as One Piece and My Hero Academia.
Don’t you dare actually think you can say Rey and her path to strength is the same as Luffy and Deku’s when they are so very very clearly not.
Darth Prime
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@Darth Prime
I also think the training in the third movie was actually there to show off how good she was.
So maybe that was the intent. To show off her current level.
Because people were clearly doubting what her level of skill was by the third movie.
Yeah that was the problem.
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@Darth Prime
Yes. It’s flavoring. Mofo pulled a powerful Hiken like nothing not five minutes after eating Mera Mera but then went like “hm. Im still not used to it” like COME ON! It makes no sense, but like I said–I accept it, because it was fire. all puns intended.
Ofc there is a lot more thought put into MHA and OP compared to Disney Trilogy. The Disney Trilogy is the weaker ones imo, and I had to do more mental olympics and ignore more things in order to suspend my disbelief.
Luffy and Deku gone thru more shit than Rey. Nobody can deny that. But that to me is independent of their power level growth and I simply cannot say that just because one person has suffered more hardship and emotional struggle, their exponential jump in power level is justified.
To assume that only after an emotional stress and hardship and sacrifice that you are entitled to inexplicable superpowers is…like, a miraculous wish fulfillment. It’s heartwarming, uplifting, motivating, cathartic, inspiring. Like Deku and Luffy. But it’s still more miracle and plot than sense.
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Rey on the other hand has not been thru anywhere near the struggle these other dudes go through. She been given gifts. Is bullshit but I accept that, because of what she does with it: kick ass. So I’d rather she skip the training, handwave it with “I downloaded KungFu into my brain”, move on.
Clearly the message of the Disney Trilogy isnt about training. So if you’re looking for one, that’s not the right place. Because I realized it early, I stopped looking for an underdog story in the Disney Trilogy.
While MHA and OP are your epic underdog, with hard work and a bit of luck you can create miracles story, the Disney Trilogy is NOT.
Rey’s story is the “I give you OP powers, now stop whining and do something” so I stopped caring how she got it. Which is why to me, any kind of vague 5 minute training montage is sufficient because it was clear the writers wanted to show her off asap.
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
And it’s more satisfying because of it than anything with Rey.
It’s like I said before it’s the difference between good writers and hack writers.
A good writer will make the audience invest in the characters and their journey and make you fill good when the accomplish their goals.
A hack will do things simply because they thought it was cool and not give any thought to the context or reason for the cool thing to happen that it’s cool is all that matters whereas a good writer could do the same kinda cool thing but have it make sense in the context of the story and thus be actually satisfying.
Rey does cool things and is powerful cause she’s the MC and that’s cool to do that’s hack writing.
OP and MHA Writers take us on a journey with Luffy and Deku and make things in the context of their respective universe make sense so when the cool things happen it’s an earned moment and thus satisfying that’s good writing.
The former is shit-tier the latter is god-tier.
Rey pretty much does not earn anything she does or gets in the story she’s just does cool stuff because she’s the MC and that’s all there is to her so it’s unsatisfying and lame and weaksause and that’s why she gets labeled Mary Sue
That’s my point it’s bad writing don’t even try to think it’s the same thing it’s incomparable.
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