Ryhaal 
Hey now, you said I was strawmanning and I pointed out something that’s actually happening. If you don’t accept it as a valid example that’s not on me. Also please for the love of god stop putting words in my mouth. Thank you.
About AI art theft...
LemonDrop 
C++ Crazed
@Ryhaal
No you claimed it with no evidence. There’s pretty much none of that happening on Derpi, not that I have seen at least. I have not yet seen a single soul say the thing you claimed in fact on the entire internet. Therefore it’s reasonable to conclude you saw a very rare instance of abnormal behavior and shouldn’t get upset about it.
No you claimed it with no evidence. There’s pretty much none of that happening on Derpi, not that I have seen at least. I have not yet seen a single soul say the thing you claimed in fact on the entire internet. Therefore it’s reasonable to conclude you saw a very rare instance of abnormal behavior and shouldn’t get upset about it.
LightningBolt 
![Thread Starter - [NO SPOILER, LEAK-FREE] Season 8 Discussion and Speculation: Discovery Family airings](https://derpicdn.net/badges/2017/7/2/0bd59d4eff9c3aeaad.svg "Thread Starter - [NO SPOILER, LEAK-FREE] Season 8 Discussion and Speculation: Discovery Family airings")
Senior Moderator
Undead inside
This thread is starting to get rather heated, I suggest you all please cool off, take a breather, re-read the rules, get a drink, take a nap, go for a walk, as back and forth arguing is not in the spirit of the site or the rules. Discussion on the merits of AI and concerns about it are fine to be had but it is starting to get intense.
Background Pony #9DAE
I’d just like to contribute that I, too, am a visual artist, writer, and programmer, and I see no problem with people using my work to train AI models, and I sense no threat of being “replaced” by these things.
I feel that any manner in which people can use my hard work to gain enjoyment is a good outcome, and I also feel that anyone who would choose an AI over my programming, writing, or drawing likely would not have paid me or anyone else for my work in the first place. (This is similar to the argument I use for piracy: if I can’t find a game or piece of software illegally, I’m not gonna use it in the first place, period - after I’ve tried it for awhile, though, there’s a slim chance I may find it worth paying for and then do so)
Cocaine
Princess Coke
@LemonDrop
This is incredible wall of text full of strawmaning, false equivalences and bad faith arguments against the points that no one ever made.
Claiming that artists have zero understanding of what art is and how it created is an interesting move considering you aren’t an artist and demonstrated clear lack of knowledge on the topic.
I suggest u to stop insulting people who know their craft and expressing valid concerns. Maybe even apologize. It would be in the spirit of the show and the site isn’t it?
This is incredible wall of text full of strawmaning, false equivalences and bad faith arguments against the points that no one ever made.
Claiming that artists have zero understanding of what art is and how it created is an interesting move considering you aren’t an artist and demonstrated clear lack of knowledge on the topic.
I suggest u to stop insulting people who know their craft and expressing valid concerns. Maybe even apologize. It would be in the spirit of the show and the site isn’t it?
Parallel Black 
@LemonDrop
As I’ve pointed out to others, there are people claiming to be real artists for using AI. They are not quiet and they are not hard to find. Just because they aren’t saying that stuff here in no way means they aren’t saying that. Sure, they’re over on Twitter, but the location of the problem was never even brought up; the fact that it’s happening - and it is happening regardless of how much you seem to want to downplay the bad actors - is enough of a sign for me to figure out what types of people these fake artists are. Their behaviour is identical to NFTbros, so the comparison is valid.
As I’ve pointed out to others, there are people claiming to be real artists for using AI. They are not quiet and they are not hard to find. Just because they aren’t saying that stuff here in no way means they aren’t saying that. Sure, they’re over on Twitter, but the location of the problem was never even brought up; the fact that it’s happening - and it is happening regardless of how much you seem to want to downplay the bad actors - is enough of a sign for me to figure out what types of people these fake artists are. Their behaviour is identical to NFTbros, so the comparison is valid.
You compare writing to art. That I absolutely agree with, since they’re both creative fields. Comparing coding to art? Shakier. It’s art in the same way being a car mechanic is art, but I guess I can vibe with it. However, wouldn’t that mean the only person who can take genuine credit in the creation of AI art is the person/people who coded the AI itself? You referred to AI artists as real artists, so please explain to me why they deserve such a title, preferably without the accusations of virtue signalling or strawmanning. We can do without the Twitter-style argumentation muddying up the thread, I think.
I won’t lambast you for that “I only care about results” line, since you’re free to your opinion, but I do hope you realise how much of a minority you are here. You aren’t even a Derpi artist yourself, so you have much less to lose in this mess than everyone else in this thread. Like others are saying; humans first. Artists first.
I’d like to point out the fact that, this time next year, the position of concept artist will have vanished from the industry. Character concept artists will go shortly after, and by that point AI will have progressed to the point that it’s able to create short animations. How long until it’s able to create entire movies and games? A fair few years, probably, but it’s absolutely inevitable if it’s allowed to happen.
Call it shouting into the void if you want, it doesn’t change the fact that a core aspect of human expression is/will be under threat of complete destruction this time next decade, once there is no longer any need to learn.
LemonDrop
C++ Crazed
@Parallel Black
The bit about it taking away jobs “within a year” is absolute nonsense, AI is not as good as you think it is really and it’s not able to accomplish the nuanced tasks professional artists are assigned with. It’s just a tool that will be used as I’ve said many times. AI is so far away from doing anything but the most basic tasks at a human level so this is really just not a concern, just a bunch of fearmongering by anyone who thinks its going to take over the world in a matter of years.
The bit about it taking away jobs “within a year” is absolute nonsense, AI is not as good as you think it is really and it’s not able to accomplish the nuanced tasks professional artists are assigned with. It’s just a tool that will be used as I’ve said many times. AI is so far away from doing anything but the most basic tasks at a human level so this is really just not a concern, just a bunch of fearmongering by anyone who thinks its going to take over the world in a matter of years.
Art or “human expression” is also not being destroyed either, it’s changing. Art has changed over the millennia from cave paintings to the multitude of complex forms it embodies now (music, writing, movies, digital art, traditional art, etc). If anything attempting to censor AI generated art is harming a new form of human expression made available to more people which is why its unacceptable and I will not ever agree that it is a good thing.
And finally, of course programming is art when done in the right way. I am not going to rant about the Demoscene for ages but it has been an underground computer procedural art scene for decades at this point and is undoubtedly a form of audiovisual artistic expression. Additionally games are art of course in both an audiovisual and interactive way, sure the game may include more typical forms of art but the game itself in how its designed and how everything fits together is art. I happen to be a game developer which is why I can safely say I am artist given I am working on producing my own indie game (as well as having produced some artsey-oriented programming things before as well which are on my Derpi artist tag).
What you need to do though is learn to use AI tools as they start coming up and incorporate them into your art (though when such things will start to become more integrated into common art programs is still unclear, this is all very new technology still). The highest skill ceiling of artistic expression will always be something only humans can do, it will just be accomplished with new tools in the future rather than staying static for all of eternity (a frankly ridiculous concept when you think about it).
Oh forgot to add:
Of course the creator of the AI is an artist too and deserves most the credit for putting that much effort into it, but people who generate images are artists too. They are very low quality ones, about the same as scribbling in MS paint for a bit, but they are artists none the less as it’s their creative input and recognition for what looks “good” that is the artistic expression they are performing. More sophisticated users will provide more detailed image-based prompts as well or toy with things for a lot longer to get it looking exactly how they want, and it starts approaching a higher effort thing in that case. Of course still nothing to say slaving over a beautiful image for 30 hours, but it’s not 100% trivial either.
Of course the creator of the AI is an artist too and deserves most the credit for putting that much effort into it, but people who generate images are artists too. They are very low quality ones, about the same as scribbling in MS paint for a bit, but they are artists none the less as it’s their creative input and recognition for what looks “good” that is the artistic expression they are performing. More sophisticated users will provide more detailed image-based prompts as well or toy with things for a lot longer to get it looking exactly how they want, and it starts approaching a higher effort thing in that case. Of course still nothing to say slaving over a beautiful image for 30 hours, but it’s not 100% trivial either.
Some people will also just combine it with their existing artistic skills, using the AI to generate a base and then manually cleaning it up which is also more effort being put into it, or in the case of some truly creative stuff like the pony music I mentioned previously much time is spent over getting the AI to sing just right at all the right pitches, combined with the author’s lyric writing and music composition which is all combined into one impressive final product. There’s just unlimited possibilities in how you can use AI really as you’d expect with a form of art like that.
Background Pony #A2CE
I’d just like to point out that discussions like these happened over a century ago when cameras started being a thing. A lot of people truly believed it was the end of all art, that there was no skill or artistry involved in taking pictures, that the blackboxes should be destroyed and those taking or exhibiting photographs should be shunned etc.
And not only did people continue to create art, but the number of people doing so exploded. And ever since tablets were invented, along with digital art editing programs, it’s exploded even further. Along with the agreement that photography is art in itself, just a different type of art than using a pencil or paintbrush.
The invention of cars also didn’t lead the the extinction of horses or horse riding; it made travel more accessible to everyone, and elevated horse riding from something common to something of high value. The invention of cinema didn’t run theatres out of business, it made entertainment more accessible, created new industries, and elevated the quality of theatre even further.
And as for coding being art, outside of what the code is going to be used for, it definitely can be. Sure, for most programmers it’s just a mechanical task, like a McDonald’s cook preparing a burger; but a chef at a 3-star Michelin restaurant is definitely creating art when they prepare a meal, right? Both are effectively doing the same thing in the end.
Ryhaal
@LemonDrop
[…]
you’re absolutely strawmanning people now, no one (or at least few) are proclaiming generating AI art makes them some talented artist equatable to someone who has been doing it for decades.[…]
but people who generate images are artists too.And with that I will leave this thread forever. I’m tired. Goodnight!
Background Pony #A2CE
@Ryhaal
You obviated the very important “talented equatable to” in their statement. Given your general hostility I can only assume that was intentional and meant as a poorly conceived zinger in the hopes people would have poor reading comprehension and just take the side of the more aggressive poster.
You obviated the very important “talented equatable to” in their statement. Given your general hostility I can only assume that was intentional and meant as a poorly conceived zinger in the hopes people would have poor reading comprehension and just take the side of the more aggressive poster.
If a child writes a bad poem, they’re an artist. No one is equating them to Michelangelo.
Background Pony #9689
“but people who generate images are artists too.” I didn’t expect to come here and find an agreeable sentence among the artists freaking out about “theft” lol
Parallel Black
@Background Pony #1074
@Background Pony #A2CE
@Background Pony #9689
Why is Lemondrop the only person fighting in AI’s corner who isn’t a BP?
@Background Pony #A2CE
@Background Pony #9689
Why is Lemondrop the only person fighting in AI’s corner who isn’t a BP?
@Ryhaal
And wow, I didn’t even notice that!
And wow, I didn’t even notice that!
It’s maybe not that people are claiming to be as talented as real artists; from what I’ve seen on Twitter, it’s more that they think the entire industry is itself a joke not worthy of regard. They don’t see themselves as talented, because they already view art as intrinsically worthless, and now, effortless (I’ll admit this part is pure conjecture on my part, but again, I’ve seen the types of people shitting on real artists on Twitter. They’re the types who tell you to get a “real job”, so…).
Derwol
Can Derpibooru do something to stop people from using art that’s already circulating on the internet?
The answer is no.
But people on twatter are laughing at me!
Stop going to twitter. Problem solved.
Maybe Derpibooru could ban all AI art to disincentivize it!
What an utterly abhorrent idea. Let’s blanket ban an entire emerging medium because of some arcane reasons only conceivable to me. Let’s harm and stifle the fandom we (poorly) pretend to care about. It doesn’t solve my made up issues even if we do it? Let’s do it anyway!
Abhorrent.
Background Pony #A2CE
@Parallel Black
LemonDrop has never cared about what people think about him.
LemonDrop has never cared about what people think about him.
As for myself, I don’t want to have my name attached to some out of context screencap shared, I don’t want people to associate me with “they hate artists!” wherever I go. I’ve seen how these things play out in the past; I don’t have thousands of twitter followers, I don’t have a Discord server full of fans, I don’t have a network of popular artist friends that will boost my opinion to their own followers. And I can see that some of the people participating in this discussion are incredibly hostile and would not blink twice before painting me as evil and taking glee in making me miserable.
Plus, as I’ve said before, I have actually had my workplace called over far less important online disagreements. I don’t need shit like that in my life again now, or ever.
As for what “people on Twitter say”, who cares? It would take me ten seconds to find a hundred people on Twitter saying all sorts of stupid and vile things about any topic imaginable. Is it possible you’re hyperfocussing on the worst of the worst?
Background Pony #1074
@Parallel Black
AI Art is just art.
AI Art is just art.
Now, take what @Background Pony #A2CE has said here:
I’d just like to point out that discussions like these happened over a century ago when cameras started being a thing. A lot of people truly believed it was the end of all art, that there was no skill or artistry involved in taking pictures, that the blackboxes should be destroyed and those taking or exhibiting photographs should be shunned etc.And not only did people continue to create art, but the number of people doing so exploded. And ever since tablets were invented, along with digital art editing programs, it’s exploded even further. Along with the agreement that photography is art in itself, just a different type of art than using a pencil or paintbrush.The invention of cars also didn’t lead the the extinction of horses or horse riding; it made travel more accessible to everyone, and elevated horse riding from something common to something of high value. The invention of cinema didn’t run theatres out of business, it made entertainment more accessible, created new industries, and elevated the quality of theatre even further.And as for coding being art, outside of what the code is going to be used for, it definitely can be. Sure, for most programmers it’s just a mechanical task, like a McDonald’s cook preparing a burger; but a chef at a 3-star Michelin restaurant is definitely creating art when they prepare a meal, right? Both are effectively doing the same thing in the end.
That said, I see this as a double edged sword, so… 🤷
Background Pony #C01B
People who ask 200$ for one piece of porn art is exactly what they deserve. I’m glad the AI is replacing them on this front.
Background Pony #A2CE
@Background Pony #C01B
People that really just wanted “one piece of porn” always had literally thousands of artists of similar (or even higher) quality to the high-priced ones that would do the work for far, far less (or even free). The reeeing about high prices has always comes from people that wouldn’t ever even drop a tenth of the ask price and are offended people don’t just give them everything for free, period, or resentful other people are finding success in something “as simple as drawing”.
People that really just wanted “one piece of porn” always had literally thousands of artists of similar (or even higher) quality to the high-priced ones that would do the work for far, far less (or even free). The reeeing about high prices has always comes from people that wouldn’t ever even drop a tenth of the ask price and are offended people don’t just give them everything for free, period, or resentful other people are finding success in something “as simple as drawing”.
Really doubt that the people that were paying those prices will be going for AI art; most of those high prices are because of the artist’s renown, and/or because they want a high number of specific details / complexity.
Background Pony #82E8
@Background Pony #C01B
200$ is only 3-4 days of work at minimum wage tho? It’s really not that much money to be upset about
200$ is only 3-4 days of work at minimum wage tho? It’s really not that much money to be upset about
Background Pony #A2CE
@Background Pony #82E8
It isn’t (for most people in western countries with jobs), no.
It isn’t (for most people in western countries with jobs), no.
But I’ve been in the fandom long enough to see these people complain about any prices since the very beginning, and they’re the same that complained about artists on Patreon doing time releases or exclusive images, or artists selling art folios. Usually they also go on rants about how they shouldn’t be allowed to charge for using Hasbro’s characters, too.
People that would never pay a dime for anything “virtual” have existed since before the internet, the games and movie/TV industries are overflowing with them. They’ll never go away, sadly.
Background Pony #AB6B
@Background Pony #C01B
Sounds to me like you’re the type of person who wants free art, my dude.
Sounds to me like you’re the type of person who wants free art, my dude.
Ciaran 
Senior Moderator
友情は魔法だ
Why is Lemondrop the only person fighting in AI’s corner who isn’t a BP?
Everyone should IMMEDIATELY stop casting shade on anyone posting anonymously
Given the people participating in this thread, and the vitriol that is being thrown around in this thread and on others, my sincere advice to anyone posting anonymously here is to keep posting anonymously.
And if you think you’d like to weigh in but know that doing so might cost you your job or result in personal harassment online or in person, post anonymously.
If you think people posting anonymously is a problem, report the specific comment you are suspicious of for whatever rule you believe they are breaking. If it the report is closed without comment, then you know you were wrong.
On an entirely related note, since there are very few people on staff who are in a position to be able to suffer the harassment, threats on their lives, phone calls at work from internet terrorists, and other forms of abuse that comes from trying to moderate a thread such as this one on this site, I’m have volunteered to do so. Which means I’m not participating in this or similar threads from here on out.
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