The Pizza Thread - With a Side of Toxic-Mario

Background Pony #F2D9
@Spike the Brave and Glorious  
@Zebasiz  
So, the Yoko pic is definetely traced, the proof is posted there. The others i’ll admit is just assumptions, tho it’s hard to find the original pic.  
Still the point that gripes me the most is that he sells this stuff and he clearly sees nothing wrong with it, not even when show undeniable proof that one of his work is traced.
 
The way he acts makes me think that he will do it again and again. This is just a fear, i know, but for what’s worth i would like that he would stop now to avoid actually becoming the next Drawpony.
Background Pony #F2D9
@HectorSmash  
the guilty artwork is not on his shop, but the other anthros are and he did say he was gonna make merchandise out of the traced one too, so it’s not above him.  
“I will say that all the anthros I have and will put out will all be on my online store as a variety of items but go to my journals to see where to get them. This Yoko I was shocked how much people liked this at my last couple cons.”  
So he’s definetely not above selling traced artwork.
Zebasiz
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@HectorSmash  
I can only speak from my own viewpoint, but to me his response seemed to be coming from annoyance at being accused of tracing, and then jumped on as a [to paraphrase] “traitor”. I did see a post of his offering to seek out his recording of making the picture, as well as other information.
 
But again, that’s just how I saw it. I don’t always read people as well as others can. So I am fully admitting I could be completely wrong.
 
As I said, I just feel that the outburst against him felt extremely strong for what seems to be one image. And I’d personally like to see more evidence before fully condemning him. Though I understand that such prof can be difficult to obtain.
 
And again: I understand the anger towards the issue, especially when it concerns artwork people pay for. I’m not saying it’s wrong to cal out an artist for doing wrong. I just prefer to be certain before possibly ruining someone’s reputation.
HectorSmash
Charitable Contributor - Contributed to a series of art packs that helped raise over $10,000 for charity
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@Background Pony #34A6  
“This Yoko I was shocked how much people liked this at my last couple cons”
 
Dude, he brought that to a con. Multiple. In the past tense, too, meaning he’s already sold it. We’re past the point of “okay he might sell this” and onto “okay he has almost definitely sold this”
Zebasiz
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@HectorSmash  
You sure? Or was it one of those display pieces that sits on the wall to show the art-style off, but isn’t for sale? I’ve seen artists do that before, have examples of their other works displayed but not among those for sale.
Background Pony #F2D9
selling traced stuff is never ok, even if it is only one instance. How can you trust an artist that is willing to sell traced artwork? He has the occasion to apologize, instead he goes like “it’s not traced, there are slight alteration and i added some stuff”.
 
I hope he can learn the lesson before actually becoming the new Drawpony.  
And yes, i might have gotten a bit too angry, but still, selling traced work is never ok and he deserves to be called out on it, even more if he keeps acting like he did nothing wrong in the face of obvious proof.
LightningBolt
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Senior Moderator
Undead inside
Just gonna say, keep the discussion here and don’t put it on any images, if no one listens after collective warning number three, which this is, I’ll stop being ‘nice’. Seeing as I’m not being nice right now to start with.
 
Imo, one image is one image, I don’t see a big deal about it, or a reason to form such an angry mob and probably bring this event up years in the future like you do with Drawponies. Forgive and forget is a foreign concept these days.
Background Pony #F2D9
@Zebasiz  
ok, we don’t know that, but even taking the least grave possibility, isn’t that false advertisment? Like to attract people or showing off.
 
And still, i would like to hear him addressing this issue maturely, instead of going “i’m not tracing, you are an idiot”.  
And i wanna keep anonimity to avoid being targeted. It happened to me once that i called out someone on something and he made his mission to ruin my social network experience (not here on db tho, but i wanted to explain why i keep anonymus)
HectorSmash
Charitable Contributor - Contributed to a series of art packs that helped raise over $10,000 for charity
Artist -

@Zebasiz  
I’m glad you’re willing to be understanding and reasonable about this discussion. I’ll try to better explain things from my point of view, and in order of how you listed them.
 
I see nothing wrong with attacking someone for something they definitely did, especially for a severe breach of trust such as tracing or selling stolen artwork. His annoyance means nothing to me. Though I will say, the previous threads spent a lot of time arguing about nothing. It could have been condensed to about 20 posts max, I think.
 
His offering to seek information is also worthless. Lip service is one thing, actions are another. If or when he ponies up the videos, I’ll be happy to humble myself and apologize for calling him a tracer. I doubt he will (or even can) because of how utterly obvious it is that he traced that picture, but I extend that courtesy to anyone I call out. I never use BP for this very reason. I am willing to bet that he won’t provide any sort of proof whatsoever.
 
The evidence is pretty damning. As a freehand artist, it is very hard to copy lines exactly, even with tracing.
 
Again, I think the scope of a single comment section is small enough to prevent any sort of backlash. Or at least, it would have been, if Toxic-Mario and another moderator hadn’t decided to escalate things. As I said before, dealing with an ethical breach doesn’t have to turn into a mountain of pain. It’s trivial to just say, “Oh, oops, my bad. I’ll fix that in the future.” It’s the attitude of the accused artist and the subsequent string of blatant lies and condescension that turns the issue into something much greater than it ever was before.
 
 
@LightningBolt  
The collective consciousness has a hard time forgetting things that were blown way out of proportion. Ever heard of the Streisand Effect? Not to mention, there’s no forgiving a person who has done nothing to warrant forgiveness. You don’t forgive someone who shows no desire or signs of changing; that’s not forgiveness, that’s idiocy. The best thing you can do for them is a firm reminder that certain behaviors are too far. If they make it a bigger deal than that by trying to lie and deny, well, that’s their problem.
LightningBolt
Umbrella - For Patreon supporters
Lightning Dee - Derpi Supporter
Silly Pony - Celebrated the 13th anniversary of MLP:FIM, and 40 years of MLP!
Shimmering Smile - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of Equestria Girls!
Lunar Hero - Went above and beyond in the name of Lunar freedom, they will be remembered in legends and folklore as paragons of heroism for generations (April Fools 2023).
Flower Trio - Helped others get their OC into the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Roseluck - Had their OC in the 2023 Derpibooru Collab.
Chaotic Little Trees - 1000+ images under their artist tag
King Sombra - Celebrated the 10th anniversary of The Crystal Empire!
A Lovely Nightmare Night - Celebrated the 12th anniversary of MLP:FIM!

Senior Moderator
Undead inside
@HectorSmash  
So let them deal with their problem versus harassing them and bugging them about it? Maybe it’s stressful to deal with so many people heckling them all at once?
 
And don’t get disillusioned into thinking I’m on a ‘side’ here, because I’m not.
Background Pony #AF39
Can I ask why mods defend Toxic-Mario so much? He was caught tracing so obviously commenting on traced images makes sense. But you try to make those comments less visible. Why?
Zebasiz
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Artist -

@wenni  
That first pic seems to be a simple reference, since even the hands look to be drawn differently, not to mention the legs.  
Same with the second, again just going by positioning of wrist and shape of the body, though the shoulder seems similar.
 
So, for those two, it seems more like yes, the images were used as a visual reference, but not actual tracing happened. But I’m not a good judge for that~
 
 
@HectorSmash  
Yeah I can totally understand where your coming from. Right now I think it’s a matter of wait and see what Mario does with the situation.
Background Pony #F2D9
@LightningBolt  
The point is that he doesn’t see anything wrong with selling traced artwork. I can’t tell if he was lying to cover his face or if he actually thinks that is an ok behaviour.  
If he keeps with that mentality he’ll probably do it again. I think he should take the chance to apologize and figure out it’s not okay, so that everyone will stop being angry about it.
 
 
@wenni  
those two indeed look referenced and not traced. That’s ok. The erza one had enough mistakes to look genuine, i would investigate more on asuna-shy and kill la kill dash tho.
HectorSmash
Charitable Contributor - Contributed to a series of art packs that helped raise over $10,000 for charity
Artist -

@LightningBolt  
That’s the issue here. Unless we create it, he has no problem. What you call “harassing them and bugging them about it” IS the problem he has to deal with. And why? Because of the breach of trust. It’s simply unfair to expect the art community as a whole to be silent about that problem, while simultaneously allowing the problem artist to continue creating the problem.
Background Pony #252F
@Background Pony #2D44  
Well the explanation, which I could agree with when Wenny said it, is that it clutters up the comments. The comments section wasn  
t really “made” for full on discussion of this level, that’s what the forum is for
 
I do agree that now that this is out of sight out of mind for Toxic, he has no reason to come clean because the pressure is no longer mounting.
 
 
@LightningBolt  
Traceponies didn’t deal with it until pressured to  
Some people just don’t care until they see that people actually care
Zebasiz
Bronze Bit -
Friendly Griffon - For helping others attend the fifth anniversary party
Friendship, Art, and Magic (2017) - Celebrated Derpibooru's five year anniversary with friends.
A Perfectly Normal Pony - <Zeb> That's why yer female partner can use a trapon
Magnificent Metadata Maniac - #1 Assistant
Artist -

@Background Pony #2D44  
So far I haven’t seen any mods speak in direct defense of TM. As for the comment threads: That’s the site rules in general. Image comments are not the place to be having this kind discussion, as was mentioned several times on page 1 of this thread.
Background Pony #F2D9
@LightningBolt  
the point is that he kinda deserved that treatment. Now, did we go too far? maybe.  
But when caught instead of apologizing he started outright negating the evidence and avoiding questions as much as possible, digging the grave deeper and making the accusers even angrier.  
Now i’m calm, and the only thing is to wait and see what he will say. He shows no intention of wanting to address the fact that he traces so far.
Background Pony #F2D9
still, even if that is the only traced pic at least i want him to at least acknowledge it, so that he will stop doing that.  
And if he stops more power to him, i would much prefer this outcome, instead of risking this thing to go on and actually turning into the next drawpony.
 
Toxic, if you’re reading this, trust me. Don’t trace. People will eventually find out and you will lose all the trust you worked hard to build. It’s kinda like doping. It might help you get some easy achievements, but it will destroy your career if you get discovered using it.  
And it won’t do good for your actual skills.
HectorSmash
Charitable Contributor - Contributed to a series of art packs that helped raise over $10,000 for charity
Artist -

I’m interested as to a position on this behavior, going forward. Talking about the tracing, of course - angry comments are perfectly vulnerable as always.
 
As I said before, the only way to really affect bad artist behavior is to give them a problem to worry about. Fix the behavior, and the problem goes away. Can there be, finally, some kind of official way to punish artists for dishonest behavior? A mark of shame for unrepentant liars, hiding the problem images from search, etc. These are pretty extreme suggestions, I know, but I haven’t really thought about it much, so there. Even simple understanding from the mods of why this is such a big issue, and how commenting is really the only productive outlet, would be very helpful. I don’t mean anything like comment immunity, just a more interested stance from the moderation team would make it much easier to quickly and gently correct people who may be cutting some corners.
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