Star Wars General

tehwatever
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@Darth Prime
She fights better. Is more in control of her choices, and generally a more secure person. Also we found out she’s from a powerful bloodline.
I dont need rags to riches. Rags to slightly better rags is change enough for me.
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
Aside from maybe the more secure person I don’t see how much of those are different than in TFA.
Like she beats Kylo Ren at the end of TFA she does it took the planet falling apart to save the antagonist from the heroine so what improvements did she really need or get by TROS in terms of being a better fighter?
tehwatever
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@Darth Prime
She could barely hold her own against Kylo in TFA (at least, until some anime powerup bullshit at the end)
In TLJ she fought some elite martial arts dudes in red shirts alongside Kylo.
Then in TROS she solo’d similar elite red shirt dudes.
Clear improvement. Matter fact it’s almost video game-y.
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
When?
Let’s look at the fight in TFA Kylo Ren mentions the Force and Rey basically goes “Oh right the Force I can use that” and then she beats him she knocks him on the ground she has him at her mercy clearly Rey won and the planet falls apart waving Kylo Ren.
This is a problem she beat her enemy In the first movie where does she have to go from there what does she have to improve on?
And yes Rey had been shown to know how to fight she has her own stick fighting style I can believe she knows how to defend herself from growing up on Jakku but having her win in a lightsaber fight for the first time holding one against a guy who’s been trained for years with one and in how to use the Force which she only starting using that day well that’s a leap than innate?
Like imagine if Luke beat Vader one-on-one in A New Hope like that what do you do for the rest of the trilogy then?
tehwatever
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@Angrybrony
I did say she fights better. That’s not a character change.
She’s more secure of a person but that is independent of her improvement in combat.
@Darth Prime
Just flip the question: Okay say Luke wins against Vader in the first of planned trilogy.
Think Vader isnt gonna try comeback for a rematch? Two, three times? Each time better than before? (Assuming Luke didnt kill him)
Also, think the writer isn’t just gonna throw a more dangerous threat a la ANIME?
Goku beat Frieza, the baddest in the galaxy who outperforms everybody by a mile the first time he met him. Killed him dead, thru BS powerup. We somehow still follow Goku around, years after that event.
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@tehwatever
Well see that’s the thing isn’t it? Cause that’s kinda what TFA tried to hint at.
Snoke tells Hux to bring Kylo Ren so he can complete his training but then what training does he get in the next movie? None Snoke just chastised him with real life people’s complaints.
And Vader needing to get strong to beat Luke is such a bass aackwards thought the whole point is the protagonist as something or someone to overcome the good guy is the one that need to improve and grow to meet the threat of the villain not the other way around.
@Angrybrony
Much like how in the Ninth Jedi you can understand that era and setting in its short runtime than the Squeal era in that entire trilogy’s combined runtime.
@Darth Prime
actually if you want to get technical he did beat him in the bombing run it’s just daddy got his belt out in TESB.
Actually no Vader had Luke dead in his sights in the trench run Han had to show up and save the kid.
Luke in no way whatsoever beats Vader in ANH.
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@Darth Prime
Considering that there existed a real life hero (if you’re a combat sports kinda guy) who went undefeated his entire run, against increasing difficulty, I don’t think it’s NECESSARY for a hero to make a comeback against a surmountable odd. It’s a proven way to do it, but not the only way to do it.
tehwatever
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the whole point is the protagonist as something or someone to overcome. The good guy is the one that need to improve and grow to meet the threat of the villain not the other way around.
This.
This is the proven way to write a protagonist, but it doesn’t have to be the only way to write them.
While I agree there needs to be a problem the protagonist needs to solve to grow, there is no need to make them lose to a villain.
That would make the villain a goal he must work toward. While that is fine, having different villains that the protagonist beats every other day is fine, too.
El Mando beats different challenges every other episode before finally challenging Gideon way later in the end of the season 1 and he beats him too, despite initial setback.
Mando dont need to “lose” for us to see that he’s the protag. The audience just need to know the show revolves around him and the challenges he overcomes.
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
Having other villains in a TV show does make sense since it’s long form story telling but a movie needs to be more focused and Vader serves as the primary antagonist through most of the Original Trilogy basically as the face of the Empire until the Emperor comes to the forefront.
And Mando gets his ass kicked a lot across that series mostly just tanking damage with his armor and he’ll first episode he gets the shit beat out of him by a blurg.
But Rey just learns the Force is a thing and within a day and no one telling her what the Force is or does she Mind Tricks James Bond into release her and beats Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel the first time she ever holds a saber.
I am not saying she HAD lose that would have been the best way to end it but they could have just had draw match just absolutely not win cause then Rey has accomplished more in the first movie than Luke did by the end of A New Hope and he blow up the damn Death Star!
tehwatever
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Rey has accomplished more in the first movie than Luke did by the end of A New Hope and he blow up the damn Death Star!
That’s your opinion. Pulling a clutch move and saving the galaxy from a planet buster using a power he learned not a couple days ago? Being one of the best pilot of the Rebellion? That’s really freaking cool.
Rey won a scuffle. Something she already had experience in, so she got a head start.
But then AGAIN, to me it dont matter who’s more accomplished. Accomplishment per screentime does not automatically make a character good or relatable or appealing.
You gimme a character who loses all the time who somehow wields 3 lighstabers with two arms, he’s already to me initially more interesting than Rey and Luke combined.
I’m not an SW fan so I dont get this fixation on Luke and why nobody should be better than him.
Darth Prime
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@tehwatever
I’m not against someone being better than Luke just that they earned it and not just given to them because they’re supposed to be the new hotness for a new generation.
Hell Ashoka is arguably stronger and better than Luke especially at that point.
Luke is the main character of the Original Trilogy his journey is the defining one so he is the standard that other characters specifically Jedi are judged against.
Zincy
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I agree with a lot of takes of Rey being a little more powerful than she should have been, but the Kylo duel is still a bad example.
Kylo was an emotionally compromised, conflicted wreck who had just taken a bowcaster bolt to the abdomen, had a brief but intense fight with Finn, and was fighting on ground that was literally falling apart.
Even then, it’s debatable whether Rey actually “beat” him. She wounded him, but the ground split and pulled them apart. It’s likely that a longer battle would have resulted in Kylo taking the upper hand as his rage built and his superior training started paying dividends.
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